New guy with a few questions and a story

B

BigEasyRider

New member
Hello my name is chris I have been lurking on here searching posts and so on and now have a few questions. I was given a 78 traveler and am in the process of trying to get it running better. It ran when I got it but barely,I had to put it in 4-low just to get her to pull up on the trailer. Smelled terribly Rich. The po had put a cheap purolator brand inline electric pump on between the tank and the mechanical pump but still flowing through the mechanical pump. The elec pump was on a toggle switch and did not change the way that the 304 ran whatsoever so I have eliminated that from the mix. They had replaced the pulgs with ngk platinums and new wires but left the old cap and rotor which had alot of carbon buildup. I replaced the plugs with autolite 85's and new cap and rotor on the prestolite electronic ignition. I was really expecting some improvement with all these changes and saw none so I turned to the carb. From what I can find on the various forums that I have searched I have an aftermarket Holley 2300 series with a electric choke. The fuel inlet enters at an upward angle as opposed to directly into the side of the fuel bowl. Carb is stamped with 4412-3 on the air inlet horn. I sprayed around the base of the carb with carb cleaner engine idle really picked up and smoothed out so I pulled the carb and inspected the base gaskets and they look very good. I was told the carb had a kit done since it was purchased and the gaskets were pretty good looking. I put the carb back on and capped all vaccum lines except the vaccum advance and the direct vaccum port off manifold to brake booster. Still runs like crap. There was a large amount of white corrosion all around the carb in the valleys where the intake manifold bolts are like there has been an ongoing fuel leak so I blew all that out of there and find a crack in the intake manifold directly below the throttle linkage on what I beleive would be the exhaust heat riser portion of the manifold. The area gets very hot (compared to other intake runners) and all the paint is burnt off there so I assume it is for heat from exhaust to warm the choke. Anyways carb cleaner sprayed on the crack makes the idle increase and smooth out. So I think this crack has to be pretty severe and exhaust is being pulled into the intake as well as fresh air. I am wondering if this carb is optimal for my stock 304. I read there are 500cfm two barrels and am unsure if thats what I have. I also am looking for a used intake I have posted up on the for sale area but not getting to much feedback. Are there any recomendations of used IH parts suppliers. I would think there are a ton of 304 two barrel intakes out there from four barrel swaps and total engine swaps. This will be a perfect time to pull the vally pan and valve covers to paint and reaseal as this truck does leak oil from the top end. I really appreciate any input from everyone and am sorry if this is to long winded.
 
So I surfed around Holley's website and found the part# 0-4412 which is what I have and they describe this as a 500cfm carb. Should I be looking for a 350cfm part# 0-7448? It seems many feel that 500cfm is too much carb for my stock 304.
 
Normally, if the idle increases when carb cleaner is sprayed around the base gaskets it would indicate a vacuum leak. With the crack in the intake manifold exhaust crossover, and no other vacuum leaks being noted, I'd suspect that the carb cleaner is being introduced into the combustion chamber via the egr valve which is normally closed at idle. It May be stuck in the open position, allowing exhaust gasses and the carb cleaner to enter the combustion chambers.

I'd check this by first, reaching a finger under the valve and pushing up on the diaphram to see if the idle drops even further. You should also be able to operate the valve with a mighty vac. Although I have seen valves that worked via the turn your head and cough method but not by the vacuum applied method which indicates a tear in the diaphram. If the diaphram is already up, the valve is stuck open. Remove the valve and you May be able to clean it and get it operational again.

While you had the carburetor off, did you notice whether the two holes on the floor of the plenum were open or clogged with carbon? They should be open. You can use a pick or small screwdriver to dig the carbon out while at the same time using a vacuum cleaner to suck up the dust.

Another very big possibility is that who ever rebuilt the carburetor had no idea what he was doing. Perhaps another rebuild is in order.
 
What ron said x2. You likely have some vacuum issues that need to be addressed regardless of carb, but from what Mike mayben has stated numerous times, you'll probably never be satisfied with the way your engine will run so long as you have that one in place. It's much more of a performance carb than your 304 in stock trim will ever be able to use.
 
Thanks for the responses and pointing me towards that link. I was happy after getting the truck home to find a nice carb under the hood now I guess I will need to throw it on ebay and try to find a decent 7448 that has already been rebuilt and setup close to what my truck needs. I purchased a intake manifold from coonrods in Colorado. I was referred to him from lightline 4x4 of baton rouge la and he seemed like a really nice guy parts from.
 
I've not given up on tweaking a 4412 to work onna 345...I've put a lot of time into working with a guy back east on this and Holley has sent him some various metering blocks to try with fairly decent results so far. But we're not ready to discuss this in public yet. I have several 4412 carbs myself and they are extremely popular with the circle track crowd as a rules/class carb. That carb is only supplied as a manual choke version. It's is possible to convert to an electric choke by using a proper "external vacuum" conversion kit...the companion list 7448 modular 2300 carb uses a different electric choke kit so they do not interchange. And while those two carbs appear similar on the outside, their internal circuitry is totally different, thus they must be treated as individual instruments and not be treated as the "same".

It's not an issue of the carb being "too large" in airflow rating...that is easily delt with. The problem is that all metering circuits are huge in order to work with the intended use of that carb...and simply jetting down and leaning other circuits inna redneck fashion won't do the job. It's much more complicated than that.

But some success has been noted...and in fact, I've set one up to run on my 392 with an rpt intake manifold so I can run a comparison as regards improving trailer towing suitability. And I've got another in process for a guy who wants to run e85 (against my better judgment) in a purpose-built Scout II as a exercise in futility. And yes, the fuel delivery system has been totally modded for immersion in e85, this is not just some kind of poorboy approach.

But my advice is right now...the 4412 needs to b put on the shelf or traded. A 7448 list is the best 2v carb you can use for a 266/304/345 and is infinitely tunable in all it's circuits but needs nothing out of the box though some rejetting May be needed for optimum performance on any single application.

Here at ihon we have every conceivable used intake manifold configuration ya could ever want in our experienced parts stash...2v, 4v, egr, non-egr, even a spreadbore or two though I think it's a real mistake to go that route due to very limited (and expensive) carb selection. Etc.

You are fartin' in the breeze regarding a dial-in on any carb until ya have taken care of every potential vacuum leak source. And once that's accomplished, the ignition must be fully up to speed. Only then do ya deal with setting up a proper carb.

I rebuild carbs every week that are described to me as "just rebuilt"!!! Ya oughtta see some the trashy mixers I get..including carbs from some "national" remanners that are severely fubar'd.

Any oem sv motor that has never had the intake removed for cleanup has several vacuum leaks I can assure you! Most especially around the heat riser/crossover where the intake gaskets have most likely been eaten. This is a simple "lack of maintenance" issue and not a design problem. It's very easy to handle once the valley/lifter cover is resealed.
 
Last edited:
Michael you mention that you are frequently rebuilding these carburetor is that a service you do through ihon? It sure seems like you know your stuff and it would be nice to have a carburetor that has a great baseline setup out of the box tailored to my elevation (or lack of elevation here in new orleans) I know that only a baseline can be established and every engine is unique in its own ways so tweaking would always be required. The other option is to just buy a new 7448 if thats what you recommend. I am pretty comfortable that my ignition is now up to snuff. I am holding off on doing anymore tuning until I have resealed the valley pan, valve covers, exhaust manifolds and replacement intake manifold that is coming from coonrods IH parts in Colorado. I have capped all vacuum sources and destinations except brake booster which I am giving full vacuum from intake manifold and timed vacuum from the passenger front vacuum port on the carburetor base. Am I correct for thinking that these are the only to required vacuum lines? I plan to fab an egr block off plate to eliminate the valve completely on the new intake as well as installing plugs into the vacuum trees off the intake. Emissions are not checked here so that is of no concern.

Attached is a photo of the crack in the intake
 

Attachments

  • intake.jpg
    intake.jpg
    50.4 KB · Views: 1,134
Yes, ihon offers a carb reconditioning service. And in some cases reconditioned carbs are on the shelf but that is dependent upon availability of proper cores for each application.

For ihon customer work, the mixer is normally drop-shipped directly to me, I perform the work, wet test the reconditioned unit, and then return it to the customer directly with a packing slip/invoice generated by ihon. Any needed gaskets,etc. That are needed for mounting will be packed with the carb along with any particular instructions regarding how to make the plumbing and vacuum connections.

If an exchange carb is selected, then the customer returns the core to me and once I receive it and inspect, then ihon will generate a credit/refund for the core charge.

This is a personalized carburetor service that can't be duplicated by simply obtaining a carb off the I-net in some fashion or from a retail storefront. And buying carb cores off ebay is an extremely risky situation, I deal with those regularly that are botched beyond use and are rarely as represented in any ebay listing. I always assume that ebay carbs are only suitable as parts donors.

In your case though, you would be really wasting money in attempting to use that list 4412! Put it up for sale and some circletracker will snap it up quickly!

We're working now to have a selection of some reconditioned common list number 2210/2210c carbs on the shelf at ihon to fill the demand for those oem carbs that some customers want. The price for those is very attractive as compared to cost involved in setting up a new 2300/list 7448. Occasionally, we have a used/reconditioned 7448 on the shelf ready to go, I delivered one to ihon week before last but it May have been sold by now. Any of those carbs I do are already jetted and have any necessary mods made so that they are as close to plug and play as can be expected.

But..since you are buried in this deal now and have multiple issues to deal with, I'd take care of sealing the top end completely and get that out of the way. Then drop that 4412 back on you will be able to start the motor and verify all systems, check for leaks after resealing, etc. Then ya can make a decision as to what to use for a carb. The 4412 will certainly start and run the motor, but performance will suk and most likely "tip-in" will be very frustrating.

Your appraisal of the vacuum plumbing is correct...except when mounting the 4412, the vacuum port you describe is full manifold vacuum, ya don't want to run the distributor advance from that port!

The 4412 has a totally different vacuum port arrangement as compared to it's companion 7448!! Again, they are not the same carb though they are of the same model series (2300). You need to connect your distributor to that vacuum port that is behind the passenger side/front mounting ear, the one that normally comes out at an angle and is a larger diameter nipple. That is the "ported" or "timed" vacuum signal on the 4412 carb...it's pick-up point is above the passenger side throttle plate in the throttle body.

You also May have to mod somewhat the pcv vacuum port/plumbing on the used replacement manifold, that is totally dependent upon what version of a 304 it came from...there are many variations of those manifolds including many that have no egr incorporated. And some don't have the cutaway area under the throttle linkage side to allow the use of an aftermarket carb without using a spacer!!

In the case of the 4412 though, the pcv can be plumbed directly into the 3/8" port provided on the rear of the throttle body if needed (or ya can take booster vacuum from that point).

If you need pics to clarify all this let me know. I have one complete/fresh 4412 for sale now (still listed in the classifieds) and two more are in line to go in the soak tank as the first step in reconditioning so taking shots of details of these mixers is very easy.

That cracked heat riser casting is a fairly common occurrence regarding the sv intake manifolds.

In preparation for your resealing operation, ya might wanna review this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/carb-tech/76-beer-can-maneefol-guapo.html

And when ya got absolutely nothing to do, are bored to tears, and need some entertainment, then read through every thread her in the "carb tech" sub-forum and you will learn much regarding scruuin' with old iron and carbs! Our intention is to make this area the factual place to go for carb-related info in regards to the IH product line...we don't deal in bs and "maybes"...many of our members have become quite competent in dealing with oldskool fuel system stuff over the last three years! There was point in time when scoutboy74 was beyond hope...but now he can pick up any slack though it May take him two or three tries!
 
Michael,
I am leaning towards buying a new 0-7448 or Holley refurb 65-7448. Buying the refurb saves about $45.00 I assume that the electric choke on my 4412 will not swap over as Holley is listing a different part# for the 4412. I am ok with a manual choke as I am at (or below) sea level and it is always warm down here in new orleans. I can always convert to electric if I move back up north. I can use the choke lever and cable for a hand throttle then. I beleive this carb will come out of the box with a 30cc accel pump and #61 or #62 mains. Do you feel that these will be optimal for my elevation or lack there of? I am interested in getting to know this carb that is why I am not buying one that you have already set up. That sounds easy but thats not gonna teach me anything. What additional parts do you think that I will need to buy to make this new carb run like it should. I will need a base gasket which I will be getting from ihon. Stock 304 90,000 miles, stock manifolds (intake and exhaust) open element air cleaner.
Thank you very much in advance.
 
Last edited:
You are correct about swapping the electric choke conversions, the 4412 uses an "external" vacuum source unit, the main body is not machined to allow an internal vacuum signal to the choke pulloff which is inside the choke housing. A 7448 uses an "internal vacuum" electric choke set. And the "fast idle" conversion systems included with each choke kit operate in a different manner also.

One more reason why the 4412 and the 7448 are "not the same".

An electric choke system offers advantages above a simple "cold start" situation. And ambient temperature is not an issue regarding cold starts and hot restarts. Ambient is a relative situation,..."cold" is considered to be any temperature at which the engine assembly is stabilized such as after an eight hour "soak" without having been started. 90f at midnight in nawlins is just as "cold" to any engine as 103f at 2pm in August here in my parking lot...or 35f as it is right now. Not too many places in the continental u.s. I'm not familiar with after having spent 12 years on the road as a field service engineer in the automotive climate control industry.

But for now, a manual choke works ok once ya learn how to use it without flooding the motor.

The accel pump setup on the 7448 is ok out of the box and is simply a starting point. Just changing the screw position on the actuator cam makes a significant difference in pump shot. There is never a need to use a 50cc pump system on any IH application.

Likewise for the jetting, ya simply have to try it and adjust as needed for your particular engine/vehicle. But...you must optimize the ignition system before attempting to dial in any carb. You can't go back and forth between the two in working out any glitches

hood clearance at the air cleaner is an issue with any Scout II (unless it has a body lift)...same for diameter due to the position of the thermostat housing/water neck. A "drop base" filter won't work. A filter with on offset opening is an aid however so that the filter can be rotated to the rear to provide additional clearance.

Throttle cable connection is straightforward, simply moving the oem ballstud to the new carb. But you must verify that the throttle does travel completely between both limits and that the butterflies do not interfere in the base gasket/intake manifold. A dual spring throttle return system must be installed so that it pulls in the same plane (parallel) to the throttle cable. The coil spring on the throttle shaft on some of these carbs is not a return spring...it is simply a hedge against a product liability issue.
 
Thanks michael. I have had manual chokes on some of my older junk and it always worked ok but my wife hates them. I called ihon and Jeff said that they had a oem carb on the shelf with electric choke for 275.00 he did not specify what model as we did not go that far into specifics. I am really on the fence about what to do about thsi carb issue. I feel that it will probably be more economical to just go through Jeff (not to mention supporting a great member of the IH community) but I also feel like thats taking the easy way out. I guess I have a little soul searching to do about what to buy. I have so many things I want to do to this Scout that I should probably just go with the cheapest solution. I will have 300 bucks into a brand new carb + gaskets before I even start tuning. Ignition on the vehicle sure seems up to par vac advance is working properly starts and idles wel just getting to much fuel from that 500cfm carb tip in is terrible.
 
bigeasyrider said:
thanks michael. I have had manual chokes on some of my older junk and it always worked ok but my wife hates them. I called ihon and Jeff said that they had a oem carb on the shelf with electric choke for 275.00 he did not specify what model as we did not go that far into specifics. I am really on the fence about what to do about thsi carb issue. I feel that it will probably be more economical to just go through Jeff (not to mention supporting a great member of the IH community) but I also feel like thats taking the easy way out. I guess I have a little soul searching to do about what to buy. I have so many things I want to do to this Scout that I should probably just go with the cheapest solution. I will have 300 bucks into a brand new carb + gaskets before I even start tuning. Ignition on the vehicle sure seems up to par vac advance is working properly starts and idles wel just getting to much fuel from that 500cfm carb tip in is terrible.
Click to expand...

The 2300 mixer Jeff has on the shelf is a side-hung float version, oem carb. It was reconditioned from a really nice core in late September (by me) and is as fresh as a new one and is already jetted for any IH 304/345 app. Good 2300 cores that are designed for hot air/electric choke apps are very hard to come by these days, that one was exceptional.

A new 7448 would have absolutely no operational advantage over that reconditioned carb, and by the time it's properly set up/installed will run in excess of $500!

I deal with folks every day who are attempting to do this same thing on the cheap, attempting to use boneyard cores and even worse..."ebay specials" and end up with nothing but empty pockets and junk carbs that are only suitable as parts donors (maybe).

This pic is a companion mixer to the one on the shelf at ihon...a hot air choke (2300c) that has been converted to full electric choke.
 

Attachments

  • Typical OEM 2300 Electric.jpg
    Typical OEM 2300 Electric.jpg
    90.9 KB · Views: 1,050
Thanks for the insight it is nice to be able to talk to the guy that had his hands on the carb. Thats not a service Holley is going to offer I am sold on the carb Jeff has. Thanks

update due to unforseen family matters will be spending binder money on trip back home to south dakota to help my folks through somthing. I guess I will be putting the traveler on hold for awhile.
 
Last edited:
So I am back to work on the IH. After the hustle of the holidays I called up Jeff to buy myself the electric choke 2300 that was on the shelf over at ihon and it was sold. Jeff said he could line me up with a manual choke version stock style carb and I decided to take a few days to ponder this and my wife springs a late xmas present on me, a new 7448. This is a good woman. So I have the replacement intake blasted and have now pulled my valve covers and valley pan off to throw in the blast cabinet to hopefully reassemble this weekend. One question that I have is there a specific torque sequence that IH reccomended for the intake like start from center criss-crossing over manifold workin my way out? I plan to use felpro intake manifold gaskets with two coats per side copper spray and using new hardware. Michael, do you feel that permatex #2 is a decent product to apply to each intake bolt if I am unable to find permatex hylomar locally? From what I have read 30ft/lbs should be sufficient torque? Is there any additional hints you would like to throw out there? I really would like to do this right the first time.
Thanks in advance and look forward to getting this thing back together to start fine tuning.
 
Last edited:
Old fashioned p-tex #2 works just fine!!! I hate that shit from many years of fighting cleanup of the stuff, but...it is super for sealing those bolt threads!!!

When I do the manifold re-install, I run all the bolts in "snug" (little over finger tight but that will be difficult with the p-tex mess!). Then starting in the center and working your way out towards both ends in a circular pattern, take the bolts to Edit 30 ft./lbs. In four increments. You are setting up crush inna steel shim gasket and it luvs that kinda treatment!

It's a beeotch getting a torque wrench on some of those bolts though, so most of the time u use that highly-experienced torque wrench I was born with in my right elbow. The left elbow is the metric torque wrench.

Your wife is highly encouraged to come up here for vacshun and stay for at least three months! We need many more folks with her perception of need vs. Want up here in this kuntry!

Hope your family issues turned out for the best, we're glad your hangin' in there!
 
Last edited:
So michael just so I am clear you feel that the final torque should be 16ft/lbs and you reccomend that I tighten all bolts to four pounds starting from center then working out then 8 ft/lbs then 12...... And so on until I reach 16ft/lbs? I just want to be clear I have read a few posts and have seen recomendations for torque ranging from 30 ft/lbs up to 50ft/lbs. I am going with whatever you say just wanna make sure you are saying end at 16 ft/lbs as opposed go to 16 ft/lbs then you are crushed and can proceed directly to 30 ft/lbs.

Thanks again

as a side note about the vacation we are due before too long. My father in law lives in roseburg and the last time we were there I swore I needed to bring the harley next time cuz that country was just too pretty to see it all from the inside of the car. I would love to swing through the shop just to say hello and grab a sticker or a t-shirt if they sell em. The redwoods and crater lake were just too much to describe to those that have never been there.
 
Shit man, you are correct, I typed the wrong dam value!!! I have edited the other post, the torque is 30ft./lbs. In four steps!

I was in the middle of an email to another member who is doing an engine build also, and I was telling him the torque value for a 5/16" fastener...I just typed the same dam thang in your response! Sorry! You kids must watch me all the time, I'm an old fooker!

Hail man, roseburg is just a suburb of leaburg, about an hour away! We got great friends there who have a huge collection of fine Scout II and fullsize stuff (along witha new kenworth).

So yawl make plans to spend a few days here at the binder university b&b, everyone else does! We're at milepost 20 on hiway 126 (mckenzie river hiway), gotta shopshack we live in with alotta movin' water in the front yard, it ain't white but above and below us it is.

Again, sorry for the wrong info! Hope ya ain't twisted no bolts off!!

By the way, I spent 24 years in the motorcycle industry before I started my last career! Small world huh??
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top