Need some Tech Advice on Camshafts

Here is a photo of my 152 I tore apart, the camshaft bearing in it is lined up perfectly and there is no lip... How the hell did they manage that!!!
1525.jpg


1525a.jpg
 
Outstanding man!!! What you see on the #5 cam bearing position is the bastards knocked it in too far! And that right there is exactly why so many of our customers have the "lifter noise" issue after they have an engine done!!!!

Not only is the feed hole to the bearing partially blocked, the channel to the lifter gallery will be restricted also.

Even if the service part bearing is perfectly installed, it usually overhangs the gallery feed slot a tad. That is why I fair that area in...to insure full oil volume to the lifter gallery.

Installing cam bearings in any engine is a very tedious operation. And because the cam bearings in the ihc-manufactured engines are critical in their "metering" function for both the rocker arm system and the hydraulic lifters, they are even more tedious to install correctly.

Many machinists and engine guys think we're fulla shit about this...but then once they have to eat one single customer job, they suddenly become experts. We work with folks from all over the world about this issue (you folks have no idea of the volume of requests for information we receive that are not through this forum!), then they wanna argue that this is not critical because "they don't have this trouble with fords or chevrolets". So...at that point I simply ask 'em "why did you contact us if you think you know what to do"??

I will say, that after inspecting hundreds of oem cam bearings knocked out of various engines, the original bearings for the most part are about 0.050" smaller in width than the common aftermarket replacements such as the durabond brand we use. Same for the clevites and other aftermarket replacements. Therefore, once properly installed with the oil holes perfectly aligned, some work is always needed at the lifter gallery slot(s). That is simply part of attention to detail that makes the difference between success and failure for an engine builder.

Let's move on, what to do about this now...

I do not advise simply having the machine shop knock the #5 on through the block and then trying to re-install it correctly. That bearing od was "reduced" when it went in, and if you try and re-use it, it will not be the proper dimension for retention in the saddle. And I bet your "machine shop guy" will tell you that my position is fulla shit too!

Cam bearings are only sold in sets of five. So obtaining a single bearing is out of the question for the most part unless someone has some pull with the bearing supplier, they are too inexpensive to mess with in that regard anyway.

An alternative...the block can be placed on a solid surface and the engine stand mounting head removed to allow full access to that #5 bearing position. Then the "short" knocker handle can be installed on the correct cam bearing arbor, then inserted into the bearing and carefully snugged up just as if you were installing the bearing in the normal fashion. Then using careful hits with a dead-blow hammer, that bearing could be moved backward and positioned correctly. That is what the machine shop would do to correct this mistake, they would not replace all of the bearings typically, they would begrudgingly shortcut this "fix".

But...you must now verify all the other bearing positions, you May find other problems as well. If so, that engine needs to go back to the folks that you paid to do this job correctly and they need to eat it!

Aren't ya glad you asked about the cam???

For some additional information regarding "cam bearings" and the tool used for removal and installation, check this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/gas-engine-tech/3783-cam-bearing-questions.html
 
Last edited:
I called the machine shop this morning and told them I had not had a chance to check #2, 3 and 4 bearing but I have checked #5 and told them it was pushed in too far and is blocking the oil galley and the hole isn't lining up properly which restricts oil flow.

He told me to bring it in, show them what was wrong and they would fix it.

When I take it to them, I'm going to tell them, if you knock that bearing out, I want them replaced, to fix this, they must do like you said or I want all of them replaced.
 
Michael,
ok, I will be checking the remainder cam bearings tonight. Before I do so, I want to go over your instructions to me so I do this right and understand it all. First of all, I looked at #1 and it does indeed look good to go, it's lined up and holes are lined up, I will re-check just to make sure, but I feel it looks good. Looks nothing like how #5 is lined up.

#2&#3 is checked with a mirror and flashlight, you mentioned that on an I-4 engine those spit holes do not lead anywhere except into the crankshaft. Couple of questions on this, why are you mentioning that? Are you telling me that to tell me that is where I put the mirror or something?

You said you use a long drill bit or a dowel to check the position all the way through the cam bearing, which cam bearing? #4?

Thank you, I can't believe how much I've learned over the past 4 days. Wow!
 
michael,
ok, I will be checking the remainder cam bearings tonight. Before I do so, I want to go over your instructions to me so I do this right and understand it all. First of all, I looked at #1 and it does indeed look good to go, it's lined up and holes are lined up, I will re-check just to make sure, but I feel it looks good. Looks nothing like how #5 is lined up.

#2 is checked with a mirror and flashlight, you mentioned that on an I-4 engine those spit holes do not lead anywhere except into the crankshaft. Couple of questions on this, why are you mentioning that? Are you telling me that to tell me that is where I put the mirror or something?

You said you use a long drill bit or a dowel to check the position all the way through the cam bearing, which cam bearing? #4?

Thank you, I can't believe how much I've learned over the past 4 days. Wow!

Cam bearing (and bearing saddle) #4 is the feed up to the rocker stand, that in turns feeds the rocker shaft for lubrication the upper valve train. You can make a visual inspection of that "hole alignment", it must also be perfect! I use the aircraft-type drill bit because it's easy on my eyes and I can see it come through the hole during the installation process and I can make any correction right then. The drill bit in the picture is to illustrate this oil hole position for folks who aren't familiar with this stuff and to show how the head gasket seals that port.

On another forum, folks advise to run a drill bit all the way through the oil spit hole in the cylinder head and down into the cam bearing saddle...that cannot be done and should never be attempted! There is an "offset" of the hole in the head, with the hole in the block!!! Do not try and "fix" something that ain't broke, that engineered design is there for a reason!!!

All cam bearing oil holes lead somewhere, they have to be fed from the main oil gallery. But...#1, #4, and #5 all do double duty also and direct oil to additional components and assemblies. Go back to that document I linked and print off the engine lubrication diagram and you will fully understand the entire lubrication path. If you were dealing with an sv engine, cam bearing #2 does the same thing as #4 as it feeds oil to the driver side rocker assembly which your engine of course does not have.

So when inspecting the remainder of the cam bearing positionings, you must have perfect alignment of the oil holes that you can verify with the mirror, no "overhang" at all

I certainly think that having the machine shop that did this install,...fix it! Had you assembled this engine with no close inspection, you would have extreme lifter noise, and then you would have been posting here like most other folks for help in determining "why". So a very expensive diy project could have turned to shit real quick and I know your wife would not be impressed at all! Not only that, the "machine shop" would deny entirely any culpability regarding the "noise" and most likely blow it off to..."they all sound like that".

Here's another shot of the new #5 cam bearing properly installed that shows how much "overhang" was present blocking the feed to the oil gallery with this particular bearing set. The bearings in this build are durabond in-11 which are the go-to product for IH applications. What that means is...even with the bearing in the proper position for oil hole alignment in the saddle, the feed to the lifter gallery still requires attention in many cases (but not always!).

We have seen a similar issue with new #1 cam bearings because the two oil holes were not properly indexed when the bearing was manufactured. One hole would align correctly but not the other! That is a simple fix, simply use the dremel to "adjust" the oil hole as needed, again, these are the skills that an experienced engine builder knows to use since most likely at some time in the past, they had to eat a job that they overlooked these nuances on! It is these nuances that for any engine build are the difference between success and failure.
 

Attachments

  • Five cam bearing fitment.jpg
    Five cam bearing fitment.jpg
    48.4 KB · Views: 357
Mump...

I'm moving your thread into the "gas engine tech" sub-forum which helps make it more easily searchable for the future. This topic is an outstanding example of all the potential problems many folks face when doing this type work!

Some members develop tunnel-vision in dealing with and researching stuff around here and simply do not run through all the topics on a regular basis!
 
Oh, I promise you, they will fix this and they will fix this properly. I'm sooooo pissed at them for messing this up, I am so freaking lucky how things have went down the past few days to lead me into finding this out.

Thank you michael
 
Ok, so, let me update my findings.

First one is the #1 cam bearing, bottom hole looked perfect, top hole looks kind of like it's protruding but with closer inspection that hole is kind of angled into the cam area so I feel confident with that cam bearing position.

#2 and #3, basically these two cam bearings have two holes in them but only one hole is functional which is the 6:eek:'clock position hole... Correct? These holes look to be in perfect position and once again I feel comfortable these cam bearing positions.

#4 - this is the one I was scared the most about and I hope I was able to do a good enough inspection with the light and mirror. I was able to take an extension mirror and run it from the front of the engine and into the cam bearing #4 and shine a light into the engine from the lifter hole and rotate the mirror until I could see the hole from the top. It looked to be in perfect position. I then shined my light in the oil hole between the 3&4 pistons and it shines a perfect little circle onto the cam bearing which makes me feel comfortable with it's position.

So, with all of that said, it looks like I am going to be able to take the engine into the machine shop and have them follow your directions for pushing my cam bearing forward just a tad so the oil gallery is clear and the hole isn't restricted.

What say you michael?

Rangers lead the way!
 
Nice work...now you know what to do and look for next time!

I agree with your findings, have the gumbas move the #5 into proper position!

If I was abit further along in my own four-holer engine build, I'd post a how-to regarding installing cam bearings. But the block is going back out soon for the bore job and decking. I don't want the new cam bearings in the block while that stuff is going on, and the block will have to be cleaned again after that also.

That engine build can be found here:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/gas-engine-tech/1144-ultimate-IH-fourbanger.html
 
I left a lot of things up to the machine shop and things went wrong. Next time every detail will be double checked by myself. The front passenger side lifter gallery plug was left out by the machine shop which caused a lot of un-necessary bs in my life.

The other thing that bugs me about my 304 build was that I was unclear on the need to increase compression ration slightly for the isky cam to really perform like it should. Instead the compression ratio is probably slightly lower than stock due to thicker new style head gaskets. The other unknown is what exactly did the silvolite pistions do for the compression ratio? Also maybe I should have advanced the cam slightly with an offset camkey. That's all history now cause its under the hood and being driven anyway. It runs ok and a hell of a lot better than it did with the old flat cam and mushroomed lifters. Just thought I would share some of my frustrations. I did check the cam bearings though and they got those right the first time around.
 
Last edited:
Your rocker shafts were delivered late yesterday evening mump!

One is a boat-type (the clean one), and one is a welded rocker type, both nine stand. I stripped the welded rocker unit out this afternoon and put the parts in the soak tank for preliminary cleaning and will have more info regarding "wear" at that point.

In determining which system is best for your application...what is the condition of all the pushrods? Inspect each closely for any evidence of "bend", and look very carefully at the "cup" end of the welded rocker pushrods, we're looking for tiny cracks forming in the cup area.

More to come...
 
Last edited:
Michael, I will look tonight at my push rods, hell I have no clue as to where the cup type rods are even at since I had planned on using the boat rocker arm assembly. Let me hunt them down. I know that the push rods for the boat rocker arm assembly are good to go, but I haven't even looked at the cup push rods, I'll have to find those.
 
michael, I will look tonight at my push rods, hell I have no clue as to where the cup type rods are even at since I had planned on using the boat rocker arm assembly. Let me hunt them down. I know that the push rods for the boat rocker arm assembly are good to go, but I haven't even looked at the cup push rods, I'll have to find those.

I just want to be able to look at both options for you, especially in light of the budget constraints we all face!

The boat pushrods have recently become unavailable to us again (both lengths). We have plenty of reconditioned welded (ball and cup) pushrods in both lengths available.

And...this makes you look at all your parts in detail so you can learn how to I.d. Any faults that folks that don't normally mess with will overlook!
 
I can't wait to see what comes out of that boat rocker arm assembly since that is the one I had acid dipped at the machine shop. You would think acid dipping them would clean them out, but I know better now. I have to really think hard about what I did with those cup push rods. I hope I didn't throw them away thinking I wouldn't need them. They've got to be somewhere, surely I wouldn't throw them away... Surely?

Let's cross our fingers
 
Well we can scratch the idea of me having the push rods with the cup on the end, I looked everywhere last night and couldn't find them. They are in a landfill somewhere probably. My other push rods are all straight and very cleean and shiny!

So, let's really try and get the boat rocker arm assembly to be the one I use.

Thanks
 
Too bad about the pushrods!

Here's a pic of your "clean" rocker assembly. If you had mounted this one the results would have been disastrous!

The debris shown in the pic is the stuff that I managed to gather as I peeled the parts off the shaft, the majority of the stuff is on the floor!

As I've said before, hot-tanking these assemblies does nothing other than remove some of the surface varnish. And the inside of the shaft which is really the critical item is far worse looking than this pile of debris.

And on top of the filthy condition, the actual wear points on the rocker shaft made by the boat rocker contact are not usable at all. This would have been one noisy valve train and no doubt the blame would fall on the "cam and lifters" when in reality those parts have nothing to do with this.

The pic does not show the terrible wear points on the shaft, but trust me, this one is not useable as a "boat" rocker shaft .

The "oil feed" rocker stand that you saw that still had partial clogging after being vatted, is actually completely clogged deep inside. This rocker assembly could not have been oiling at all, that leads to rapid wear on the shaft where the rockers ride at the two tiny points.

Internally, the shaft is even worse than what you can see on the surface here. I've not popped the plugs out since it May be wasted anyway.

The other shaft is of course a "welded" rocker assembly, it's equally as filthy and hasn't been pre-cleaned at all. Four of the welded rocker "tips" that contact the valve tips are worn beyond use, and as we've discussed, currently we don't have a source for remanufacturing those items.

So here is what I can do for ya...

I have some nine stand rocker shafts that though too worn to use as welded rocker shafts, can be turned upside down and used as boat assemblies. I will clean the best of those internally, re-plug, and then assemble a nice boat rocker assembly for ya. I absolutely gayrontee this will work and would do it for my own engines if need be.

And in consideration of your budget, I'll simply "trade" with ya for the welded rocker parts of which some are usable down the line. We can always use bits and pieces as the stuff eventually adds up to a full set. I'll cover the return shipping back to ya so you won't incur any additional expense about this deal and you'll end up with a rocker assembly of nice quality.
 

Attachments

  • Boat Rocker Parts.jpg
    Boat Rocker Parts.jpg
    75.4 KB · Views: 372
I've completed the assembly of your rocker shaft.

Just to show you and others contemplating an engine rejuvenation, here's a shot of your original boat rocker shaft that had been "cleaned" in the hot tank by the machine shop.

On the right is one of the core plugs after removal, you can see the heavy accumulation of sludge and hard carbon particulate that is stuck to the end of the plug.

My camera won't do macro, but if you look carefully in the end of the shaft, you can see the beginning of the sludge "plug" that extend all the way through the shaft interior.

So...the hot-tank process cleaned the exterior of the system to a degree, but did nothing except make the interior blockage even worse. The exterior cleanliness really means nothing other than being cosmetically nice.

This rocker shaft would not allow lubrication whatsoever!

Look for your return shipment in the mail by Friday (if not sooner). I'll use the return address that was on your original package unless you advise otherwise, if so, then send me a correct ship-to address to:

michael@IHPartsAmerica.com

Edit:

I forgot to mention a very important point. I have all nine bolts inserted into their respective stands. All bolt threads should be treated with a non-hardening sealant such as permatex #2 or hylomar, that will seal the bolt threads which penetrate the intake ports to prevent both vacuum leaks and oil being pulled into the intake ports which will result in major oil smoke on those cylinders.

And...remember, this shaft was originally a welded rocker unit that is worn too badly to be used with welded rockers. So I have "flipped" it to use with boat rockers, that means the wear points on that shaft are just the same as a new shaft. So...the small notch on each end of the shaft must be installed towards the head surface!!! The way the bolts are now inserted will allow it to mount only in that orientation, so don't change anything, it is plug and play. The shaft assembly will be "pre-lubed" when you do the pre-oil procedure once the cam, lifters, oil pump, pan, and oil is installed. You want to spin the oil pump before installing the head so you can see the oil emerge from the oil port in the block deck.

Then after the head is installed and torqued, along with mounting the rocker assembly, you will spin the oil pump again to pressurize the rocker shaft to observe oil flow from all eight rocker arm locations.
 

Attachments

  • Rocker shaft blockage.jpg
    Rocker shaft blockage.jpg
    79.7 KB · Views: 344
Last edited:
Back
Top