Mystery axle noise

I'll keep the u-joint situation in mind. I just forked out for a beautiful new driveshaft to go with this conversion. Something needed to be done because the stock one was bottoming out. The angles look very benign compared to my k5 blazer with 4" lift. I have a cv joint on that one. Have you tried that?

Michael, I've noticed in a few threads that you don't seem to have all the auto-adjuster stuff on your d44 rear brakes. Is it just in the pics, or do you have it that way all the time? It is a ton of claptrap, so I'd be happy to get rid of it if people have determined it to be worthless. It doesn't seem to be auto adjusting for me yet.
 
The early 44 and 27 did not come equiped with auto adjusters. I have ben looking for the parts so I can add the feature to mine. Tired of adjusting my own damn self.
 
edit: lost I-net this morning for a few hours, so this edit did not post.

Yes ...the "auto adjuster" stuff was being phased into the industry in the mid-60's! Some oems went years before incorporating since the brakes systems were long-term purchase "contract" deals.

And...so many times when we get into this old shit, the po infection has already taken a toll!

The lockheed pattern brakes used in some IH pickalls and Scout 80/Scout 800 front use a really strange type of "self-adjuster", not at all like what is used in the far more common bendix-pattern brake systems.

The rear brakes systems on the s80/s800 (if the larger option brakes from bendix) can have auto-adjust hardware added if the adjuster cable is the correct length. That's just a matter of going thorough the hardware kits at a decent auto supply or friction shop and finding the right stuff. Once we know the source part number, we can post it for posterity! But that stuff has never been a priority for me, I prefer to do my own brake adjusting!

So...to reiterate...on my '63 s80, I have the "option" 10" lockheed brakes on the front (no self-adjusting feature oem) onna d27 axle geared open diff 4.27. The rear axle is an offset d44 "option" axle for that model with a 4.27 powerlok, tapered axle/hub version and bendix pattern 12" brakes. The current transfer case is a d18. I'm currently prepping a t-18 four speed (four cylinder application) to swap in that had a d20 twin stick behind it (pullout from a Scout 800). But I will keep the d18 transfer case, the bull gear for the two cases I have fortunately are the same part number so that makes this simple!

There was no one brake system used on those or any other IH rig, the brake systems had to be spec'd by the dealer on each order. If the notation "prototype" appears on any lineset ticket, that means the vehicle was assembled according to a standardized build configuration, then the component callouts were added to the standard platform in detail. It does not mean anything special or "prototype" for an individual vehicle, that was just an id term used for a basic assembly package. Kinda like the "doll-up" callout folks see, that was an internal control package that only meant something to the production folks.

Again...because of the individual uniqueness of the IH vehicle production system, this made it very difficult to deal with regarding the service parts business both for IH and the aftermarket! And that is why there are big holes and discrepancies in the aftermarket parts business today for this IH stuff!
 
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Yes I have looked at a cv set up. The deal on an offset output and a centered diff, the drive line is running on 2 planes.
On one end of a cv set up, the u-joint is 0 to 1 degree angle and why some axles are tipped up for big differences in elevation from say a body lift. The cv end then can handle the acute angle.

On my stock set up, the difference in elevation from the output of the transfer case and the diff yoke gives me about a 1 1/2 degree of joint angle, but add to that the 7.5" difference in output to diff yoke from centerline and I end up with a compound angle of around 10 to 10 1/2 degrees. That ain't much, but optimum angles for long life are spec'd at no more than 5 to 8 degrees. O degrees ain't good either by the way, you need at least 1 1/2 degrees to keep the rollers in the trunnions turning. Running at 3,600 rpm or closer to 3,800 rpm drive shaft revs when doing 62 mph with 4.27 gears and 31" tires at those angles is not a formula for long life.

That's why I'm going to an offset diff. If it was just a trail rig that's trailered, I wouldn't bother.
 
I've got the 11"x1.75" brakes, which is causing me grief. I needed some of those pins that hold the shoes to the backing plate and a guy at the parts place checked about 50 applications and couldn't find anything with 1.75". Everything is 2" or more, unless it's a pinto and then it's too small. My drums are messed up and the cheapest I've found is about $90 each.

You mentioned that pulling the axles the wrong way can damage the drum. How does that happen and what is the effect? The situation with my drums is that they were binding on the studs and the stud holes were/are was bent out some. They never seated right until the lug nuts were torqued down and then the drums were nearly impossible to get off. I took a die grinder to the stud holes to loosen things up, but it's not a good solution. Both drums seem to be out of round or not centered with the axle. I had them turned, but they still do the thing where they don't brake uniformly during rotation. They stick at one point. I'm assuming this is the drum's fault and not that the axle itself is somehow off.
 
Id repalce the drums. Since you have had the brakes turned and they are still sticking that means the drims are wasted/
 
1hc72 said:
id repalce the drums. Since you have had the brakes turned and they are still sticking that means the drims are wasted/
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Yeah. Getting the brakes right is a priority. I haven't made peace with the $95 each yet though. I found a guy with a used set for $20 each, but then I don't know if they are definitely good. Plus I'll need to turn them too. No good options. :crazy:
 
mastiff said:
I've got the 11"x1.75" brakes, which is causing me grief. I needed some of those pins that hold the shoes to the backing plate and a guy at the parts place checked about 50 applications and couldn't find anything with 1.75". Everything is 2" or more, unless it's a pinto and then it's too small. My drums are messed up and the cheapest I've found is about $90 each.

You mentioned that pulling the axles the wrong way can damage the drum. How does that happen and what is the effect? The situation with my drums is that they were binding on the studs and the stud holes were/are was bent out some. They never seated right until the lug nuts were torqued down and then the drums were nearly impossible to get off. I took a die grinder to the stud holes to loosen things up, but it's not a good solution. Both drums seem to be out of round or not centered with the axle. I had them turned, but they still do the thing where they don't brake uniformly during rotation. They stick at one point. I'm assuming this is the drum's fault and not that the axle itself is somehow off.
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Dealing with the "tapered axle" d44 system is a whole other animal as compared with a similar maintenance procedure onna "flanged" drive axle version of a d44. Pretty much apples and oranges as far as brake systems and overall service procedure. A "flanged" d44 does not have to have the axle bearings packed and adjusted periodically...big difference!

Thanks charles for correcting me about the "12" brake set"! I have a 12" bendix system on the bench now I'm working over for a pickup so I get confused easily when writing! You are correct, your rear brake set is an 11" x 1-3/4" nominal bendix system.

And...there were at least two different drums used with those 11" brakes, one has a reinforcing "rib" on the open end perimeter, the other does not. But the drums will interchange on the hubs even though one is slightly heavier than the other.

I had the same problem as you when I pulled the axle apart in those pictures that looks so ratty! And one drum would not turn, it was way beyond limits when my friction materials supplier checked it, they won't touch stuff like that.

Mike Ismail (Jeff's brother with IH only in Lancaster, CA) was able to send me up one nice drum that happened to match the one good one I had perfectly. Those both went out for turning and the brake system you see in this pic is an "after" shot with used hardware and freshly built shoes with riveted premium lining material.

As for the "hold down nails" for this type brake shoe, if I can't buy new ones of the correct length, I use a 3" #8 box nail and cut to proper length. Then I "forge" the tip to the correct flat pattern and carefully finish grind the shape. Full service brake/suspension/alignment shops have these "nails" (and other brake hardware) in bulk in all lengths. And I don't mean places like "midas"!

Of all places...I found a listing at autozone for the "correct" drums several years back in the "duralast" chinese casting stuff. But when I checked deep within the autozone system, they had no inventory in the us and did not plan to re-establish one. But a friend of mine in kentucky did find two of 'em locally, that is how I happened to check with a-zone, otherwise I'd never walk in one of those stores except for a fake chrome chain license plate frame.

Since then we've worked with the biggy in the brake systems industry today..."centric"...regarding these drums and they have nothing and don't have plans to supply those parts, though they do have alotta weird/obsolete inventory that we can use.

So if you can find the correct drums for around $100, jump on 'em! Some drums for some IH rigs are now going for well over $300 new. The brake set shown in this pic has new wheel cylinders that I obtain locally for under $15 each. No way I'll rebuild wheel cylinders if I can buy 'em that cheep! That makes up for the unobtanium drums!

But have you had to pay the going rate to have nearly any current model vehicle with abs serviced in the brake dept.??? Real lucky to get out of any shop with a full brake job for under $1200. All these dam disc rotors nowadays are throwaways that warp if ya look at 'em cross-eyed.

Go on to the next post regarding the "drum/hub" deal!
 

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As for the tapered hub "removal" issue...

Here's a pic of the inside of the hub/drum combo as pulled.

At the point of assembly for the axles, the drums were "swedged" to the hubs in order to simplify the assembly process...and May have been a process to insure "concentricity" of the hub/drum but I really don't think that was a plan for insuring "quality"!

No doubt, when you pulled your drums, if you did not have to pull the hub with the special puller, then someone had already been in there and removed the assembly, then modded the drum/hub/studs so that the next time service was required, the drums could be removed. And that is exactly what I do anytime I deal with these oem items where the hub and drum are either grown together or have been po-botched!

In most of these cases, the average Joe can't see the parting line between the hub and drum, and assume they are one piece...not so!

If ya use a bigazz three jaw "claw" puller on the circumference of the drum, that will turn it inside out and destroy it's useability...and warp the tapered hub also. That renders the entire assembly scrap! No way to fix that short of replacing all parts.

The otc puller pulls from the wheel studs and hub, has no force applied to the drum. In some cases that puller brings the hub/drum right off. In others the hub must be spot heated and the puller pounded on also, it's made for that kind of treatment! It's not supposed to come off easy! That puller is rated at a pull-capacity of 10 tons.

The nut must be left on the axle thread loosely as a stopper, otherwise when that hub comes off, the whole rig will fly across the shop, could break yore leg if it's in the path!

Once the hub/drum is on the bench, you support each stud point from the rear using a pipe "support for an anvil. Then drive the stud out with a big hammer or use a press (preferred method). Then throw those studs away, do not attempt to re-use!

Then next you support the drum from the inside on either side of the hub using "angle" press plates or something very rigid. Then press the hub out of the center hole where it pilots on the hub.

Once the drum is removed, very lightly clean up the center hole and the stud holes so that it will still pilot over the hub but not have to be forced on. Then the drum can be turned or cleaned.

I then install new studs in the hub by either the press method or driving in with the big hammer while the hub is supported by a fixture of some sort. If ya don't support the hub, it will be bent/distorted, again rendering it unusable.

If ya do all this carefully, then 20k miles later when it's time to do another brake maintenance on the rear, the drums will come right off and leave the hubs in place. But...in order to service the axle bearings, the hubs must be removed.

The tapered hub system was used by nearly all axle manufacturers up into the 1970's. That is why that otc puller was a standard item in a mechanic's arsenal.
 

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Are we really ahead with these axles as opposed to finding a more common Dana 44 and fixing the perches (and maybe width)? As usual I didn't know what I was getting myself into when I got these axles. Some guy nearby here had a 44 and a 30 so I jumped on it. I thought a 44 was more or less a 44.
 
This shot shows the reconditioned tapered hub being installed without the drum. I also install longer wheel studs with a slightly different spec serrated shoulder area so that there is no way the drum is gonna "stick" on the wheel studs, the drum centers on the hub. And...I eliminate that "left hand thread studs in the process...that was someones bright idea (chrysler used 'em also) that was a real pita and made no difference as far as wheel nuts loosening. That is what proper tightening of any nut/bolt does!

But then if you are trying for a perfect restoration, then the left hand studs/nuts are imperative!

With the rig on stands, I use any kind of stopper I have to prevent axle rotation when torquing that nut. It must be slightly over-torqued in order to fully seat the taper. Then take the nut back out a few turns and re-tighten until the castle nut slot aligns with the cotter pin hole. I also use loctite green on the axle shaft taper. And always use a new nut!
 

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mastiff said:
are we really ahead with these axles as opposed to finding a more common Dana 44 and fixing the perches (and maybe width)? As usual I didn't know what I was getting myself into when I got these axles. Some guy nearby here had a 44 and a 30 so I jumped on it. I thought a 44 was more or less a 44.
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That depends...if you could find a proper width and offset pumpkin axle in any model..anything is possible! Some folks want stuff to remain original.

Moving perches around is no issue at all. But cutting down an axle for width is a big deal! And why go to all that trouble if the offset pumpkin is not correct for a d18 output??

No matter if the d44 drive axle is "early", "late", or what it's original bom build was for, there are hundreds of variations! Just look at the spicer application guide we've referenced so often around here for all the Ford, IH, chev, amc/Jeep!

But before springing for an alternative axle to butcher, make dam sure the brake system is decent and it's something ya can get parts for at 7-11! Many of these brake systems have obsolete parts written all over 'em, this is not just something that afflicts IH stuff!
 
Thanks for the great info. This is all new to me, since I've never worked on anything older than the 80's until now. So, the big question for me now is whether my hub is trashed. I was about to pull the trigger on some new drums, but after reading your write-up, I could be spending $200 and still not have things right.

A po went through the procedure you described, but whether he did it in a way that was destructive, I don't know. I know things don't fit together properly and the drum doesn't rotate about the same point the shoes are centered on - if you know what I mean. Something's off center. I wanted to blame it on the drums, what do you think?
 
Whether you're ahead with tapered end axles I would say depends on the duty of the rig. The 19 spline axle is considered weaker when compared to the later 30 spline. But the the later axles have smaller wheel bearings, the old tapered end wheel bearings are huge for the service. Other than service might be more involved, needing a hub puller, I have no problems. But, 'ol yeller ain't climbing rocks or has to deal with massive horsepower and it's a tough axle in stock trim.
The center bore of the brake drum should mate with the machined centering lip in the hub, that is what centers it. As the oem drums were swaged to the hub, replacement studs that follow the same profile of the serrated shoulder need to have the exposed shoulder that goes past the thickness of the hub turned down a bit. What I did was chuck one in a drill press, and with it running, run a file against the part I wanted to reduce; just like on a lathe only now it's vertical. That makes for easier drum removal. The "original" way to remove an oem drum was to use a cutter that cuts just the swaging when placed over the stud. I don't think that tool is available any more, so what our local Scout mechanic uses is a 5/8" metal cutting hole saw very carefully. Even those can be hard to come by so all that's left is brute force. Using a buck (pipe) for back up will protect the drum and hub from warping it when driving out the stud. If the drum is not turning true to the shoes and it's centered on the hub as indicated earlier, you've got either a bent hub, a bent axle, or a bad drum. I would check all things to narrow down the culprit: have the drum's trueness checked in a brake lathe, then check the axle with it all properly assembled except keep the hub off and check it's trueness with a dial indicator. Then the hub is put on and it's checked for run out. Or if it's all together now and on stands, put a tire on and look for wobble, provided you know the rims are ok.
I am surprised by the lack of parts you're mentioning. It seems it was just a few years ago I could get anything, it was the front axle that I had problems getting the hardware for.
 
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Another reason to check all this out!

Regarding out-of-plane/out-of-center brake drum rotation...

Since your drum(s) will remove, check the runout on the hub itself, without the drum installed. If there is runout in any direction, try and determine if it's lateral or vertical...or both. Record the results.

Then pull the tapered hub off the axle shaft and look for any anomalies there...it's entirely possible your noise issues could be related to any and all the stuff we've thrown out! If you don't have access to a puller like shown, then see about rigging something up in a homebrew fashion that will extract the hub. But again...don't claw-pull from the hub flange unless you know that it's already damaged, if that's the case, ya just gotta remove it and then find a replacement!

Once the hub is off, then check the runout on the axle shaft/stub. The axle shaft could be bent (very common), the bearings could be scruud (very common), etc., anything that can cause runout beyond limits.

And of course, the drum itself could certainly be "warped in regards to it's axis if it was pulled incorrectly in the beginning.

So take the time to analyze the sitch before making any decisions, ya got a lotta work ahead to get to that point!
 
Thanks for all the help. I just need to get out there and start applying some of the knowledge you've imparted. I'll report back when I know something.

Should the pullers be obtainable, or are they getting to be specialized items?
 
The pullers are obtainable. I can get one local, or online. They ain't cheap, somewhere between $115 & $150. But they(as shown in the picture), are the only ones up to the task.
 
greg r said:
the pullers are obtainable. I can get one local, or online. They ain't cheap, somewhere between $115 & $150. But they(as shown in the picture), are the only ones up to the task.
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Haven't found the exact thing yet on-line. I found this for $50, but I can't tell if it would fit:

b.front-hub-remover-7208a.jpg


Here's a home made one that I think could work:

hmsidepuller.jpg


I might be up to the task of making that.
 
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