MOTOR OILS - FUEL ECONOMY VS. WEAR

D

DF Sales&Marketing

Oil Tech Moderator
in part from machinery lubrication

Conventional wisdom states that engine oils that increase fuel economy allow less friction and prolong engine life. The purpose of this article is to challenge conventional wisdom, particularly concerning modern engine oils.

fuel economy: ​
Does anyone really care?
First, we should face the fact that the American consumer does not appear to care too much about fuel economy. The no. 1 selling passenger vehicle is the Ford f-series pickup. Five of the top 10 best selling vehicles are trucks, which outsell cars. Some trucks are suvs. The size and weight of these vehicles is not conducive to great fuel economy.
Additionally, consider how most vehicles are driven. Anyone accelerating slowly or driving at the speed limit to conserve energy is a danger to himself and others who are in a much bigger hurry.
Auto manufacturers, on the other hand are concerned about fuel economy. The manufacturer faces big fines if the fleet of cars it produces falls short of the corporate average fuel economy (café) requirements imposed upon them by the federal government.

the March to thinner oils​
Thinner oils are being used these days for three reasons: they save fuel in test engines, the viscosity rules have changed, and manufacturers are recommending thinner grades.
The sequence vi-b is the test used to evaluate fuel economy for the gf-3 spec. The vi-b test engine is fitted with a roller cam where the old sequence vi test used a slider cam. The old sequence vi responded well to friction modifiers, but the sequence vi-b responds to thinner oils.
The test oil’s fuel efficiency is compared to the fuel efficiency of a reference oil in the sequence vi-b test. To pass, the test oil must improve fuel economy one or two percent, depending on viscosity grade. Sae 5w20 must produce higher relative fuel efficiency than sae 5w30.
Another factor in fuel economy is temporary polymer shear. These polymers are additives known as viscosity index improvers (or modifiers). Polymers are plastics dissolved in oil to provide multi-viscosity characteristics. Just as some plastics are tougher, more brittle or more heat-resistant than others, different polymers have different characteristics.
New rules defining the cold-flow requirements of sae viscosity grades (sae j300) became effective in June 2001. The auto manufacturers were afraid that modern injection systems might allow the engine to start at temperatures lower than the oil could flow into the oil pump. Consequently, the new rules had a thinning effect on oil.
The auto manufacturers now recommend thinner oils for their vehicles than in the past. Years ago, sae 10w40 was the most commonly recommended viscosity grade, later migrating to sae 10w30. Sae 5w30 is most popular now, but Ford and honda (and some others) recommend sae 5w20. It is likely that more widespread adoption of sae 5w20 and other thin oils May occur to help comply with café requirements.
Because of the change in cold-flow and fuel economy tests pushing formulators toward the bottom of the viscosity grade, today’s sae 10w30 oils are more like yesterday’s sae 5w30 oils. On top of that, there is a trend toward oems recommending thinner grades. This seems ridiculous. Suvs and trucks, with their inherently less efficient four-wheel drive and brick-wall aerodynamics, need powerful, gas guzzling engines to move their mass around in a hurry. In response, auto oems recommend using thin oils to save fuel. Incredible!

viscosity and wear​
Thinner oils have less drag, and therefore less friction and wear. Right? Perhaps in the test engine or engines that experience normal operation. But somewhat thicker oils May offer more protection for more severe operations such as driving through mountains, pulling a boat, dusty conditions, short trips, high rpm, overloading, overheating and overcooling.
Any abrasive particles equal to or larger than the oil film thickness will cause wear. Filters are necessary to keep contaminants small. The other side of the equation is oil film thickness. Thick oil films can accommodate larger contaminants.
Temperature has a big effect on viscosity and film thickness. As a point of reference, one sae grade increase in viscosity is necessary to overcome the influence of a 20ºf increase in engine temperature. At a given reference point, there is approximately a 20ºf difference between viscosity grades sae 30, 40 and 50. Sae 20 is somewhat closer to 30 than the other jumps, because sae 30 must be 30ºf higher than sae 20 to be roughly the equivalent viscosity.
In other words, an sae 20 at 190ºf is about the same kinematic viscosity as an sae 40 at 240ºf. This approximation works well in the 190ºf to 260ºf temperature range. One might be surprised at the slight amount of difference between straight viscosity vs. Multi-viscosity oils with the same back number (for example sae 30, sae 5w30 and sae 10w30).
If an sae 50 oil at 260ºf is as thin as an sae 20 oil at 190ºf, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an sae 5w20 and your engine overheats. When engines overheat, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture.
Ford is bumping up against its café requirements and recommends sae 5w20 oil for most of its engines in the united states. It claims sae 5w20 is optimal for fuel efficiency and wear.
To determine if sae 5w20 oils provide the same level of protection as sae 5w30 oils, dagenham motors in england, one of the largest Ford dealers in europe, was consulted. Sae 5w30 is required for warranty purposes in england, and sae 5w20 is not even available. If sae 5w20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in europe?


antiwear property changes​
Another change that occurred in passenger car motor oils is a more stringent limit on phosphorous, which is a part of the zinc phosphate (zddp) antiwear additive. The auto manufacturers are concerned that phosphorous will deposit on surfaces of the catalytic converter and shorten its life.
This is a complicated issue, and the deposits depend on the specific zddp chemistry and the finished oil formulation. The industry was unsuccessful in designing an engine test for an oil’s catalytic converter deposit forming tendencies. Therefore, the auto manufacturers set an arbitrary limit for motor oil of 0.1 percent phosphorous.
Antiwear additives are important in the absence of a hydrodynamic film, such as in the valve train. The antiwear additives are activated by frictional heat, which causes them to react with the hot surface and form a chemical barrier to wear.
The mechanism by which phosphorous deposits form on catalytic converter surfaces is not fully understood. It does not correlate directly with oil volatility or oil consumption. On the other hand, if engine wear causes oil consumption to increase, the risk of forming phosphorous deposits in the converter would increase dramatically. It seems that preventing wear and oil consumption should be a priority.
In the past, oil formulators could make a premium product by simply adding more zddp. A similar move today would result in an oil formulation that would not support new car warranties.


short-term thinking​
As wear increases, the efficiency of an engine declines. Valve train wear slightly changes valve timing and movement. Ring and liner wear affect compression. The wear hurts fuel efficiency and power output by an imperceptible amount at first, but then the difference in fuel economy between and sae 10w30 and sae 5w20 is hardly noticeable. Efficiency continues to decline as wear progresses. Perhaps optimizing wear protection is the way to reduce fuel consumption over the life of the engine.
Certainly engines that have experienced significant ring and liner wear benefit from thicker oils. Thicker oil results in compression increases, performance improvements and reduced oil consumption.
High-mileage oils are a relatively new category of passenger car motor oils. These products typically contain more detergent/dispersant and antiwear additives than new car oils. They typically contain a seal swell agent and are available in thicker viscosity grades than most new cars recommend. “high mileage” seems to be defined by “as soon as your car is out of warranty.”

what to use​
Although thinner oils with less antiwear additive outperform more robust products in the 96-hour fuel economy test, it is not clear that such products save fuel over the useful life of the engine.
Every fluid is a compromise. Oils recommended by the auto manufacturers seem to compromise protection from wear under severe conditions to gain fuel economy and catalyst durability. It is important to recognize that to use a product that offers more protection from wear will most likely compromise your warranty. Thicker oils also compromise cold temperature flow, which May be of concern depending upon climate and season.
The best protection against wear is probably a product that is a little thicker (such as sae 10w30 or 15w40) and has more antiwear additives than the oils that support the warranty. The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owner’s manual or stamped on the dipstick.

Dick floryanowich
swepco
 
"anyone accelerating slowly or driving at the speed limit to conserve energy is a danger to himself and others who are in a much bigger hurry."
Now that's just too funny.

My scion manually says to use 5-30wt oil and says do not use 20-50wt or damage May result. Warranty is up so thats not an issue anymore. I've been running castrol but now thinking about some swepo products. What wt would you recommend?
 
Craig,

that quoted line in the article I sent out was from an original, it tickled my funny-bone too, but no-one else beside you commented on it.

Since you state that the scion is out of warranty, I'm going to assume that it is pre-2007, therefore requiring "sl" graded engine oil.

Swepco's 306 5w30 is rated "sj" - however the 10w30 is rated "sl." our second car is a 2004 toyota camry wich also calls for 5w30, but I have used 306 10w30 in it from the first oil change on. The 306, 10w30 is rated "sl." so, my recommendation for this application would actually be the 306, 10w30.....but not only from my own experience, but that of many, many others who use 10w30 instead of 5w30. Fuel economy should not be effected, but you might see a slight increase in fuel economy when switching over from the castrol you are using to the swepco, along with a quieter running engine.

The 306 5w30 and the 306 10w30 both have the same pour point of -35f.

If I am correct and your scion is pre-2007, it would be best for the engine if you did not use the newer "sm" grade as it is much lower in additives.

Jeff should have the 306 - 10w30 in stock.

Thank you for your interest in our products!
Dick
 
My 2003 Ford focus takes 5w-20 oil, which pours about at slow as a glass of milk would. Makes for messy oil changes! Fwiw I've always put mobil 1 in my engine when doing a change myself. Just out of curiosity, is there a swepco equivalent for this grade of oil, and is it procurable in the san diego area? (I noticed swepco products being sold at the local orw, but they just carry gear and trannsmission lubes.)

I did notice over the summer, when gas was hitting $4.50+/gal in these parts that accelerating more slowly and keeping my freeway speed down under 70 mph, my fuel economy averaged 31-32 mpg, vs. The 24-26 mpg of my "normal" driving pattern. Seems to me that just a couple of quick, hard accelerations will lop 20-30 miles of the range of a tank full.

I was never as much a danger to anyone as the occasional idiot "in a much bigger hurry". Don't blame me if someone's driving 80+ and not looking ahead.

I don't know about exact rate or degree of wear, but there's one thing I have learned from 30+ years of driving and multiple vehicle ownerships. Don't assume that if your engine lasts forever, your car or truck Will last forever. I think with regular engine maintenance (timely oil and filter changes with any kind of oil) your engine will far outlast the rest of the vehicle. I.e., you'll have gotten tired of x many brake jobs, battery replacements, clutch/transmission problems, electrical glitches, deteriorating interior, etc. And be ready to move on to something newer before the engine itself ever starts giving you something to think about.

Having said that though, I am someone who believes in using the best oil possible; or at least a "really good" oil. Same with filters.

For a few years I was running pure mobil 1 10w-30 in my 345. With that oil, the engine started easily and ran fine. But then I heard about the zinc/phosphorous thing and realized I better change. I swapped to a mix of mobil 1 15w-50 and their delvac 1300 15w-40. Didn't start as easily, but I figured I was getting better protection on my 300k-mile IH engine. At my next oil change, one year later, on impulse I decided to try mixing the m1 5w-40 diesel engine oil with the delvac. Boy it sure starts quicker than with the thick m1.

Then I started reading here about the "cj-4" thing, and checked the delvac bottle in the garage. Yikes. Those f-ers must have taken the good stuff out of their diesel products like almost everyone else. Now I'm looking for a replacement. I'd like to find swepco locally.

For what it's worth, mobil does still make a couple of synthetics with high levels of "phosphorus" and are rated for flat-tappet engines. They are the two I've been using: 15w-50 (1200 ppm) and their 5w-40 diesel-appl. Oil (1300 ppm).
 
Hello patrick,

I had just finished a reply, and checked the "preview post" and lost the whole thing, even tho I was logged in....what a bummer! I'll try to regain my composure now and start over, but if two posts come up with two seperate replies, I wouldn't be surprised!

I'll address your questions and comments in two sections, one for your Ford focus, the other for your IH 345.

1) Ford focus:

according to the check-chart I have, Ford had two recommendations for the 2003 focus. One was for using 5w30 in the svt, 2.0l engine, the other was for using 5w20 for "all others." I'm assuming that you have one of the "all other" engines, therefore requiring 5w20.

Up until recently, swepco did not produce a 5w20 engine oil, but do they do now with the "303" product, however it is rated sm, which has a lower additive level in it and meets the current api standards for "low emission" engines. It is backwards compatible, but I still recommend the "306" oil in either the 5w30 or the 10w30 weights for pre-2007 engines. The 5w30 meets sj, while the 10w30 meets sl, both of them have the higher phosphorous/zinc/calcium level than the 303 sm oil does. I'm not sure if your owner's manual calls for sj or sl, but the 306 10w30 has more volatility protection than the 306 5w30 does.

Ford has "caved" somewhat on the 5w20 recommendation in europe where it is not available, and have stated that 5w30 or 10w30 can be used in those areas. I have many customers who use either of those, most of which are using the 10w30 and are very happy with it.....but, it is not what the factory recommends in the u.s. So if warranty is an issue, which it shouldn't be given the age of the vehicle, you would have to use 5w20 in the sl grade if you can still find it, or in the sm grade, which has the lower additive level than what yours calls for.......confused yet?

IH 345:

there is no reputable mechanic or oil company which would recommend mixing weights of engine oil together....even by the same manufacturer. Multi-weight engine oils contain chemicals to achieve the different weight ranges from cold start-up to operating temperatures, and mixing different oils can result in a situation where one of them can be ineffective. Generally speaking, mineral based oils would be more prone to that problem, however the pao based oils, (semi-synthetics) or the full synthetics probably would not be as noticeable. It's just not a good idea.

Your 345 probably called for a straight 30 wt oil when it was built, however, as you know that is very hard to get, and also does not offer the cold start-up protection that a multi-grade oil does. You are much better off using a multi-graded oil in that application. If you have 300k original miles on your engine and have used mobil 1 for the majority of the time, switching over to another oil, especially a high performance oil like the swepco 306 might increase your oil consumption, as it is higher in detergency and will go to work cleaning out any deposits which May have accumulated over the years..... This would include ring deposits. It is made specifically for more anti-wear protection as well as engine cleanliness. In most cases when someone has experienced an increase in oil consumption after switching over, it will probably last around 2 to 3 oil changes, then gradually diminish back to where it was, or even a little lower, as it would take that long for the rings to re-seat after being cleaned out. So, providing that the cylinder walls still have adequate hone cross-hatching and the rings are still moveable (and not broken), there is a possibility of it "coming back."

given your location, if you decide to go with the 306 engine oil, you would probably either want to use the 15w40 or the 20w50, I'd probably recommend the 20w50 as my first choice, especially with the high-mileage engine you have.

As far as getting it locally, if you have seen other swepco products in the off-road supply stores, you might ask them about special ordering it from their salesman. Otherwise, I would suggest Jeff at ihon, where you would be able to purchase it by the quart instead of full cases of 24 quarts in a case. He stocks the 306 in 10w30, 15w40 and 20w50.

Most all of the majors have changed their formulations to sm for gasoline engines, and cj-4 for diesel engines. Those specs all call for lower additive levels, especially with regard to phosphourus, zinc, and calcium. The 306 engine oil, which is an sl/ci-4 rated oil has higher levels than even the major's old sl/ci-4 oils did, for example the zinc level is >1400ppm.

Thank you for your interest in our engine oil, and for your interesting post. Let me know if you should have any further questions.

Dick
 
That's a bummer loosing all that work. Especially when you are someone who cares enough to preview and examine it before posting. I'm a technical writer and I've had documents go corrupt occasionally and lost a day of work. I'm compulsive about saving my work (ctrl-s constantly) but it's hard to do here. Sometimes while writing a post or a rely to a post, if I remember, I at least do a periodic ctrl-a, ctrl-c, to copy it to the clipboard. That way, at lest most of the work is saved. Or better yet, write the reply in a text editor and copy that to this little "reply" window. But sometimes that's a bother.

Anyway... My focus is not the svt (2.0l turbo); I wish it was in some ways, but it's not. It's the 2.3l pzev version. It's got 65k on it now and I change oil and filter every 5k miles per the factory recommendation. I'll have to look into what mobil 1 is doing nowadays with their 5w-20 m1 oils. I remember reading somewhere that the 'flat-tappet' requirement is anything over 1000 ppm. I have no way of knowing if that's true.

I recall seeing that their 10w-30 mobil1 is only 800 ppm of phos., and I ran that for several years in my Scout, not knowing any better. But I honestly think I didn't put more than 3000-4000 miles on the engine during those years.

I have a very jaded reason for saying the type of oil doesn't matter too much as long as it's changed regularly (though maybe that's changed in the last couple of years). I bought a little dodge shelby glh-s model sedan back in 1986. It's never had anything run tough it except mobil 1 oil, and it's had regular oil changes---and I even installed an external pre/post-oiler pump on it, which worked for about the first 30-40k miles. Now, with 115k miles on its odometer the engine is probably only in its teenage years. Does this car still run? Noooooo. It's a basket case sitting in my garage, waiting for a restoration that May never come. Everything but the engine needs either replacement or major work of some kind---including the upholstery and paint. Oh how I wish it just had a warn out engine. That would be so easy To deal with in comparison to everything else. For the past two and a half years it won't even start due to some weird and elusive electrical problem. Cranks fine, but won't fire up. I did a bunch of trouble shooting, trying to track down

maybe an 80s era dodge is a worst-case scenario... And a Scout is at the opposite end of the spectrum. Aside from rust and all-out abuse scouts have all held up pretty well.
 
Patrick,

thanks for the condolences for my loss......

I remember seeing a chart which listed the zinc content of all the newer mobil 1 oils, and down-loaded it somewhere, but for the life of me, cannot find it....one of the pitfalls of getting older I suppose. However, it does seem to stick in my mind that none of the automotive sm oils they listed had more than 1% (1,000 ppm) of zinc in them. The biggest complaint I've had about the mobil 1 engine oil in the past has been that it eventually leaks somewhere, I'm not sure if they remedied that yet, but I know that when the local mercedes dealer would put mobil 1 in everything they serviced, then when the owner went to an independent shop with leaks, the shop would change over to swepco 306, and it eventually stopped!

Unfortunately, no-one was warned in advance of the changes when the sm grade was passed, so very few people knew of the consequences it would produce, except those in the industry. I have done my best to educate people in this forum as well as in everyday life in my business.

The older engines which called for straight 30 weight oil, such as most of the IH's, even at that time had a pretty good additive package as far as anti-wear is concerned, and in the following decades oil quality kept improving in the areas of wear control, resistance to heat (which produces oxidation) and other areas where it was fine-tuned. The biggest improvement came with the introduction of multi-grade oils which worked! My opinion is that all of that went into the "dumper" when the epa decided to protect catalytic converters instead of engines.

I've learned an awful lot abut the IH equipment since hooking up with Jeff at ihon (tho, not an expert by any means), one of the things being that the engines have a lot of nickel in them, which makes them very hard.....that is certainly a unique idea; to make something that lasts! However, even with that, an inferior quality oil which varnishes and sludges up would still effect equipment wear and longevity, so oil quality does make an awful lot of difference.

Engine builders and owners from air-cooled porsche to high performance, including your family car have found that the swepco line of engine oils have proven to be a superior product, so, as a result, the advent of the sm grade has really given us a boost in sales. A lot of people connect a higher quality oil with a "diesel" oil, and I have trucking companies who regularly get 50 - 75,000 miles on an oil drain....I've actually had quite a few who hit 200,000 miles (using oil analysis to do this) before the mechanic got nervous and changed it! Of course, you cannot do that with a little 'ol gas engine which holds 5 or 6 quarts of oil because it would not have the oil reserve those 11 gallon engines do, but it is still very remarkable.

Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
 
Hi again dick. While I'm thinking about it....

swepco said:
There is no reputable mechanic or oil company which would recommend mixing weights of engine oil together....even by the same manufacturer.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. I've wondered about this.

I bought my Scout in '91. For the first 6 or 7 years just put in castrol 20w50, thinking thicker is better for this ol' truck engine. Then I read something in a book saying you don't need to use oil any thicker than it has to be to get the job done--float the parts, pull away heat, etc.; everything above that's just drag on the parts. So I tried 10w30 and I couldn't believe much more easily the engine cranked, started, and revved.

A few years after that I started mixing oil: putting in 2-qts of mobil 1 10w30 with every oil change. I read in the same source that even a minority mix of a good synthetic will substantially improve the oil's high-temp lubricity (if that's the right word). In short, it'll still protect the engine extremely well at ultra high temps.

Then for a couple of years I just said, what the heck, and ran full m1 10w30.

What I've done the last two changes, I.e., during the last year or so, is pour in a 4-qt jug of the delvac 1300 15w40, then bring it up to level with m1 oil; the first time with their 15w50, and since I couldn't find it except in their too expensive "extended use" version, used the m1 diesel oil, which seems like a more proper mix anyway. (hey, they can't help it if it's got a wider visc rating 'cause it's synthetic ;-). I hope those little mismatching molecules don't get all tangled up before the next change.

I just started digging into mobil 1 info. Looks like their 5w40 is supposedly rated as a cj-4 oil! I downloaded a pdf from their site that lists its "phosphorous" at 1100 ppm (it might have been more in earlier versions). And I just looked at the online data sheet for it, which lists phosphorous at "0.12", which isn't very helpful. I'll take a guess and say it's percent? This would make for a ppm of 1200 if I did the math correctly. It conflicts with what the pdf says, but it's still high in this additive.

Here's what mobil says about zinc. You are in the business. Does this seem like bs? By the way, there's a link in there to that pdf I keep talking about...

has zinc been removed from motor oil?

As for buying your swepco oil from Jeff, the problem is... He isn't exactly down the street. A quart of oil sent via ups would be a very expensive quart indeed. I'd have to buy a lot of it to make it worth while.
 
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By the way, do you remember when mobil 1 was first introduced, they billed it as "the 25,000 mile motor oil!" said so right on the bottles. What ever happened with that claim??? Also, they sorta implied it was made from seaweed, or some similar non-petroleum source.

Edit: I just remembered, the book I mentioned above was called performance with economy, by a guy named david visard. I guess he's written a lot of books on engine rebuilding. His p.w.e. Book seems to be out of print though. He supposedly did his own experiments with synthetic and conventional oils, making some empirical determinations about what works best. He said even a minority mix of synthetic oils with regular will yield most of the high-temperature benefits of a pure synthetic. I never saw anything else to specifically back that up, but it sounded good to me!

I never bought into the idea of buying castol or valvoline's "semisynthetic" oils though. They don't tell you what the mix is! How do I know I wouldn't be paying 50% more money for a 2% synthetic mix?
 
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Patrick,

I sent you a p/m regarding some things I wanted you to know.

Regarding zinc, or what is otherwise known as zddp, the full name is zincdithiophosphate (no wonder they call it zddp for short!)----the phosphorous, zddp and calcium are usually a combination of items which make up this package, we break out phosphorous and zinc seperately. Usually the higher the concentration of zinc in the oil, the higher the calcium (detergent) needs to be to make it a balanced formulation. In oils such as the pao (short for polyalphaolefin) classification of synthetic (which is actually a synthesized hydrocarbon), I've been told that they do not readily hold zinc in suspension and that is why they don't use very much of it to start with, otherwise it "drops out."

you might recall when hurrican ike recently devastated the houston texas area; well mobil has a huge facility there which produces base pao products and uses them in mobil 1 formulations as well as sells them to other producers of oils which use it as an additive or for what is known as a "synthetic blend" oil. As a result of the hurricane, mobil put their pao stocks on allocation, and there was a shortage of mobil 1 oil available to jobbers and dealers. About two months ago, or so, they were able to raise production up to about 75% of normal, I haven't heard anything more lately on the status of that plant.

Most engine oil manufacturers who use pao technology are not compelled by any law to tell exactly how much of the synthesized hydrocarbon (pao) is in their finished product, so you might have from 1% up to anything more than that, but remember the more you use, the less amount of additives they put in because it doesn't stay in suspension. At a certain point they are relying on the film strength of the oil. So, you are correct in the assertion you made about not knowing what you are paying for.

The main advantage of a pao enhanced blended oil is that it will reduce the pour point of the oil, so it is a preferred oil in extremely cold climates. As far as the top end is concerned, any synthesized oil, or for that matter full synthetic oil will have it's limits and when it reaches that limit, it fails dramatically, like going off the chart. A good premium quality, mineral engine oil (such as swepco) will have similar characteristics of having a low pour point as well as a high flash point (flash point is usually the method by which the top end is measured) can be very similar to the aforementioned types of formulations.

Generally, using the right viscosity without being either too light, nor too heavy would be ideal as you mentioned, but I cannot see why, in your location a 20w50 would cause hard cranking, even in the winter because of the moderate temperatures you experience there. As I mentioned before, my recommendation would be either the 15w40 or the 20w50, but please do not mix oils!!! You and I are neither one of us tribologists, but it has been drummed into me for over 20 years that you just don't do that!

Btw, I re-booted and was able to save the information without any problem.....thanks again for sending it.

Regarding purchasing the oil from ihon, in checking with several website sources, he is in line with his pricing for the 306 engine oil....

Hope this all helps!
 
Thanks again dick. Got your message. Buying from Jeff certainly isn't out of the question. I've done so plenty of times before when in need of parts, and his service is as good as it gets. I'll have to ponder the idea of buying a good oil via 'mail order' vs. Finding something else good locally. On my next change, which May be soon even though I just did it at the beginning of this month, are:

  • buy swepco from Jeff at his market price, plus tax and freight.
  • buy something else locally, like redline's 10w40, 15w40, etc. For $10/qt. (x 7, ouch.) however, rl says nothing about where they stand on the whole sm/cj-4 compliance.
  • use pure m1 5w40 diesel oil, with its 1100 or 1200 ppm of zddp and hope it's sufficient. :icon_neutral: (still better than their 10w30 or 10w40 with its 800 ppm.)

I guess it's odd that my engine behaves noticeably different with the different weight oils, especially in these parts. Swapping from 10w30 m1 to the 15w40-15w50 mix. But the difference was quite noticeable. I thought maybe the battery had gotten drained a little somehow. But it was a newish optima, and still did the same thing after a top-off charge.

So at the beginning of this month, for the annual oil change I decided to mix the mobil diesel oil with its synthetic "sister". Obviously, throughout this I was picking m1s that are close in viscosity ranges to diesel oils. Again, the difference in cranking speed was immediately apparent. Much faster than last time. I figure overall, this must be a thinner mix.

Btw, I've only been doing this diesel oil thing for the last year and I'm not married to it. I guess I am pretty attached to the "synthetic" security blanket though. I figure, if I'm ever stuck out in the desert and it gets really hot, I'll worry less about the engine temp needle rising if I've got some synthetic in there. I don't know if it's a false sense of security, but in that situation I'll be able to focus on other things. From what you're saying, swepco would work just as well under these conditions?
 
I had a 1997 expedition that I purchased new and preceded to put a total of 240k miles on in a period of 3 years driving between sacramento, southern California and the sf bay area. Over its time it survived two teenagers; I would mysteriously find dried mud on the underside of the vehicle that would appear as though somebody tried to power wash off, my tendency for a heavy foot off the line and constantly hitting the 90mph Mark up and down I-5. It also pulled my 22’ bass boat every weekend.

I never had any problems with the engine; actually I didn’t change the plug until a 200k! I used mobil 1 full synthetic 5w30 from the first oil change. I changed the oil, filter and washed the aftermarket k&n every 5k miles religiously; and I always changed it myself to be sure it was done right. I was in the heavy highway/freeway construction business at the time which is why I washed the air filter every oil change due to the above normal dust conditions I was exposing the rig too.

Though this has sold me mobil 1 in my vehicles since then, I realize that certain vehicles require special oils, additives, requirements etc. One thing that it has made clear for me is consistency. If you find something that work, my engineering tunnel vision mind says, don’t fix something that isn’t broken. Some oils might be better than others for certain engines based on what they were designed for, dick certainly knows far more than I about this subject. But any practical mind has to think that if you find something that works, it’s important to stick with it and not have a curiosity about it and change brands/formulations of oils every/every other oil change. I have to think this could actually be more damaging to engines. Think of it this way, if you’re a beer drinker and say you always drink bud light, and some jack a** gives you miller, and you hate miller even though technically speaking its beer, think how damaging that can be to yourself. Okay that wasn’t a very good analogy, but you get the point.
 
Point taken ari. I was making a generalization based on the way I drive, putting a total of 10-15k miles collectively on my vehicles, and assuming that's typical. But I guess there's a lot of people out there putting 30k miles or more per year on their vehicles. And doing a fair amount of towing, etc. Then I guess it could be the engine that goes bye-bye first.

As a rebuttal to your argument though, there sometimes comes a point when what used to work fine for years no longer works. And then you have to go looking for a suitable replacement. In the situation with oil, it's looking for something other than your old favorite, something that is still formulated with zddp, etc. Or in the case of your beer analogy, what if budweiser decides some year that, in the interest of public safety, they'll be removing the all the alcohol from their beers. Disaster. Time to go try out other brands. Or in a worse case scenario, switch to wine (which in the automotive world would be buying a prius).
 
Ari & patrick......

You guys are great!......this is so much fun!!!!!

Ari,

sounds like you had a Ford which wasn't made on a Monday or a Friday.

Seriously tho, undoubtedly the reasons behind the longevity of that engine was "thanks to you." you took care of it with regular servicing, including the air cleaner (a much overlooked maintenance item). Actually with putting on 240k miles in three years, you have put on the best kind of miles you can imagine, so I figure that had an awful lot to do with the success you experienced.

Please note that I have never thrown rocks at mobil 1, it is not a bad product, and I also hold the feeling that if you are satisfied with something you have used for years, then you probably should stick with it, providing it continues to serve you well.

The question and statements which patrick brought up, however led onto other areas, like the lowering of zddp in the newer oils, and also "mixing" oils. I think you will agree that my answers to patricks concerns were from what I have learned and feel what his particular circumstances stated had to be addressed.

Being a (former) die-hard bud light drinker (I quit drinking any alcoholic beverages over 15 years ago), I can relate to your analogy about (ugh) miller! So now when I want to enjoy a brew, I have an o'doules, which is like an unleaded version of bud light! I like the taste of beer, but I don't like the effects that alcohol had on me.

I'm curious to know if the transmission lasted as long as the engine did.....

Patrick,

I don't drink wine and I don't like prius' cars either!

Your previous post question about heat: providing your cooling system is functioning properly, there is no reason to be concerned about a little extra heat breaking down our oil. There have been many times when racing, a car comes into the pits reading between 225 - 250 f.....we don't like to see that, of course, but I don't know of any case where it has created a problem with breaking down (oxidizing) from heat. When that happens, it is quite noticeable visibly and aromatically with any oil.

__________________________________________________

I guess the point being that there are many good products out there and most of them can do a pretty fair job of protecting equipment, however there are also a lot of poor products out there as well (which I don't mention by brand name as that is not a way to promote selling a product).

Castrol, (brand name) however, deserves a gold star and kudos for their exceptional advertising blitz when they introduced what they called "synthetic oil." they gave the viewer and/or reader the impression that synthetic oil was better than sliced bread. It was after that happened that all of the other majors jumped on the band wagon implying their own brand was the best thing since sliced bread too. Mobil 1 had been on the market for several years before then, but it was not as well advertised, however after the "blitz," they did promote the product line more and generally fell into the same scenario with the rest of them, advertising wise. Castrol and mobil continue to battle each other and have even gone to court over "what oils are considered synthetic," with castrol winning the court case on that one and since then have been producing a so-called "synthetic" oil which is a petroleum product that is refined a little differently and has some "synthetic-like properties" according to the ftc, it is perfectly legal. By the way, with this "new" manufacturing process, it is rumored to be said that castrol effectively cut their production cost by as much as $1.00 per gallon.....did you see that price reduction on the shelf?

Quite a few of the engine builders I've heard of and deal with will recommend using a petroleum based oil over a synthetic oil, even the high-performance ones who have seen the difference after a tear-down.

I am very heavily involved in sprint car racing and have many teams using our engine oil, gear oil, grease and power steering/hydraulic oil in their race cars, and pretty much the same in their haul rigs. I've had race haulers go up to 5 seasons without having to drain the engine oil, and sprints usually change oil every 4 races, instead of one or two with the "other" oils. They use the 306 - 20w50 engine oil, the same oil we have been talking about for street off-road use in IH's, of course the big rigs use the 15w40 version. I recently had an engine builder tell me that he recommends our oil to many people, but he "doesn't like it." that was not the first time I heard that comment, and the reason for the statement was "because it's too hard to clean off the parts when it comes in to be worked on, or freshened!" the oil is evident on the parts, even after sitting for long periods of time (had one case where after 8 years, there was still a coating of oil on the rockers when they removed the rocker arm covers) - - oh, the reason for changing oil in only 4 races is more because of the amount of dirt getting into the engine than anything else.

Excuse me, but once I get started it's hard to stop!
Thanks for the posts, hope I got my message across.

Dick
 
I pity the fool that thinks motor oil is just that slick black stuff you put in your engine.

While your on the subject of Ford bashing, you have to remember that fords do have their place in the world and without them it would be a lonely cold empty space, after all, if it wasn’t for fords, our tools would rust. That expedition was the first and only Ford that I’ve owned. I bought it out of college, first job, first new rig. I drove an s-10 throughout my early driving days though out college, never any problems besides an unlucky cat that found shelter under the hood one cold night. Rua rua rua, mooowww, what was that? My father drove a ’93 suburban which ended up with 280k miles when he sold it in ‘98. My father and I always thought with our dipstick’s back then, castrol syntech is what we were using, then again, and a big key here, same maintenance routine.

Interesting little fact about our non Ford family; after my grandfather came back from wwii as an air force mechanic working on fighters and bombers, he worked out the remainder of his days as a mechanic at the Chevy dealership in oakridge, or; it closed back in the late 80’s. He worked there for 30 years to the day. He had a neighbor that worked at a Ford dealership down in eugene. My father tells me that the two were neighbors for 30 years and over that time they May have spoken a half dozen words to each other. My grandmother was very good friends with the Ford mechanics wife as they went to the same church. My grandmother told me once, when my grandfather was on his death bed, the neighbor mechanic came over to wish him farewell, supposable he wouldn’t even look at the guy. Good story, hopefully my grandfather wasn’t that big of an a$$ though; but I hear they were stubborn in those days.

As to the transmission, it actually held up just fine; changed the fluid every spring regardless of the miles, same as the axles. The only bitch I have, is the damn thing could never stay in alignment, ate front tires like hell, and went through brake pads like oil changes. But, all in all, it was a decent ride. After the expedition I went to a ¾ ton Yukon with the 8.1l, put a lot of miles on it, father drives in around nw montana now with just over 200k, of course, no problems.

Consistency... Consistent good maintenance.

Okay, I’ve told you my life story, time for a beer.
 
Hello again ari,

thanks for the return post.

Actually, when I commented about cars being made on a Monday or a Friday, that applied to pretty much all of the cars made in the u.s. (even though it was pointed at your Ford). I'm sure you realize that is an old, old, old saying, so what can you expect from an "older" person?

I hope I was able to give you a little more information about how mobil 1 and castrol are made with the historical background I supplied. It does seem that of all the oil companies on the market, they have the biggest quarrels going, kinda like the hatfields and the mccoys. Keep in mind, I'm not discounting the fact that maintenance is probably one of the most important things for longevity because quality plays as big, if not bigger contributor. In your case, you have used a product which is probably better than most other of the same type being offered, so that does mean a lot.

I think you were lucky to go that many miles without the tranny taking a dump tho, they are notorious for it, especially when teamed up with the powerstroke diesel engines. I've heard of them going out with less than 40,000 miles on them, and when they go, it usually isn't something simple, it's a complete rebuild.

My first three cars from high school on were fords, starting with a '49 flathead v-8.....each successive Ford was worse than the previous, so I changed over to GM and much later added toyota camrys to the mix and have never had another major problem. Many of my customers are auto repair shops which would have to close up if they didn't have fords to work on!

Before becoming associated with swepco, I was under the misled idea that "oil is oil, grease is grease," in fact I was very skeptical, especially after going through the training class at their headquarters in fort worth - I figured no product could be that good - but that was quicky changed after I saw the difference in performance, and what it did for my new customers. It is somewhat difficult to convince some "hardliners" that there is a difference, especially since swepco has never advertised in their 75 years of business and sell in over 80 countries around the world. But there is something out there for everyone, and even tho I promote it as well as I can, and Jeff offers it to his customers because he believes in it, it is still america, and people have the right to have their own opinions and preferences....that's also what's great about the forum, it gives people the opportunity to share their opinion with others. My place is to share my experiences and recommendations. With the volume I do, selling an extra case of oil here and there does not make a helluva lot of difference to my wallet, but it is the satisfaction of being able to educate and help people when I can.....and I enjoy doing it!

Your comment about "thinking with your dipstick" is a good one, I especially like to remind people that if they see that brownish looking stain (varnish) on the portion of the dipstick which goes into the crankcase, that it is probably just as bad, if not worse in the rest of the engine. You probably didn't see that with the mobil 1 as it has a pretty good solvency, and you won't see it with engines which have used swepco engine oil either because of the high detergency. Please keep an open mind about not using the "sm" grade in any pre-2007 gasoline engine you have, and pass the word on to your friends.

Thanks again for your input.
 
swepco said:
hello again ari,

thanks for the return post.

Actually, when I commented about cars being made on a Monday or a Friday, that applied to pretty much all of the cars made in the u.s. (even though it was pointed at your Ford). I'm sure you realize that is an old, old, old saying, so what can you expect from an "older" person?

I hope I was able to give you a little more information about how mobil 1 and castrol are made with the historical background I supplied. It does seem that of all the oil companies on the market, they have the biggest quarrels going, kinda like the hatfields and the mccoys.

My first three cars from high school on were fords, starting with a '49 flathead v-8.....each successive Ford was worse than the previous, so I changed over to GM and much later added toyota camrys to the mix and have never had another major problem. Many of my customers are auto repair shops which would have to close up if they didn't have fords to work on!

Before becoming associated with swepco, I was under the misled idea that "oil is oil, grease is grease," in fact I was very skeptical, especially after going through the training class at their headquarters in fort worth - I figured no product could be that good - but that was quicky changed after I saw the difference in performance, and what it did for my new customers. It is somewhat difficult to convince some "hardliners" that there is a difference, especially since swepco has never advertised in their 75 years of business and sell in over 80 countries around the world. But there is something out there for everyone, and even tho I promote it as well as I can, and Jeff offers it to his customers because he believes in it, it is still america, and people have the right to have their own opinions and preferences....that's also what's great about the forum, it gives people the opportunity to share their opinion with others. My place is to share my experiences and recommendations. With the volume I do, selling an extra case of oil here and there does not make a helluva lot of difference to my wallet, but it is the satisfaction of being able to educate and help people when I can.....and I enjoy doing it!

Your comment about "thinking with your dipstick" is a good one, I especially like to remind people that if they see that brownish looking stain (varnish) on the portion of the dipstick which goes into the crankcase, that it is probably just as bad, if not worse in the rest of the engine. You probably didn't see that with the mobil 1 as it has a pretty good solvency, and you won't see it with engines which have used swepco engine oil either because of the high detergency. Please keep an open mind about not using the "sm" grade in any pre-2007 gasoline engine you have, and pass the word on to your friends.
Click to expand...

Hi again dick. Maybe I missed it, but what makes 2007 and later engines different from earlier ones? (I.e., what makes sm oils okay for newer cars?)

you mentioning varnish and mobil 1 reminded me, when I pulled the valve cover off my shelby (dodge 2.2l) at 110k miles to reseal it, the inside of the aluminum cover had nothing more than what I'd call a yellow stain, or tint, from the oil. Mobil one works as you say regarding the solvency I guess.

I might shoot Jeff a message asking what the cheapest way it to get 8-10 qts of swepco sent down to san diego. I think I'd just use 10w40. My only reasoning for ever going to the diesel-engine oil was for its supposed higher zddp, detergent, etc. If I can get that in a conventional oil that would be fine with me.

Fwiw, I've never used castol's "synthetic"---m1 is the only 'off the shelf' synthetic I ever considered. I'd heard at one point that castrol and maybe some others won a court battle that redefined, broadened, what could be called a synthetic.
 
Hi patrick,

actually, there is not a whole lot of difference (if any) between the pre-2007 and the 2007-newer gasoline Engines. In fact, I've checked with a local Chevy dealership and the service manager says it is ok to use the sl grade oil in the newer ones for the simple reason of more protection - they of course, cannot do that with the cars they service. The point is, that they are mandated to use an sm grade to protect the catalytic converter as they want them to last 120,000 miles. If you have seen previous posts, you will remember that most cats will go longer than that unless there is another problem which causes them to go out. For engines which use some oil, the higher levels of zddp can (or so they say) poison the cat. I do have fleet customers who continue to use the 306 (sl) in the newer vehicles and have yet to lose a cat.

Diesel engines are another whole story as the newer engines requiring the cj-4 are classified as "low emission" engines and have dpf "traps" in the exhaust system. Those are used to burn off the carbon and soot deposits and sometimes reach temperatures as high as 1,600f. Once again, too much zddp in the oil, when burned will cause the system to clog up.

Although this whole scenario has been good to me in being able to sell a highly additized oil for the pre-2007 models, I still resent the fact that "uncle" has forced us to use inferior blends which are not as protective to the engine and paying a higher price for the new systems at the same time.
 
I was just reading on another forum about oils for my focus. With them it's largely been a "5w20 vs. 5w30" dilemma. Some folks play it safe and stick with the factory approved grade, while others are more adventurous and use the thicker version, believing that using -20 was a case of the mfrs trading a little additional wear for slightly higher cafe figures. It is said that the proof lies in the "fact" (I haven't verified this) that the very same engines we have in our cars here are spec'd at 5w30 over in britain. So, -20 wouldn't be a tight-tolerances need.
 
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Hi again patrick,

the posts on that other blog just goes to show what we have been talking about ...... Some people have their preferences, and they can be 180 degrees away from what others have had "good luck" with or what they recommend.

Note that the author is the same one I credited on the original, which was taken from machinery lubrication magazine, but it was so long that I had to edit it to fit into the right format for my monthly newsletter.

When I recommended swepco 306, 5w30 or 10w30, it was because they are "sj" & "sl" grade oils and the fact that we never made a 5w20 in the sl rating. The newer api rating is "sm," and we do make an "sm" 5w20, but it has a lower additive package, which is what started this conversation! Also, I believe I mentioned that 5w20 was not available in britain, and Ford approved the 5w30 for use in place of it.

My personal opinion out of all of this is that it is a cafe thing that Ford is working and not for any other reason.... But, just like all of the other posts you saw, forums are full of opinions, aren't they?

Thanks again for your input.
 
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