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Hillbilly38

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Today I decided to time my 78 345, well I unhooked the vac advance and started up my rig and my timing Mark on my crank pulley is nowhere near the Mark on the block, retarding the timing got it closer but not anywhere close enough and retarding even more caused it to no longer start or run so I readvanced it to get it to run and im right back to square one. Is it possible the Mark on the crank pulley is off somehow? Are these like a GM with a rubber mount that can sometimes slip?

Never mind im stupid. Used to timing GM products on #1 not #8
 
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No they are not like a GM fortunatly they are solid steel and the Mark is stamped directly into them.

Don't feel stupid, I'd bet IH could not explain why they used #8 . I would say that was a stupid cylinder to use. :gringrin: just causes problems doesn't solve any thats for sure. :smilewinkgrin:
 
Thank god for this site and me being able to read or I would have thought id jumped time or had major issues. All timed up now and tomorrow I pick up my rebuilt carb so I can get rid of this junk Holley 4 bbl and adaptor plate that was put on before my time.
 
Actually..there were two separate types of "crank hubs" used on IH sv and I-4 apps.

A true balancer/hub, each part of a "balanced assembly" done in mechanized engine production when the engine was actually spun up dry with the oil pan off. The flywheel/flexplate, crank, and balancer were then "balanced" inna automated fashion as a unique, matching "set". The flywheel, the crank counterweights, and the hub were all "drilled" as calc'd and determined by the machinery.

Because the "ears" on the hub were not inna position to allow a timing reference Mark to be stamped in place when at tdc on the compression stroke on #1 cylinder (when ya park the crank there, ya have nothing but air!), the reference Mark had to go inna different position that represented tdc compression on #8...simple, cheep workaround!!! Consequently, the balance factor on the similar crank "hub" used in the four cylinder apps does allow the timing Mark to be stamped in for #1 cylinder, so they time off #1...not some "workaround" cylinder.

"some" later sv engines did incorporate a true "harmonic balancer", designed just like the more common parts used with chryfordrolet motors, including the rubber "bonding" media. And yes...they will rot and slip the same. And yes...they can be "rebuilt" by folks that specialize in doing that. We have 'em available in the ihon online parts store.

And regarding the harmonic balancer-equipped motors, the same "positioning" of the timing Mark is involved there, so the "tradition" of working ignition timing from #8 cylinder was retained, no reason to change and confuse mechanics servicing these motors!

I know yawl get real tired of my continuing rag...but these I-4/sv motors are not the same as any chryfordrolet...any individual engine series from any manufacturer has it's own unique set of design variations that must be worked with. Hell...I'm struggling right now with trying to absorb 40 years worth of "tech" for Ford fe motors which are real close in design similarities with the IH I-4/sv stuff!
 
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michael mayben said:
"some" later sv engines did incorporate a true "harmonic balancer", designed just like the more common parts used with chryfordrolet motors, including the rubber "bonding" media. And yes...they will rot and slip the same. And yes...they can be "rebuilt" by folks that specialize in doing that. We have 'em available in the ihon online parts store.
Click to expand...

Well, I learned sumpin again.:gringrin:
the 1980 345 of tim's has the solid hub, when did they use them on the sv's?


michael mayben said:
And regarding the harmonic balancer-equipped motors, the same "positioning" of the timing Mark is involved there, so the "tradition" of working ignition timing from #8 cylinder was retained, no reason to change and confuse mechanics servicing these motors!
Click to expand...

Maybe they wanted to f--- with the chryfordrolet techs.. :dita:
 
Again Robert...tim's motor is a bastard assembled out of scrapcrap by "xxx"...we know that already! And the second "donor" block May have had all wrong pieces on it also so no one ever paid attention to what was "supposed" to be there!

I've done extensive research on this issue through all parts lists that carry I-4 and sv applications. Many different part numbers are referred to...but unfortunately not a single "illustration" in any IH parts list I've researched gives us something definitive. There is a correlation given through the use of "frame number cut", but since the illustrations don't match, ya can't use those to go by. Same for the service manuals, the illustrations/descriptions contained there-in are all over the place and not consistent as far as evolution of the sv series motors were concerned.

Based upon what I've gleaned...crank hubs were used right up through eop on some engine apps, harmonic balancers on others. That was most likely because of original production engine app...such as a tug, a forklift, a medium duty truck, a combine, a Scout, etc.

I'm sure that "xxx" used the "hub" (not balancer) from the original 304 and it does not match the balance scenario of any 345!

Dave and I met originally over a discussion of this same exact situation up at vida cafe! He was there when all this was taking place as a "factory dude" for ihc and can quote chapter and verse on this "balance" stuff and all the variations! That is why my 196 shakes like a bitch, the oem 152 flywheel was swapped in by the po...and the balance factor is wrong for the engine, even though the crank hub is correct! That will be corrected when the new stroker motor is built of course!

The stroker motor will receive a "crank trigger" ignition system...so the magnet wheel will have to be balanced to the hub, along with all pulleys and the rest of the motor innards once the rotating assembly is prepped for a true "balance job".
 
Robert kenney said:
well, I learned sumpin again.:gringrin:
the 1980 345 of tim's has the solid hub, when did they use them on the sv's?




Maybe they wanted to f--- with the chryfordrolet techs.. :dita:
Click to expand...

I'm tellin' ya...since I was an "apprentice" mechanic inna dodge/chrysler/plymouth dealership back in the day..and we did all the "sublet" light duty vehicle warranty work for the local IH dealers whose mechanics refused to work on anything other than IH ag equipment, it did fook with me a bunch!!!
 
One more thang that will fook with yore head regarding the balancer/hub deal...

The "hub" for a 266, a 304... And a 152, and a 196 are all identical. Then they were drilled for each engine they were mated to on the assembly line during the "balance" process. Then the timing Mark was stamped into the proper position for each engine app.

Therefore...if a 152 crank hub, is placed onna 304 crank, not only will the balance be all scruud, so will timing Mark location!!!

Think about all the boneyardin' swaparoos that occur with this old crap!!!! One more reason to verify cam timing when assembling an engine based upon crankshaft position, and if that's all scruuee, then ya gotta work through all the possibilities using geometry and precision measurement just like you have been going through!!
 
I don't want clutter this up with to much of my schnizz, but
tim's motor was originaly a 345 and the hub is the original one that was on it when he bought the truck new.. I did verify the timing marks and they were real close. He pulled it before it was rebuilt. Or re-unbuilt.:icon_eek:

thanks for the history lesson mm :gringrin:
 
Robert kenney said:
I don't want clutter this up with to much of my schnizz, but
tim's motor was originaly a 345 and the hub is the original one that was on it when he bought the truck new.. I did verify the timing marks and they were real close. He pulled it before it was rebuilt. Or re-unbuilt.:icon_eek:

thanks for the history lesson mm :gringrin:
Click to expand...

Great info...now we know the facts...that's one less thing to be concerned with about the tim saga! And even less so if yawl have the newest new motor dynamically balanced after the rod issue is handled.

By the way...I'm 99% certain we can source "rebuilt" connecting rods from the "source" you are familiar with. That might be a solution for tim...but I know that all the Ismail boyz (Isa/Mike/Jeff) will have tons of used rods to sort through and then have those "rebuilt"! Also, Mike roth has just parted a 345 that was beyond hope...I have the valve train out of it and it was mishmash of parts too, just like we've talked about the "welded vs. Boat" rocker deal!! So the rod set he May have could possibly be used?? I can find out about that Thursday nite when I see him.

And for the record the oem '74 345 in the sonjamobile that I'm doing now also had a harmonic balancer, not a hub. I've been "told" that all 345 and 392 had balancers, but until I can prove it with data, I'll just keep being a skeptic!
 
michael mayben said:
actually..there were two separate types of "crank hubs" used on IH sv and I-4 apps.

A true balancer/hub, each part of a "balanced assembly" done in mechanized engine production when the engine was actually spun up dry with the oil pan off. The flywheel/flexplate, crank, and balancer were then "balanced" inna automated fashion as a unique, matching "set". The flywheel, the crank counterweights, and the hub were all "drilled" as calc'd and determined by the machinery.

Because the "ears" on the hub were not inna position to allow a timing reference Mark to be stamped in place when at tdc on the compression stroke on #1 cylinder (when ya park the crank there, ya have nothing but air!), the reference Mark had to go inna different position that represented tdc compression on #8...simple, cheep workaround!!! Consequently, the balance factor on the similar crank "hub" used in the four cylinder apps does allow the timing Mark to be stamped in for #1 cylinder, so they time off #1...not some "workaround" cylinder.

"some" later sv engines did incorporate a true "harmonic balancer", designed just like the more common parts used with chryfordrolet motors, including the rubber "bonding" media. And yes...they will rot and slip the same. And yes...they can be "rebuilt" by folks that specialize in doing that. We have 'em available in the ihon online parts store.

And regarding the harmonic balancer-equipped motors, the same "positioning" of the timing Mark is involved there, so the "tradition" of working ignition timing from #8 cylinder was retained, no reason to change and confuse mechanics servicing these motors!

I know yawl get real tired of my continuing rag...but these I-4/sv motors are not the same as any chryfordrolet...any individual engine series from any manufacturer has it's own unique set of design variations that must be worked with. Hell...I'm struggling right now with trying to absorb 40 years worth of "tech" for Ford fe motors which are real close in design similarities with the IH I-4/sv stuff!
Click to expand...
please help I have a 79 sii 345. I set the #1 cyl. To tdc on the compression stroke and then set the rotor on the #1 spot on the cap. The motor runs. My question is when I set the #1 tdc does that make the #8 tdc also. This was before I knew about timing on the #8 cyl. When I time the motor the timing Mark is pretty much where it should be. There is a little hesataion (parden the spelling) when I take off from a stop. Thank you !!!!!!!
 
pushin_345 said:
please help I have a 79 sii 345. I set the #1 cyl. To tdc on the compression stroke and then set the rotor on the #1 spot on the cap. The motor runs. My question is when I set the #1 tdc does that make the #8 tdc also. This was before I knew about timing on the #8 cyl. When I time the motor the timing Mark is pretty much where it should be. There is a little hesataion (parden the spelling) when I take off from a stop. Thank you !!!!!!!
Click to expand...

No! Cylinder #1 and cylinder #8 are not any where close at each other's "tdc on compression stroke" setting! What you have done is "adjusted" the spark plug cable wiring position so that the engine will run. You can make any terminal #1 or #8 or #whatever as long as ya follow the firing order.

But why not simply go back in and make it right??? And..."pretty much" ain't even close to exact! Pretty much can be a mile or one degree!

I've previously explained "why" we must use cylinder #8 for ignition-related operations only when dealing with the sv motor series.

Once you have the distributor properly stabbed, then perform the "power timing" operation described in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...es-pertronix-require-timing-readjustment.html

Then see if that affects your "hesitation" issue. If it does not (or makes it worse), then start a new thread in the "carb tech" sub-forum and we'll talk ya through what to do! Power timing does not involve the use of a timing light, unless you are dealing with "specs" for emissions and gittin' smogged by the gummint, no timing light is needed....but ya must be able to hear and discern detonation, spark knock, or ping.
 
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michael mayben said:
no! Cylinder #1 and cylinder #8 are not any where close at each other's "tdc on compression stroke" setting! What you have done is "adjusted" the spark plug cable wiring position so that the engine will run. You can make any terminal #1 or #8 or #whatever as long as ya follow the firing order.

But why not simply go back in and make it right??? And..."pretty much" ain't even close to exact! Pretty much can be a mile or one degree!

I've previously explained "why" we must use cylinder #8 for ignition-related operations only when dealing with the sv motor series.

Once you have the distributor properly stabbed, then perform the "power timing" operation described in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...es-pertronix-require-timing-readjustment.html

Then see if that affects your "hesitation" issue. If it does not (or makes it worse), then start a new thread in the "carb tech" sub-forum and we'll talk ya through what to do! Power timing does not involve the use of a timing light, unless you are dealing with "specs" for emissions and gittin' smogged by the gummint, no timing light is needed....but ya must be able to hear and discern detonation, spark knock, or ping.
Click to expand...
thanks for the word up. I will do it either today or tomorrow and I will let you know thanks again!!! Jason
 
Hey Mike or anyone out there. I got the Scout to run much better. What would cause the timing Mark to move so much (flucuate) at least a 1/4 of an inch both ways. I regapped the plugs to .035 regapped the points to .016. Please tell. Jason
 
There are a number of places for "wear" in a distributor:

there is wear between the dist cam and the upper dist shaft. You can possibly "feel" this if you remove the cap and the rotor and try to move the dist cam on the shaft - side to side. The cam "rides" on "built up areas" (bearing surface) on the upper shaft.

The Holley dist in my 392 has a piece of felt under the rotor on top of the shaft that is supposed to get a few drops of motor periodically (every 12,000 miles, I think). I do not know if prestolite / delco distributors have the same "feature".

There is wear of the pins on the distributor plate that the dist weights rotate on.

There is wear of the bushing (maybe bearing) (shaft, also?) in the distributor housing that the dist shaft "rides in".

And, as michael mayben has stated a number of times. There is "end play" -- I think how much the dist shaft moves "up and down" (I ahve not paid enough attention.). There are thrust washers and different size washers to set end play -- I think -- at least on other distributors.

Michael has posted on end play a few times on this fourm, so if you "look" you should be able to find his comments on the subject.

Actually, there is also the possibility of wear on the distributor drive gears -- either on the dist shaft or on the cam (or crankshaft depending on the engine). But, I think you would have to have a lot of miles on the engine to "see this".
 
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Several things can cause that issue.

I don't remember "which" distributor you have. So let me know. For help in identifying various distributors used on IH apps, see this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/642-ihc-vehicle-distributor-identification.html

Trev is correct about the distributor endplay...but that doesn't show up when the rig is just at an idle...that allows the timing to "walk" continuously depending upon if engine is being accelerated or decelerated, has to do with "thrust" of the shaft from the helix of the drive interface. This can lead to random "detonation" due to unstable timing, that in turn can create some real issues mechanically with any engine that is running like that over time.

When running at idle, and the timing is "walking" as can be seen with the timing light, that is normally caused by a badly worn, but most likely "sticking" mechanical advance mechanism, the components that control the position of the breaker point cam. Again...the "fix" for that is a simple distributor overhaul or swap for a reman.

Also...the breaker plate mounting itself can be loose, or the "bearings" between the upper and lower breaker plate are missing (at least one of 'em).

Same for the vacuum advance unit, that needs to be tested for both proper actuation and if it will actually retain vacuum. See this thread for a test set-up, pay attention to post #5:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/tool-talk/1570-mityvac-thread.html

A vacuum advance unit that won't actuate and hold vacuum, is in reality a vacuum "leak" and affects drivability in many ways.

I service all types of distributors weekly (I'm doing a Ford/Holley today), but I don't have the ability to renew bushings, that work has to be farmed out to a rebuilder. However...normally the problems you describe are not caused by bushing/shaft "wear". They are caused by neglect over time. Refreshing the parts of the distributor above the main body is not a big deal, however...each version has it's own method of retaining the advance unit to the shaft...in the case of a Holley, removing the retainer clip without destroying it is a real bitch. And that clip is not a part that is readily available.

Also...a simple "check"...the rotor itself could be wrong for your distributor and be slopping around on the hub. Very common, and even the center conductor on the rotor can be "loose" depending upon which rotor and manufacturer's part it is. Same for an improper cap application, see this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/1567-prestolite-Holley-parts.html

Can you post some pics of your distributor/rotor/cap combo so we can tell more about it?
 
michael mayben said:
several things can cause that issue.

I don't remember "which" distributor you have. So let me know. For help in identifying various distributors used on IH apps, see this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/642-ihc-vehicle-distributor-identification.html

Trev is correct about the distributor endplay...but that doesn't show up when the rig is just at an idle...that allows the timing to "walk" continuously depending upon if engine is being accelerated or decelerated, has to do with "thrust" of the shaft from the helix of the drive interface. This can lead to random "detonation" due to unstable timing, that in turn can create some real issues mechanically with any engine that is running like that over time.

When running at idle, and the timing is "walking" as can be seen with the timing light, that is normally caused by a badly worn, but most likely "sticking" mechanical advance mechanism, the components that control the position of the breaker point cam. Again...the "fix" for that is a simple distributor overhaul or swap for a reman.

Also...the breaker plate mounting itself can be loose, or the "bearings" between the upper and lower breaker plate are missing (at least one of 'em).

Same for the vacuum advance unit, that needs to be tested for both proper actuation and if it will actually retain vacuum. See this thread for a test set-up, pay attention to post #5:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/tool-talk/1570-mityvac-thread.html

A vacuum advance unit that won't actuate and hold vacuum, is in reality a vacuum "leak" and affects drivability in many ways.

I service all types of distributors weekly (I'm doing a Ford/Holley today), but I don't have the ability to renew bushings, that work has to be farmed out to a rebuilder. However...normally the problems you describe are not caused by bushing/shaft "wear". They are caused by neglect over time. Refreshing the parts of the distributor above the main body is not a big deal, however...each version has it's own method of retaining the advance unit to the shaft...in the case of a Holley, removing the retainer clip without destroying it is a real bitch. And that clip is not a part that is readily available.

Also...a simple "check"...the rotor itself could be wrong for your distributor and be slopping around on the hub. Very common, and even the center conductor on the rotor can be "loose" depending upon which rotor and manufacturer's part it is. Same for an improper cap application, see this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/1567-prestolite-Holley-parts.html

Can you post some pics of your distributor/rotor/cap combo so we can tell more about it?
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the Scout is a 79 with the presto. I pulled the presto due to the mod being bad and put a Holley points dizzy in from a 72 just to get it running.points/cap and rotor are new. I got the new control mod for the presto but know the vacuum advance isint holding vac.I took apart the vacuum advance unit looked down inside I have a crack in the rubber diaphram (bad vacuum advance)where could I source one for the presto. Thanks for your help!!!
 
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