marquette engine analyzer
- Thread starter richsbca
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
The marquette stuff was a very popular "value line" product. Have you searched online for information?
I work with peerless analyzers, they are very similar products to marquette as they were aimed at the same market...entry level/budget price.
Post pics of the machine and all the cabling, I'll tell ya how to connect it. That shit was new when I was in my prime, we had several of those in the community college auto tech program I taught in.
I do have a few operator's guides for the peerless stuff, like I said, the marquette is not much different.
Philbin electric in portland, or was a service center for the marquette products of all types, contact them for information also:
the philbin group - industry information
I work with peerless analyzers, they are very similar products to marquette as they were aimed at the same market...entry level/budget price.
Post pics of the machine and all the cabling, I'll tell ya how to connect it. That shit was new when I was in my prime, we had several of those in the community college auto tech program I taught in.
I do have a few operator's guides for the peerless stuff, like I said, the marquette is not much different.
Philbin electric in portland, or was a service center for the marquette products of all types, contact them for information also:
the philbin group - industry information
Thanks michael! I'll try to contact phillbin group as well. That name sounds famillar, do they rebuild distributers?
Rich
Rich
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Yep, philbin rebuilds distributors and all types of automotive-related electrical apparatus, including blower and wiper motors. Great folks to deal with inna real old skool environment, the place looks like hell inside but that is because they are an old time business!
Your marquette is the pro version, very full-featured! Not the less featured versions sold through auto parts distributors. It is equivalent to the peerless pulsar "infra-red" version that lyle bought originally off ebay and has stored here now. He later bought a more modern model peerless he found at philbin's after making a trip there looking for literature for his first peerless unit!
It has a magnetic timing pickup to use on some vehicles that came into being in the late 70's, the first "computer" rigs. That timing pickup mounts in a holder down on the front of the timing cover on selected engines to provide a crank pickup signal for synchronization.
We can easily figure out a basic hookup for ya so you can play with this, no way to cause any damage.
What I need is a set of pics with the test leads pulled out (such as laying on a table in front of the machine) so I can see where they actually enter the machine and show the label for each test lead. Not all test leads are used on all engine hookups. This machine was developed as a "bridge" analyzer between the older analog units made for breaker point ignition systems only that would also work on the "second generation" electronic ignition and charging systems coming into being at that point.
I also need a closer view of the front of the instruments and control console also.
Were there any additional "loose" test leads included with the machine or other adapters for coil towers, spark plug cable extensions, etc.??
Your marquette is the pro version, very full-featured! Not the less featured versions sold through auto parts distributors. It is equivalent to the peerless pulsar "infra-red" version that lyle bought originally off ebay and has stored here now. He later bought a more modern model peerless he found at philbin's after making a trip there looking for literature for his first peerless unit!
It has a magnetic timing pickup to use on some vehicles that came into being in the late 70's, the first "computer" rigs. That timing pickup mounts in a holder down on the front of the timing cover on selected engines to provide a crank pickup signal for synchronization.
We can easily figure out a basic hookup for ya so you can play with this, no way to cause any damage.
What I need is a set of pics with the test leads pulled out (such as laying on a table in front of the machine) so I can see where they actually enter the machine and show the label for each test lead. Not all test leads are used on all engine hookups. This machine was developed as a "bridge" analyzer between the older analog units made for breaker point ignition systems only that would also work on the "second generation" electronic ignition and charging systems coming into being at that point.
I also need a closer view of the front of the instruments and control console also.
Were there any additional "loose" test leads included with the machine or other adapters for coil towers, spark plug cable extensions, etc.??
Yes I had a distrubitor rebuild by the good folks at philbin! Mark was a pleasure to deal with.
Didn't have any other wired leads, but I took photos of the ones I have and they May not be in the correct plugs. Just matched the color codes and it seems like most of the plugs were keyed.
Only leads not shown are the battery load test clamps which are the standard jumper cable type clamps, however the load test doesn't seem to work.
So the leads on the arm in the labeled picture are the primary ignition plugs and the others I held the connector next to the plug in the back of the unit.
Can't tell you how much I appreicate this michael! Thanks again!
Rich
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Done some searching but I've not found any decent info regarding your marquette machine online.
So let's start from scratch regarding the test leads. Keep in mind I May May be incorrect on a few points, we just need to work through this. I'm going to use your jpeg numbers posted for reference:
051: the aqua color lead is an inductive connector, it May have an arrow on it to denote directionality, if so, the arrow points to the distributor cap, connector goes on the coil lead to trigger the scope. I think...the blue connector goes to the coil negatve terminal and is used to trigger the dwell meter...follow that cable to the machine and see if it doesn't say something like "ignition primary" or "tach"? Does that lead go to the port labeled "primary ignition input"??
The two leads with the large battery clamps go to the battery positive and negative terminals. The smaller alligator with the red boot also goes to battery b+.
058: the small red and black alligators are used for measuring either resistance (ohmmeter) or voltage (volt meter), just like a handheld analog vom.
059/060: that is the mag pickup used on some engines equipped with a "holder" down close to the crank pulley/balancer that had provisions for "mag timing". That probe was simply inserted into the holder, roation of the crank pulley then triggered that probe and the timing number dis[lays on the analog meter. That system has no use on any IH-produced engine as they did not have provisions for a magnetic timing pickup (used instead of a timing light).
038: the large gray inductive clamp is for the timing light. Of course, on a sv engine it goes on #8 plug cable, and it May also be directional with an arrow that points towards the spark plug. I May be wrong, and have the description of the two inductive pickups transposed, determine where each lead goes on the boom and read the label for correct orientation.
040: I believe that white potted connector is used only on the delco hei distributor used in GM stuff. It snaps/clamps down over the top of the ignition coil mounted in the distributor cap. That is used instead of the pickup for the coil secondary lead and is used to trigger the scope for use only on an hei distributor.
057: I can see the timing light in the background. The note you see on the label refers to the fact that the light has the "dial-back" feature for testing the vacuum and mechanical advance segments of the distributor by. For basic timing readout, make sure the switch is either turned off or is set to zero (0), other wise the timing display will not be correct.
If the unit has a somewhat heavier gauge set of alligators and cables, those are used on the battery for a "load" test, that requires a separate adapter that goes on the battery positive post and is a large super-duty resistor unit that is used to momentarily "load" the battery to check the battery and charging system for discharge/charge operation. Those cables probably lead to the port connector labeled "amps".
The vacuum gauge will either have a fitting on the machine to use a simple hose connection that goes to an available manifold vacuum port on the engine, or...if it is an electric vacuum gauge, there is a small box with a cable that goes into one side and vacuum hose coming out the other side. That is a transducer used to convert an vacuum signal to an electrical signal to run the actual vacuum meter on the panel.
Does that account for all the test leads? If so, connect those up and gimme a pic of the setup on a live motor. Then I'll attempt to explain the test configurations, buttons to push, and the basic scope operation.
So let's start from scratch regarding the test leads. Keep in mind I May May be incorrect on a few points, we just need to work through this. I'm going to use your jpeg numbers posted for reference:
051: the aqua color lead is an inductive connector, it May have an arrow on it to denote directionality, if so, the arrow points to the distributor cap, connector goes on the coil lead to trigger the scope. I think...the blue connector goes to the coil negatve terminal and is used to trigger the dwell meter...follow that cable to the machine and see if it doesn't say something like "ignition primary" or "tach"? Does that lead go to the port labeled "primary ignition input"??
The two leads with the large battery clamps go to the battery positive and negative terminals. The smaller alligator with the red boot also goes to battery b+.
058: the small red and black alligators are used for measuring either resistance (ohmmeter) or voltage (volt meter), just like a handheld analog vom.
059/060: that is the mag pickup used on some engines equipped with a "holder" down close to the crank pulley/balancer that had provisions for "mag timing". That probe was simply inserted into the holder, roation of the crank pulley then triggered that probe and the timing number dis[lays on the analog meter. That system has no use on any IH-produced engine as they did not have provisions for a magnetic timing pickup (used instead of a timing light).
038: the large gray inductive clamp is for the timing light. Of course, on a sv engine it goes on #8 plug cable, and it May also be directional with an arrow that points towards the spark plug. I May be wrong, and have the description of the two inductive pickups transposed, determine where each lead goes on the boom and read the label for correct orientation.
040: I believe that white potted connector is used only on the delco hei distributor used in GM stuff. It snaps/clamps down over the top of the ignition coil mounted in the distributor cap. That is used instead of the pickup for the coil secondary lead and is used to trigger the scope for use only on an hei distributor.
057: I can see the timing light in the background. The note you see on the label refers to the fact that the light has the "dial-back" feature for testing the vacuum and mechanical advance segments of the distributor by. For basic timing readout, make sure the switch is either turned off or is set to zero (0), other wise the timing display will not be correct.
If the unit has a somewhat heavier gauge set of alligators and cables, those are used on the battery for a "load" test, that requires a separate adapter that goes on the battery positive post and is a large super-duty resistor unit that is used to momentarily "load" the battery to check the battery and charging system for discharge/charge operation. Those cables probably lead to the port connector labeled "amps".
The vacuum gauge will either have a fitting on the machine to use a simple hose connection that goes to an available manifold vacuum port on the engine, or...if it is an electric vacuum gauge, there is a small box with a cable that goes into one side and vacuum hose coming out the other side. That is a transducer used to convert an vacuum signal to an electrical signal to run the actual vacuum meter on the panel.
Does that account for all the test leads? If so, connect those up and gimme a pic of the setup on a live motor. Then I'll attempt to explain the test configurations, buttons to push, and the basic scope operation.
Thanks michael! Just got back from a business trip in montreal,CA, so I'll get on that some time this weekend and post some pics, and I think you accounted for all the leads I'll need.
Thanks for all your help michael! The occilliscope doesnt seem to work. It's real shotty and I think it May have something to do with the selector dial (seems like the connection is worn out).
I need to figure out what I want to do with this thing.
Thanks again for all your help!
Rich
I need to figure out what I want to do with this thing.
Thanks again for all your help!
Rich
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
All these analyzers that use the push button banks have issues regarding dirty contacts in the switch mechanisms. All the years of atmospheric moisture, air-borne crap swirling' around in the shop(s), and plain old oxidation of the contactors takes it's toll. Sometimes they simply won't engage after repeated pushing and then all of a sudden one will lock in and everything comes to life!
I use compressed air and simply blow into the switch button areas over and over to flush out any dirt. Then come back and blow electrical contact cleaner into the switches while playing the button piano over and over! Then blow with air again. Then a final douche if they seem to start coming to life using a silicone spray. Then blow out with air again.
When ya remove the switch panels from each position and get 'em on the bench, it's pretty easy to clean and determine why they don't work. A bit of surgery usually brings 'em to life.
Does the scope light up at all? If not, there is a fuse for it somewhere, either in the back in a holder, or inside the cabinet. With no leads connected to anything, it should still light off and you would have a trace/"blip" crawling across the crt once you get the potentiometers adjusted just right for the pattern length and placement on the base line. Diddle with the knobs with it turned on. If it's a green background or a gray background, you should see it light off in a very dim form when power is applied.
I use compressed air and simply blow into the switch button areas over and over to flush out any dirt. Then come back and blow electrical contact cleaner into the switches while playing the button piano over and over! Then blow with air again. Then a final douche if they seem to start coming to life using a silicone spray. Then blow out with air again.
When ya remove the switch panels from each position and get 'em on the bench, it's pretty easy to clean and determine why they don't work. A bit of surgery usually brings 'em to life.
Does the scope light up at all? If not, there is a fuse for it somewhere, either in the back in a holder, or inside the cabinet. With no leads connected to anything, it should still light off and you would have a trace/"blip" crawling across the crt once you get the potentiometers adjusted just right for the pattern length and placement on the base line. Diddle with the knobs with it turned on. If it's a green background or a gray background, you should see it light off in a very dim form when power is applied.
I get the line on the scope, but it cuts out unless I rapidly keep moving the dial. Then I get a pattern at the top of the screen. But as soon as I stop wiggling the dial I lose it.
Do you know anyone who might be able to put this to use? I'm willing to give it away... I live in ojai,CA. Just don't have enough of a need to spend the time to get it to work. Should'nt have even bought it. Anyhow if you know anyone in the area who would like to have it and try to get it working again just let me know.
Do you know anyone who might be able to put this to use? I'm willing to give it away... I live in ojai,CA. Just don't have enough of a need to spend the time to get it to work. Should'nt have even bought it. Anyhow if you know anyone in the area who would like to have it and try to get it working again just let me know.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
That indicates that the potentiometer is trashy inside (the rotary switch), I had the same thing occur with all these units I've scruud with! Cleaning all the rotary switches/pots I do the same as the pushbutton switches...it's all about internal corrosion/oxidation, this stuff is very sensitive!
You are in ojai??? Hail, man...you need this machine to complete your new age/biofeedback equipment array! Them spacealiens will beam right into your shop for a dose onna daily basis!
Any IH vehicle parked on the street in ojai is about as politically-incorrect as it comes! Yore my kinda dude! Ya got crystals growin' on the dash?
Post it up in the classifieds...sumbody will jump on it!
Ha ha ha! It aint easy being me in ojai that's for sure! And yes I got my 79 Scout II in the drive way and my 66 former navy 800 sits proudly on the street for all to get upset about.
Only thing growing on my dash is the mold from an old stogy I left there about 2 years ago...
And for them spaceailiens, I just got my mossberg 500 with 00 buckshot loaded.
I'll have to put an ad on craigslist and see if anyone want's it.
Thanks again for all your input michael!
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
My mossberg 500 slamcocker sits right here on the desk beside me! Sometimes I use it for a shift stick in the s80 though.
kyleandhisIH
Member
This interests me a great deal - and I don't mean to hijack a thread that's basically over, but I'm just wondering what these engine analyzers can produce in the form of valuable information. I've been looking them up for the past hour now, and I can remember hearing old timers talk about scoping a motor before -and I could also use an oscilloscope for vac tube amplifier work.
How much can one expect to get a very basic one for, and what exactly will this type of analyzer tell you?
How much can one expect to get a very basic one for, and what exactly will this type of analyzer tell you?
The one I was working with was only about 75 dollars. Check around they're out there. Make sure they work first before you pay up, unlike me...
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
The engine analyzer industry reached it's zenith around 1990. That is when the use of a pc-based system became mandatory in any shop, whether dealership or independent in order to be able to work with the electronic fuel and ignition delivery systems on vehicles of that era. For a couple of years,during that time, I worked for allen testproducts who were the leaders in that bizz, selling and training on their products.
The "cams" machine that was forced into all GM dealerships in that era (produced and supported by eds) was only of use on GM products and thus was useless for work on any other vehicle.
Since then (and with the advent of obdii in '95/'96) the handheld "scan" tool industry has exploded which is the norm in shops today. However with few exceptions, the handheld units do not have actual engine mechanical diagnostic capability as provided by the use of a scope.
All this leads up to the total obsolescence of the older units in typical shops, even though folks kept 'em around to use on vehicles for which they were more suited. Most of 'em got rolled into the storeroom where they have set forever at this point. After about 1985, most shops never saw any oldskool vehicles to work on and as the industry had shifted to electronic engine management in it's crudest form...and that is when the real shitstorm hit the automotive service industry!
Several years ago, a market for this stuff emerged as a companion for the folks equipping their home shops with vintage tools and test gear. The sun versions of the analog stuff that pre-dates the use of the scope is especially popular now, since most of us old farts grew up gittin' skooled on that stuff and using it to make a living. Collecting oldskool instrumentation is just as popular now as collectin' the cars and trucks! Kinda like toob amplifiers and vintage sound equipment!
By far the most useful item in the analyzer console is the scope and it's ability to be fairly quickly connected into the engine system. And that is what makes those units perfect for use in home shops today in working with this ihc-produced junk. While the earlier units will trigger only from a breaker point system, as they evolved along with engine technology, they were redesigned so that they could be used with most all of the electronic ignition systems on the market of that era as long as the proper test lead adapters were incorporated.
Of the two peerless units I have in the shop, the oldest one will trigger from most electronic distributors including the gold box and the pertronix conversion which are hall effect systems. But it can't be used with a capacitive discharge system as provided by the msd/accel/mallory/crane/etc. Add-on boxes.
The later model peerless will trigger and also includes a pickup used on delco hei coil-in-cap systems that were popular back in the day.
Sun electric, allen testproducts, and bear/otc dominated the analyzer industry back then. Allen was the leader in developing the pc-based analyzer (the infamous "smartscope") that required incessant software updates by subscription. We made our money off the lease of these machines and the mandatory software updates.
The stuff like marquette, peerless, alltest, etc. Was marketed through auto parts jobbers and independent tool distributors and was somewhat lower in initial purchase cost and also did not have diagnostic capability that would interface with the first and second generation of electronic engine management crap intro'd in the mid-'80's.
The unique characteristic of the peerless stuff like I have is the ability for each instrument unit to be separated and used stand-alone, including the scope. The entire system is 12vdc-powered and can be connected to an engine, the instrument placed in the passenger compartment, and then the stuff used while the rig is going down the road,...even the exhaust gas analyzer!
All automotive training textbooks were written with extensive sections dealing with the use of the these machines, the basic interpretation of an inductive ignition system scope pattern set is common to any gasoline/spark engine. Many textbooks were written that were used solely for in depth analysis of all the instrumentation used in the typical shop, those books are found in used book stores everywhere, I collect 'em!
Also, both sun and allen were heavily involved in marketing training for pro mechanics. Allen was by far the leader in training regarding analyzer integration and electronic engine management diagnostics and became much more highly regarded in that respect in the later years as sun struggled through bankruptcy and then acquisition by snap-on.
So...any of the analog instruments that actually still work that were produced between about '60 and '80 would be great units for what you might like to learn about! I go through stages of using my stuff, simply depends upon the work at hand at the time. I always use the scope when ejumakatin' these kidz that come to binder u. Initially if that is what they are interested in. Once you see an ignition system in actual operation on the screen, it's real ez to get the big picture.
And if the machine is a full-featured unit, the ability to dynamically read compression, kill cylinders, etc. Is a tremendous tool in diagnostic work, as well as confirming repair work.
Mike, read the thread very interesting and informative. Thanks. I am looking at an atlas engine analyzer on craigs list:
engine analyzer
Can u tell me anthing about this manufacturere and model.
Thanks in advance for any information.
Ron
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Interesting unit ron!
I'm not familiar with that atlas machine. But here is what I "think" it is....
The "atlas" tradename was held by the old consortium of humble/esso/enco/exxon oil company. When I say consortium, that is because there was a relationship between between humble and chevron (and subsidiaries) back in those days where they each accepted the other's credit cards and used a common distribution system for all products sold through their stations. That included every small part ever marketed in a service station, excellent tires, batteries, etc., tools, shop supplies/equipment, even furniture, paper goods, etc. Everything to took to equip and operate a full service location the kicker to that was...the dealer's "account". That meant ez-credit for all dealer purchases which were paid for through the exchange of credit card transactions each time a wholesale fuel delivery was made.
So humble/chevron in turn made "private label" deals with every supplier imaginable for anything used in a typical service station.
Wish those Craig's pics were better, I could tell more about this machine. Again, I "think" it is actually a peerless unit produced in the late 70's based upon the graphics and font style on the analog instruments. That is much more of a "pro" level machine than the peerless units I have though it's not portable in that it can be used with a vehicle when actually driving.
Those were sold with the main unit that could be set on an existing bench/cart, or hung from an overhead trolley. The base cabinet was an option to provide portability in the shop.
I think I have a typical hei-style "adapter" in a tub full of analyzer accesories, etc. That actually snapped down over the hei coil (it's a strange type of inductive pickup) mounted on top of the distributor cap so there was no other way of connecting pickups to the hei ignition system.
Iirc, hei was beginning to be introduced as an oem system in model year 1973, prior to that another type of "electronic ignition" (magpulse) using a mag trigger was an option on selected GM vehicles. So if that machine was originally equipped with an hei pickup, then it had to have been marketed sometime after that. And by 1981 or so, those machines were moving into the "computerized" age and were taken out of production by all the equipment manufacturers.
I don't see any price associated with that ad, so I'm assuming this machine is "free"??? If so, jump on it!
Thanks for posting this, I really enjoy looking at and discussing this old stuff!
I'm not familiar with that atlas machine. But here is what I "think" it is....
The "atlas" tradename was held by the old consortium of humble/esso/enco/exxon oil company. When I say consortium, that is because there was a relationship between between humble and chevron (and subsidiaries) back in those days where they each accepted the other's credit cards and used a common distribution system for all products sold through their stations. That included every small part ever marketed in a service station, excellent tires, batteries, etc., tools, shop supplies/equipment, even furniture, paper goods, etc. Everything to took to equip and operate a full service location the kicker to that was...the dealer's "account". That meant ez-credit for all dealer purchases which were paid for through the exchange of credit card transactions each time a wholesale fuel delivery was made.
So humble/chevron in turn made "private label" deals with every supplier imaginable for anything used in a typical service station.
Wish those Craig's pics were better, I could tell more about this machine. Again, I "think" it is actually a peerless unit produced in the late 70's based upon the graphics and font style on the analog instruments. That is much more of a "pro" level machine than the peerless units I have though it's not portable in that it can be used with a vehicle when actually driving.
Those were sold with the main unit that could be set on an existing bench/cart, or hung from an overhead trolley. The base cabinet was an option to provide portability in the shop.
I think I have a typical hei-style "adapter" in a tub full of analyzer accesories, etc. That actually snapped down over the hei coil (it's a strange type of inductive pickup) mounted on top of the distributor cap so there was no other way of connecting pickups to the hei ignition system.
Iirc, hei was beginning to be introduced as an oem system in model year 1973, prior to that another type of "electronic ignition" (magpulse) using a mag trigger was an option on selected GM vehicles. So if that machine was originally equipped with an hei pickup, then it had to have been marketed sometime after that. And by 1981 or so, those machines were moving into the "computerized" age and were taken out of production by all the equipment manufacturers.
I don't see any price associated with that ad, so I'm assuming this machine is "free"??? If so, jump on it!
Thanks for posting this, I really enjoy looking at and discussing this old stuff!
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
If that analyzer actually operates, it would be absolutely perfect for your 'vette motor or any other package from that era!
A pertronix conversion for any distributor is a "hall effect" technology. The actual electronic component is the same for any distributor application, no matter what "brand".
And yes, a pertronix will trigger any of these analyzers. But...they won't read a capacitive discharge system triggered by a pertronix or points. That would be something like the mallory/msd/crane/accel "six" series boxes.
Even an engine equipped with the delco hei electronic ignition which came later on the 'vettes will read of course as we previously mentioned. An hei system is an inductive system and bears no relationship to a capacitive discharge system.
With a pertronix conversion in the distributor, your "firing line" pattern on the scope (primary ignition pattern) will still display a dwell reading just like breaker points. That is because the actual "dwell" is a function of the air gap between the magnet wheel and the pickup on the pertronix. Assuming you are using the traditional delco distributor that was oem on the 'vette (and all GM products of that era), that distance had to have been "adjusted" when the pertronix conversion was installed. And the actual dwell you see displayed on the scope will be the same as what it was with breaker points only it will display as a very accurate "trigger signal" instead of the somewhat wavering signal provide by the points/condenser which is an electro-mechanical device and not nearly as accurate.
A pertronix dwell will also display correctly on any analog "stand-alone" dwell meter.
I'm attaching a basic scope pattern interpretation of the primary signal for you, this is from a college-level textbook that I used when I was teaching this stuff years ago.
