Limited disassembly of a 1980 IC 196
- Thread starter Mark Pietz
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Mark Pietz
Member
Got a chance to drill out the mounting bolt holes. It mounts up beautifully and there will be plenty of clearance for the hoses that will eventually leave/enter the casting. Since the remote oil filter adaptors use 1/2" fittings, I need to drill and tap accordingly. I have the tap, but discovered I don't have the 45/64" bit needed for the hole. Another trip down the hill….
The single hole on the right is the outlet; the two on the left can be returns. I will use probably the lower left boss as a pick-off for an oil temp gauge. There is also sufficient meat that I could tap the casting's side (return side) for a source of oil for the turbo itself. This would be filtered and cool if the (anticipated) t-stat has opened and cooled the oil.
The single hole on the right is the outlet; the two on the left can be returns. I will use probably the lower left boss as a pick-off for an oil temp gauge. There is also sufficient meat that I could tap the casting's side (return side) for a source of oil for the turbo itself. This would be filtered and cool if the (anticipated) t-stat has opened and cooled the oil.
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Mark Pietz
Member
Disc to adapt the carb adaptor to the f flow compressor housing is essentially finished. I turned the outside diameter to about 4", which is the overall circle described by the apices of the triangular mounting boss underneath, and then faced to within 0.100" of what I thought I needed. I drilled and tapped new 5/16" holes in the housing, then countersunk the surface of the disc so the mounting bolts' heads are flush, or less, than its surface. Then after I put the turbo back on the vehicle, I can properly orient the adaptor and carb to get its new location. Then drill and tap into the disc. The turbo can actually be reassembled now. I consider this "adaptor to an adaptor" as a temporary measure and am now constructing a new pattern out of wood, from which to make a new, one piece adaptor.
Mark Pietz
Member
Had time to drill and tap the machined disc that mounts to the f flow compressor housing. After building a simple jig from a stick and bondo to clock the adaptor to the new housing, based on the previously used housing, I determined where the 5/16" holes go. The jig is too primitive and embarrassing to post a pic, but it worked…
of course, one of my holes was slightly off and required drilling out a flange hole on the adaptor, but everything now fits nicely. I just need to sandblast the housing to clean up the grunge on its exterior, and then bolt it all back together with fresh gaskets. The main objective is for this assembly to be vacuum tight. I am working on a completely new adaptor, in any case, that will be one piece and utilize the triangular mounting face on the compressor housing.
of course, one of my holes was slightly off and required drilling out a flange hole on the adaptor, but everything now fits nicely. I just need to sandblast the housing to clean up the grunge on its exterior, and then bolt it all back together with fresh gaskets. The main objective is for this assembly to be vacuum tight. I am working on a completely new adaptor, in any case, that will be one piece and utilize the triangular mounting face on the compressor housing.
Mark Pietz
Member
Finally!!! Ever do a small task and it ends up light pulling teeth???
I set about to reassemble the turbo. I won't go into that other than to say that I had the damaged turbine-side bore for the little piston ring machined and polished, as service done by clark's corvair. They know more about these things than anyone…a special piston ring seal - it's oversize, is supplied. The little plastic suppressor ring, which compresses it so you can slide it into the bore, wouldn't compress it enough and to make a long story short, I scratched the bore in trying to get it installed. I finally gave up on it and will call clark's tomorrow about getting a new piston ring and suppressor ring and plot a new strategy, but this assembly will be a spare. The turbo setup I bought recently from a poster on the bp board, well, I took it apart and discovered that the center housing was in excellent shape, except heavily carboned. So I cleaned it and put everything back together today using those parts. What you see here is a center section with an f flow compressor, and b flow turbine. When I had the previous turbo on, I had guesstimated using an e flow cold side and f flow hot side, and the boost came on late. By way of comparison, this turbo has the turbine side as the same as for the 152t, so with the 196's extra cubes, boost should come on earlier. There are other variables, of course, gearing comes into play (my 3.73s and a Scout II's extra weight should load the turbo quicker than the 4.27s typical on the 152ts), and the f flow should not heat up the intake charge like the b flow would.
Even though the turbo is now back together, I am at a major decision point on when to put this stuff back on the 196. It won't be any time soon, as other things need to be done to the Scout first.
I set about to reassemble the turbo. I won't go into that other than to say that I had the damaged turbine-side bore for the little piston ring machined and polished, as service done by clark's corvair. They know more about these things than anyone…a special piston ring seal - it's oversize, is supplied. The little plastic suppressor ring, which compresses it so you can slide it into the bore, wouldn't compress it enough and to make a long story short, I scratched the bore in trying to get it installed. I finally gave up on it and will call clark's tomorrow about getting a new piston ring and suppressor ring and plot a new strategy, but this assembly will be a spare. The turbo setup I bought recently from a poster on the bp board, well, I took it apart and discovered that the center housing was in excellent shape, except heavily carboned. So I cleaned it and put everything back together today using those parts. What you see here is a center section with an f flow compressor, and b flow turbine. When I had the previous turbo on, I had guesstimated using an e flow cold side and f flow hot side, and the boost came on late. By way of comparison, this turbo has the turbine side as the same as for the 152t, so with the 196's extra cubes, boost should come on earlier. There are other variables, of course, gearing comes into play (my 3.73s and a Scout II's extra weight should load the turbo quicker than the 4.27s typical on the 152ts), and the f flow should not heat up the intake charge like the b flow would.
Even though the turbo is now back together, I am at a major decision point on when to put this stuff back on the 196. It won't be any time soon, as other things need to be done to the Scout first.
Mark Pietz
Member
Robert,
kicking around a thought here on the engine oil cooler. I now have my custom base to pick off/return oil. Yay! There is a discussion going on on bp right now about using coolant to cool the oil. I see that my '85 jimmy had that option for a towing package. GM also used these on c3 vettes and some camaros. It was a sandwich between the oil filter and block and coolant circulated through it. I'm going to have a busy "front of the radiator" situation going when I add an a/c condenser, and in general, going this other route would be simpler for plumbing and space.
Thoughts on this?
kicking around a thought here on the engine oil cooler. I now have my custom base to pick off/return oil. Yay! There is a discussion going on on bp right now about using coolant to cool the oil. I see that my '85 jimmy had that option for a towing package. GM also used these on c3 vettes and some camaros. It was a sandwich between the oil filter and block and coolant circulated through it. I'm going to have a busy "front of the radiator" situation going when I add an a/c condenser, and in general, going this other route would be simpler for plumbing and space.
Thoughts on this?
FDChappie
Well-known member
I think using a coolant/oil heat exchanger is a great way to go. It will help warm the oil when it's cold up their too. Don't get to busy in front of that radiator, you're going to need lots of room for a big intercooler. I've really enjoyed seeing your progress in casting aluminum parts.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Mark,
I have used those oil filter adapter oil coolers on numerous applications including marine. My ski boat which is mildly
modified, is running one. They work great and am planning on running on o my Scout once it is turbocharged. I use the c3 oem GM one. 5/8 hose in and out.
Take coolant from the outlet side of the wp through the cooler and back into the inlet side of the pump.
Mark Pietz
Member
Mark,
I have used those oil filter adapter oil coolers on numerous applications including marine. My ski boat which is mildly
They work great and am planning on running on o my Scout once it is turbocharged. I use the c3 oem GM one. 5/8 hose in and out.
Take coolant from the outlet side of the wp through the cooler and back into the inlet side of the pump.
There are some pics on the net of that device, and I see one on ebay (but it has some questionable dings on it). Regarding how to mount it...in the Scout II engine compartment, driver's side motor mount bracket, I had envisioned mounting a remote oil filter adaptor on the back side of the motor mount bracket and the oil filter would point down. This GM thing would mount between the remote oil filter mount and the oil filter itself. Have to use a GM filter <
> I think arranging the soft lines would be fairly easy. Plenty of room on the side of a four-popper where the other bank of cylinders should have been.Mark Pietz
Member
Intercooler? Not on a draw-through setup! But I must have my air conditioning, and putting a large parallel flow condenser in there's going to fill up what little space exists between the grill and the radiator. I finished rebuilding the evaporator box and duct used on the 1971-78 Scout iis. Got it all painted and purdy. Although my Scout is a 1980, the a/c in it had been stripped and I located the earlier style unit. However, I saw that the light line had replacement "brushed stainless steel" trim panels for the duct, just like what the 1980s used for the instrument panel (1979s used the "engine turned" swirled trim for the dash and a/c duct, and also the wood grain style). A poster on bp had some custom decals made for his for the on-off and max-min dials, and I picked up a set from him. So my duct looks like what a 1980 would have had had they used the earlier style. Works for me, anyway.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
there are some pics on the net of that device, and I see one on ebay (but it has some questionable dings on it). Regarding how to mount it...in the Scout II engine compartment, driver's side motor mount bracket, I had envisioned mounting a remote oil filter adaptor on the back side of the motor mount bracket and the oil filter would point down. This GM thing would mount between the remote oil filter mount and the oil filter itself. Have to use a GM filter <
Here is an oem Ford one that fits on a f1la,ph8a Ford application. T bird turbo coupe, police interceptor crown vic +++++.
I vote for mounting the oem IH oil filter adapter on and going from there.
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Mark Pietz
Member
Well, that's a horse of a different color! I agree, I'd prefer to keep the original type oil filter. I'll have to scare one of those up.
Mark Pietz
Member
The past few months have seen little activity on my project due to job demands, etc. However, last week I did acquire a travel top and will be repairing it so it can be useable and making the Scout user friendly (I now have a terra top and panel for sale...).
As mentioned in an earlier post, I was nosing around for a poor man's dyno and finally bought the dynolicious app and got it loaded onto my iphone. Looking for a suitable windshield mount for it now. This thing is interesting. You load in vehicle weight, passenger weight, how many gallons the tank holds and calculates weight (has a 'slider' you move to account for how much fuel you guesstimate is left in the tank and you watch the overall weight reduce - pretty nifty). Once you 'arm' it for a run, it signals by voice when it is ready, and begins automatically when it senses forward acceleration, then you tap it to stop (presumably when you've crossed the 1/4 mile Mark). Then it calculates rear wheel horsepower. When I get the travel top installed I can chug on down to the local weigh station for a new baseline weight, then away I go. Since this thing starts when it senses acceleration, that makes it easy to simply rev it up and let out the clutch and not worry about simultaneously pressing a start button on a stopwatch or whatever. Edit: had a chance to play with it using my toyota...you launch at your convenience and as you run down your flat stretch, it is using gps to tick off your 1/8 and then 1/4 mile points. You don't even need to pay attention to that. Just blast off and nail it.
As mentioned in an earlier post, I was nosing around for a poor man's dyno and finally bought the dynolicious app and got it loaded onto my iphone. Looking for a suitable windshield mount for it now. This thing is interesting. You load in vehicle weight, passenger weight, how many gallons the tank holds and calculates weight (has a 'slider' you move to account for how much fuel you guesstimate is left in the tank and you watch the overall weight reduce - pretty nifty). Once you 'arm' it for a run, it signals by voice when it is ready, and begins automatically when it senses forward acceleration, then you tap it to stop (presumably when you've crossed the 1/4 mile Mark). Then it calculates rear wheel horsepower. When I get the travel top installed I can chug on down to the local weigh station for a new baseline weight, then away I go. Since this thing starts when it senses acceleration, that makes it easy to simply rev it up and let out the clutch and not worry about simultaneously pressing a start button on a stopwatch or whatever. Edit: had a chance to play with it using my toyota...you launch at your convenience and as you run down your flat stretch, it is using gps to tick off your 1/8 and then 1/4 mile points. You don't even need to pay attention to that. Just blast off and nail it.
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Mark Pietz
Member
Robert,
woowhoo! I downloaded the dynolicious iphone dyno app and went for a test drive on my currently favorite level stretch located at about 1,200 foot elevation. Made a number of runs until I got a few "clean" launches and decent passes where I didn't miss a shift, as my t19 has a weak detent spring in the cross-over gate going to 3rd. I can chirp the tires in the launch (!), and with full smog gear and now a travel top (I guesstimated the adjustment in weight, but I'm sure I am very close), that slug of a truck, weighing about 4,200 lbs. Loaded, covers the quarter mile in 24.35 seconds, and 61.1 mph. Best et was 24.1 seconds. Rear wheel horsepower was 90 hp. Advertised horsepower for the 1979 Scout II w/196 was what - 79 hp. I doubt that's rear wheel hp but whatever. If I'm pulling an honest (or close) 90 hp at the wheels, then I think that engine is performing pretty darn good for what it is, which is probably due to that mild isky grind we did, quench, and more modern ignition. If this number is reproducible, then I have a great baseline for when I put that turbo back on, which is on the horizon.
woowhoo! I downloaded the dynolicious iphone dyno app and went for a test drive on my currently favorite level stretch located at about 1,200 foot elevation. Made a number of runs until I got a few "clean" launches and decent passes where I didn't miss a shift, as my t19 has a weak detent spring in the cross-over gate going to 3rd. I can chirp the tires in the launch (!), and with full smog gear and now a travel top (I guesstimated the adjustment in weight, but I'm sure I am very close), that slug of a truck, weighing about 4,200 lbs. Loaded, covers the quarter mile in 24.35 seconds, and 61.1 mph. Best et was 24.1 seconds. Rear wheel horsepower was 90 hp. Advertised horsepower for the 1979 Scout II w/196 was what - 79 hp. I doubt that's rear wheel hp but whatever. If I'm pulling an honest (or close) 90 hp at the wheels, then I think that engine is performing pretty darn good for what it is, which is probably due to that mild isky grind we did, quench, and more modern ignition. If this number is reproducible, then I have a great baseline for when I put that turbo back on, which is on the horizon.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Wow great numbers!! Did your seat of the pants dyno feel like it is better than the stocker?
90 at the rear wheels is damn good. Didn't the earlier 196's net at 110 hp?
90 at the rear wheels is damn good. Didn't the earlier 196's net at 110 hp?
Mark Pietz
Member
I had an early into which I transplanted a non-ic 196 from a model 800. That was my first rebuild, but it was stone cold stock (contour pistons, stock cam, Holley 1920) and 4.27 gears with that crappy t-90. My current 196 performs noticeably better, and having the shifting options a narrow t-19 provides doesn't hurt one bit. My seat of the pants opinion is that it pulls a lot better - and longer - in 3rd gear.
When you go back to the standard truck catalogue, you correctly note that the first 196s were rated at 110 hp, 180 ft/lbs torque. I believe these figures are gross. Then comes a noticeable decline in the '70s, and then we end up with 79 hp net by 1979/80, and who knows the effect of the cat by this time, although the carb itself is an improvement. For grins, it would be interesting to pop the dynolicious app on your early and run it on a flat . Unobstructed stretch somewhere around la verne, if any still exist! As a footnote, the app has a vibration filter, and for my rig, I had to set it at "unlimited", as it vibrates the phone on the end of my windshield mount's stalk. Need a better mount! Even so, there is an analysis at the end of each run for the quality of the data in the run, such as combining inputs from gps and data, etc. My best runs had middle-quality data, which is good enough until I get a better mount and spot to drive it on (this is in a canyon).
When you go back to the standard truck catalogue, you correctly note that the first 196s were rated at 110 hp, 180 ft/lbs torque. I believe these figures are gross. Then comes a noticeable decline in the '70s, and then we end up with 79 hp net by 1979/80, and who knows the effect of the cat by this time, although the carb itself is an improvement. For grins, it would be interesting to pop the dynolicious app on your early and run it on a flat . Unobstructed stretch somewhere around la verne, if any still exist! As a footnote, the app has a vibration filter, and for my rig, I had to set it at "unlimited", as it vibrates the phone on the end of my windshield mount's stalk. Need a better mount! Even so, there is an analysis at the end of each run for the quality of the data in the run, such as combining inputs from gps and data, etc. My best runs had middle-quality data, which is good enough until I get a better mount and spot to drive it on (this is in a canyon).
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Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Good idea! I should get a base line before I add the dhla's and turbo to my 152. I have put the stroker on hold since the crank guy screwed up on the rod journal fillets.
The 152 will be lively either way with the mods.
I'll post results.
Mark Pietz
Member
This thing doesn't have to be as good as an actual dyno, but the physics don't lie. There is an over-abundance of data obtained from over a half century of drag racing that demonstrates how much horsepower is required to accelerate a known mass (weight) over a known distance (1/4 mile). All one needs to know is an exact weight and a precise et. It isn't rocket science. So....as far as I'm concerned, this little app will serve the purposes of the backyard wrench monkey if it gives reproducible results. In my case, close enough is good enough because as hugh mcinnis stated regarding rear wheel horsepower or net or gross, it really doesn't matter. If you know one metric and then make an improvement and it goes up by 50%, then that means you had a 50% increase in power, as long as you compare apples to apples.
I think modern technology is wonderful. What's the worse you could be out? The $12.99 for the app?
I think modern technology is wonderful. What's the worse you could be out? The $12.99 for the app?
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
I might have needed to more concise in my post.
I agree that the phone app should be used to set a base line on my Scout before the hp adders are installed.
I also think the calculation should be done on a pull through a single gear and not shifting. Since the calculation is based on an average of the acceleration over a time, anything we can do that May smooth the data will positively effect the accuracy.
Again this is based on "I think" logic.
I agree that the phone app should be used to set a base line on my Scout before the hp adders are installed.
I also think the calculation should be done on a pull through a single gear and not shifting. Since the calculation is based on an average of the acceleration over a time, anything we can do that May smooth the data will positively effect the accuracy.
Again this is based on "I think" logic.
Mark Pietz
Member
Oh! The app gives more information than a simple et, trap speed, and horsepower estimate which May speak to your comment. It also has graphs the acceleration through the 1/4 mile in g's. For example, my launch was 0.4 gs, then declines, and it has a curve for shift points. You are right, though. First gear has the sharpest rise, then a peak (shifting into second), and then a ramp with less rise, then third, etc., and then a curve of average hp superimposed over all this (you can see slight dips at the shift points) - all plotted over time.
I'm looking at the acceleration breakdown, if this helps.
0-10 mph 1.79 seconds
0-20 5.03
0-30 7.84
0-40 13.60
0-50 18.21
0-60 23.54
then it gives et and mph for feet:
3.58 s @ 60 feet
10.45 s @ 330 feet
16.06 @ 1/8 mile
20.62 @ 1000 feet
so there's a lot more useful information presented that is gleaned from a run.
Edit: I forgot to add. This version of the app apparently allows linking to some website for sharing data with others using this app, as in comparing notes, I suppose. I am not interested in that, but maybe I should figure out how to export my data and post it here instead of transcribing it. Have to look into that...
I'm looking at the acceleration breakdown, if this helps.
0-10 mph 1.79 seconds
0-20 5.03
0-30 7.84
0-40 13.60
0-50 18.21
0-60 23.54
then it gives et and mph for feet:
3.58 s @ 60 feet
10.45 s @ 330 feet
16.06 @ 1/8 mile
20.62 @ 1000 feet
so there's a lot more useful information presented that is gleaned from a run.
Edit: I forgot to add. This version of the app apparently allows linking to some website for sharing data with others using this app, as in comparing notes, I suppose. I am not interested in that, but maybe I should figure out how to export my data and post it here instead of transcribing it. Have to look into that...
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Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Then I can take a ride in my 32 roadster...
I can't take it on a drag strip because it would need a cage to go faster than 14 sec in the 1/4 mile. I'd only get one pass then get kicked off..
Figure mid to low 10's. I could prove it now...
I can't take it on a drag strip because it would need a cage to go faster than 14 sec in the 1/4 mile. I'd only get one pass then get kicked off..
Figure mid to low 10's. I could prove it now...
Mark Pietz
Member
Indeed.
If I could post the graph....in looking at the above numbers, one can see if one's shift points are about where they should be....I'm holding it in 1st gear a tad too long, and 2nd comes on strong then settles out somewhat and is fairly consistent as the speed increases at the same rate per 10 mph - around 5 mph. I am also shifting into 4th near the end of the run but 3rd is really tapped out so there is no gain to keep it going a bit longer (my calculations indicate I'm pulling around 3,700 rpm by 55 mph or so).
I'm anxious to get that turbo re-installed. That could dramatically change the acceleration characteristics. I May get some boost at the end of 1st gear, but will be pulling it for sure in second and the rest.
If I could post the graph....in looking at the above numbers, one can see if one's shift points are about where they should be....I'm holding it in 1st gear a tad too long, and 2nd comes on strong then settles out somewhat and is fairly consistent as the speed increases at the same rate per 10 mph - around 5 mph. I am also shifting into 4th near the end of the run but 3rd is really tapped out so there is no gain to keep it going a bit longer (my calculations indicate I'm pulling around 3,700 rpm by 55 mph or so).
I'm anxious to get that turbo re-installed. That could dramatically change the acceleration characteristics. I May get some boost at the end of 1st gear, but will be pulling it for sure in second and the rest.
Mark Pietz
Member
Shifting gears here, so to speak. Following up on the engine oil/coolant heat exchanger...so I researched the Ford units...none at picnpull. Someone came through and harvested the nice little tidbits such as the turbos, etc. So I'm walking out and at the entrance there are two 90-ish volvo 740 turbos, a '91 and '95. Volvo cooled the oil two ways on these. '95s used an adaptor and that canister-type thing that accepts coolant from heater hoses, and a fram ph16 type (Ford) filter goes on the end of it (ph8a is same but longer). The '91s used the same adaptor and a canister-type thing that looks almost identical, but routes oil to hard lines forward to the traditional little radiator. Not certain as to the year breaks. Anyway, I scored the type we've been talking about here. Here are some pics of it. Now here's what I thinking...to use the canister, I'd have to buy a remote filter adaptor and screw it to that and mount it, then run hoses to my custom adaptor that replaces the regular filter adaptor. Or! I can cast a new, thinner adaptor that will bolt to the block and also have a circular section to accept the volvo adaptor. This should clear the front left motor mount and allow some clocking. This is not unlike the posts over on bp concerning the IH oem oil/coolant exchanger for the svs used in combines and hd applications. Except mine should clear the side mount. What do you think about that? I'm itching to do some casting, now that the weather is nicer. Also, how much heat should one of these things remove from the oil temps?
Robert,
Robert,