Infrared pics of my 345

[ronmc1954]

I got the infrared camera out today and shot a couple fo shots of my 345 after an hours drive. Thought you might find them interesting. If you look at the first pic you see a 311* marked on the intake it is the hottest spot on the intake I am guessing but could I have a burnt valve?
Heres the pics.

Omg is it!!! Yes it is it's a nebraska chupacabra

 

[Scoutboy74]

Cool pics ron! All but the very last one, which has to be the most frightening and disturbing thing I've seen in my life. Now I'm going to have nightmares. Thanks pal...thanks a lot.

 

[Greg R]

That's waaay cool stuff. I wonder if you could do full face radiator shot, kinda see the temp differences.

 

[Eric VanBuren]

Those pics are way cool, er I mean hot! The hot spot on your intake appears to be the exhaust crossover in the second shot. The first pic is too hard to tell what the hot spot is. That could be a very useful tool for cooling system diagnosis, makes a ir thermometer look like a child's toy. I want one!! No I need one!!

Since that probably won't be happening anytime soon, I second greg's request for a full frontal shot maybe one while still running and then some 1, 2, 3, minutes after shut down. Seeing the heat soak on the intake after shut down would also be cool, I mean hot.

 

[ronmc1954]

I will be on the road for a couple of days using the camera at other company locations but I will see if I can get some more shots. Eric these pics are with the motor running that intake hot spot is above cyl 5 which is one the spark plug was stripped out by the po it actually fell out once when I was driving. I have fixed the threads with an insert but it May have caused some other damage. The motor seems to run just fine lots of power and I thought I would blow the cobs out last night and I backed off when it got to 90mph but the girl still wanted to go faster.
Notice I do not have a shroud but as far as temp it never over heats but thats mostly road driving not off road.

 

[Craig]

Cool

for the lasy people like me heres the pic's

 

[ronmc1954]

Thanks Craig, I was kinda lazy last night.

from the pics you can see I have got a 13.6* difference from inlet to outlet of the radiator. This is what I would call a typical radiator with no shroud and who knows if any thing has been done to it. This is at idle, and an 80* outside temp, so do the experts think this is good or bad?
I am still curious about the 230.9* temp on the intake manifold (pic 2,craigs post), eric said something about an exhaust crossover, it's been years since I rebuilt a 345 but I don't recall exhaust in the intake manifold. This spot is between the valve cover and carb. Any other opinions or is my suspicion of a burnt valve possible?
Ron

 

[Greg R]

13 degrees is good, very good.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Obviously you flatlanders in lower yankeeland don't know a chupee fromma dam sheep dude!

Chupees don't got no "temperature", they are neutral and reflect microwaves and laser beams too!

Takes much in tha way of oak and alder in tha smoker to git a chupee up to an internal temp of about 195f and that's only if ya skin 'em first. A chupee stays on tha smoker for at least 18 hours.

Now sheep...them thangs iz h.o.t.! Specialy when they get all dressed up onna satidy nite and live in montana.

 

[Craig]

edit..

I am still curious about the 230.9* temp on the intake manifold (pic 2,craigs post), eric said something about an exhaust crossover, it's been years since I rebuilt a 345 but I don't recall exhaust in the intake manifold. This spot is between the valve cover and carb. Any other opinions or is my suspicion of a burnt valve possible?
Ron

Here what the insides look like, why it's there? I don't know

 

[Michael Mayben]

The water jackets in them heads are trash dude!

The exhaust crossover goes back many years in deetroit iron. Worked in conjunction witha "heat riser" valve (flapperthingee).

Later on became more important with all that deetroit and IH emissions workaround shit. Onna sv, that's a prime location for a vacuum leak and all kindsa issues regarding bringing old motors to life.

That's why on motors that ya are tryin' to make "perform", ya use intake gaskets that block those crossovers. That is exactly what is used on motors runnin' lpg (propane) in the case of IH crap. Makes no difference in engine warmup if all engine systems are tuned for heat crossover elimination! Why heat the intake charge when you really are going for max charge density???

 

[ronmc1954]

Thanks michael and Craig, that explains alot. Michael I hope you did not get that pic from your wallet

oh by the way! I will have you know I grew up next to a hill. Lol flatlander indeed!

 

[Eric VanBuren]

The exhaust crossover goes back many years in deetroit iron. Worked in conjunction witha "heat riser" valve (flapperthingee).

Later on became more important with all that deetroit and IH emissions workaround shit. Onna sv, that's a prime location for a vacuum leak and all kindsa issues regarding bringing old motors to life.

Makes no difference in engine warmup if all engine systems are tuned for heat crossover elimination!

I have to call bs the exhaust crossover is a sealed passage through the intake, a leak at the manifold to head interface will result in an exhaust leak from that joint not a vacuum leak. Now on some old school 4 and 6cyls where the top of the exhaust manifold forms the floor of the intake then you can get a vacuum leak when the gasket fails. On the amc 6 cyl used in IH apps the intake forms the top of the exhaust manifold so it will cause an exhaust leak when the gasket between the two fail.

While you are correct that it makes no difference in warm up time it does make a shit load of difference in the driveablity if you don't live some place like the balmy wilds of orygone. Say you live in big sky country, nodak or the great white north, and it's 40 below, then you need that crossover to prevent extreeeme driveabilty problems.

In cold weather the fuel will tend to drop out of suspension where it has to take a turn, the ridged intake bottom helps to hold the fuel there while the exhaust heat evaporates it. That is what we are after fuel vapor, cuz it will burn, while the liquid stuff won't. Even once the engine is up to operating temp the heated intake floor is required. Even if the fuel is atomized when it leaves the venturi, by the time it hits the throttle plate the sub zero air it has condensed and will just drip off the plate to the floor of the intake. Now 6 mos later when its 110 degrees it does hurt performance by heating the intake charge but that's what the oe needs to do design for a car that will run acceptably anywhere, any season.

Ron, the crossover is easy to pic out from the intake and coolant passages, it's the little rusty, pitted one with no signs of paint, since it exhaust travels through it. Even w/o a heat riser the timing of the pulses between the banks means some exhaust will flow back and forth as the pressure in the connected ports varies.

 

[Michael Mayben]

So I'll call bullshit on your bs eric, evidently you haven't diagnosed many of these stock motors with intake gaskets that have disappeared around the crossover and penetrated the intake port seal. Basically it's the same thing as a permanent actuation of egr. But I will allow...it'sa mofo to actually diagnose an exhaust leak and vacuum leak simultaneously with the motor runnin'.

And you dam shore don't know anything about the actual functionality of the rpt intake manifold on my engine!

And the engine as I run it starts far quicker than any efi system at temps <-17*f with an inch of ice covering the rig along with abouta foot of snow. That was this past January. And it absolutely loves 117*f ambient, though it hasn't been on the vegas strip since I swapped the intake under those conditions, it was only 97f at radiator intake level when I was there this past February pulling a trailer. Normal ambient temps at grille height on the strip in mid-August at 2pm will be between 155*f and 185*f observed temps with two calibrated lab-quality digimometers.

How the hell could you possibly know what/where the conditions this rig or any other than your own operate under at any point in time??? You think I never leave tha hood (where sub-zero is just a few miles away in normal winter conditions)? Generalizations regarding "climate" and "operating conditions", "engine configuration" certainly indicate a limited knowledge of the real world of old iron.

Book theory and epa/smog-skool is one thing, real world is something else entirely. I do know bookbs...I taught automotive technology for 14 years at the post-secondary level...when these vehicles we beat on constantly were new.

Guess that's why IH decided that a "heated intake" on the four bangers ain't such a good thang afterall??

 

[Greg R]

I've driven with and without functioning/repaired crossovers; or carb heaters like in the '60 f100. I gotta say I liked it better when they worked, especially on them 37 deg. "tule type" fog mornings we occasionally get here in the valley.

So,

all engine systems are tuned for heat crossover elimination!

How do I go about doing that? I'd like to get more stock performance, considering the 87 octane/alcohol, if I can do without them. Maybe this would be better in another forum.

 

[Eric VanBuren]

so I'll call bullshit on your bs eric, evidently you haven't diagnosed many of these stock motors with intake gaskets that have disappeared around the crossover and penetrated the intake port seal. Basically it's the same thing as a permanent actuation of egr. But I will allow...it'sa mofo to actually diagnose an exhaust leak and vacuum leak simultaneously with the motor runnin'.

I'll give you that in extreme cases of intake manifold gasket degradation a leak can develop between the crossover port and an intake port, but usually the exhaust leak will have developed well before, since there is a shorter pathway to the top or bottom of the manifold, and since those edges are exposed to weather it can deteriorate from both sides. And I'm talking from 25 years of professional wrenching, from a's to z's, metro to metro to metro's. F-series to s-series. So I've dealt w/diagnosing a exhaust to intake leak, though most cases I have seen were on the old 6cyls, and those were often due to someone previous that did not follow proper procedure of torquing the manifold to head bolts before torquing the manifold to manifold bolts, or did not use the proper hardware to span the 2 manifolds.

Most of my learning came from figuring it out myself with a healthy dose of working for/with old timers who'd been doing it for 30-40 years when I was just a pup starting out. Most of the time they would make me try to figure it out on my own. Tell me the customer complaint and to go figure out the problem, and report back my diagnosis before turning a wrench. Then they would ask me why I thought that was the problem what tests I did to verify the problem, and then either say you're probably right, or yeah it could be that but what about x?, or just, you're all wrong kid try some more. Tossing parts at a problem was never an option even back in the day when the diagnosis tree came to the dreaded "replace with known good unit". If it ever came to that, it was diagnosis every which way around the problem and rule out everything else first. Thankfully repair information and technology has progressed to the point where all those branches have been pruned from the fsm diagnosis trees.

Fact: most us carb'ed engines used a crossover or exhaust heated intake of some sort at one point, going back to the model t.
Fact: crossover or other form of heated intake was present at the release of those engines.
Fact: said engines were designed well before emissions controls were ever even thought of.
Fact: the oe's included a crossover for a reason.
Fact: the reason was to improve cold weather driveabilty.

how the hell could you possibly know what/where the conditions this rig or any other than your own operate under at any point in time???

My point exactly.