Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Let's use this thread to discuss anything related to the Holley 22xx series carbs (2210, 2210c, 2245, etc.) that were oem on IH products back in the day.
Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff
- Thread starter Michael Mayben
- Start date
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
The Holley 22xx series carbs will carry both the IH part number and the Holley "list" number stamped into the flat surface on the passenger side of the main body fuel bowl. Any number cast into the part, is not a list number, but is a part number for that particular part.
This carb is a 2210 with an evaporative emissions system bowl vent, 1975 304/345 pickup with any transmission.
This carb is a 2210 with an evaporative emissions system bowl vent, 1975 304/345 pickup with any transmission.
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Here's most (not all) of the current Holley 2210/2210c collection we have on hand. A few are complete enough to consider a second look into determining if any are suitable for reconditioning. Two came from running vehicles (very poorly running I might add) which received a centerhung Holley 2300 (list 0-7448) conversion.
A few are actually for the amc 401 engine used in '73>'75 travelalls, one is for an mv 404 out of a medium duty truck app.
One is a new chrysler 360/400 version which will be converted to an ihc application for use on any sii which might need to have an original carb setup installed for "smog" purposes. With the exception of the actual Holley list number being inaccurate, that carb will be identical to a new ihc app and will install just as a new ihc-sourced item with all vacuum ports/peripherals in place. Of course...availability of a new Holley 2210/2210c for any ihc app ended about 20 years ago!
Anyone interested in a reconditioned 2210/2210c should contact Jeff at ihon regarding availability of reconditioned mixers...right now, we have no 2245 cores, however...that item was prolly only used by IH in "some" '78>'79 sii apps and is not a very common item.
We also have many core parts for these carbs which might be of interest to some folks. But beware...there are two distinct versions of the 2210/2210c used by ihc....main difference is in the bowl vent location/actuation and the highly-problematic "power valve actuator" system.
A few are actually for the amc 401 engine used in '73>'75 travelalls, one is for an mv 404 out of a medium duty truck app.
One is a new chrysler 360/400 version which will be converted to an ihc application for use on any sii which might need to have an original carb setup installed for "smog" purposes. With the exception of the actual Holley list number being inaccurate, that carb will be identical to a new ihc app and will install just as a new ihc-sourced item with all vacuum ports/peripherals in place. Of course...availability of a new Holley 2210/2210c for any ihc app ended about 20 years ago!
Anyone interested in a reconditioned 2210/2210c should contact Jeff at ihon regarding availability of reconditioned mixers...right now, we have no 2245 cores, however...that item was prolly only used by IH in "some" '78>'79 sii apps and is not a very common item.
We also have many core parts for these carbs which might be of interest to some folks. But beware...there are two distinct versions of the 2210/2210c used by ihc....main difference is in the bowl vent location/actuation and the highly-problematic "power valve actuator" system.
Attachments
Last edited:
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Thanks to david fulford in indiana, we now have a 2245 to use for a side-by-side comparative analysis for proper carb identification. This carb came from david's rig way back when which was converted to a 2300 centerhung (list 0-7448) with electric choke. This carb core has several issues which I'm sure david was unaware of, but now he'll find out the rest of the story!!
Throughout this series, the 2210 carb/parts will always be on the left hand side of the pic, the 2245 stuff will be on the right hand side. And...any anti-diesel solenoid and/or dashpot mounted to each carb have been previously removed for clarity.
First off, a shot of both carbs side-by-side, top view. The 2210 has a throttle lever-operated bowl vent, the 2245 does not.
Also notice the "tower" in the center of each carb, the 2210 has no external penetration to the vacuum chamber for the power valve actuator. The 2245 does have a penetration in it's tower, which is "plugged" at the point of manufacture.
Throughout this series, the 2210 carb/parts will always be on the left hand side of the pic, the 2245 stuff will be on the right hand side. And...any anti-diesel solenoid and/or dashpot mounted to each carb have been previously removed for clarity.
First off, a shot of both carbs side-by-side, top view. The 2210 has a throttle lever-operated bowl vent, the 2245 does not.
Also notice the "tower" in the center of each carb, the 2210 has no external penetration to the vacuum chamber for the power valve actuator. The 2245 does have a penetration in it's tower, which is "plugged" at the point of manufacture.
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Here's a front view of both mixers. 2210 is a previous commercial "reman". How do I know? The ihc part number and Holley list number have been obliterated by media blasting. Very common commercial practice and is not the way to "clean" a carburetor! If the stamped numbers have been blasted off, just think what has happened to the critical surfaces and passages!! Typical practice of "champion" brand remans.
I do know the history of this carb/vehicle. I did a Holley 2300 centerhung conversion on the rig last fall. It has been problematic for several years.
I do know the history of this carb/vehicle. I did a Holley 2300 centerhung conversion on the rig last fall. It has been problematic for several years.
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
And here's the passenger side view.
Note that the throttle shaft penetration in the 2210 throttle body has been plugged with black rtv, that's a dumazz thing to do!
And...look close, the "ported" vacuum source nipple for the 2245 has been plugged internally with red rtv!!! How tha hail can the distributor advance operate if it sees no vacuum signal???
Also, the vacuum choke break has been jury-rigged with a piece of wire as a replacement for the oem link.
Note that the throttle shaft penetration in the 2210 throttle body has been plugged with black rtv, that's a dumazz thing to do!
And...look close, the "ported" vacuum source nipple for the 2245 has been plugged internally with red rtv!!! How tha hail can the distributor advance operate if it sees no vacuum signal???
Also, the vacuum choke break has been jury-rigged with a piece of wire as a replacement for the oem link.
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Here's the rear view.
The 2210 is equipped with a hot idle compensator valve located under that rectangular steel cover retained by two screws. Under the cover is a bi-metal thermostatic control which senses main body temperature (indicator of underhood temperature) and serves to provide a calibrated "vacuum leak" under certain conditions, part of the "smog" add-ons for this carb series and is not used in all variations.
The 2245 has provisions in the main body casting for the hic valve but has not been completely machined and does not use an hic system.
The 2210 is equipped with a hot idle compensator valve located under that rectangular steel cover retained by two screws. Under the cover is a bi-metal thermostatic control which senses main body temperature (indicator of underhood temperature) and serves to provide a calibrated "vacuum leak" under certain conditions, part of the "smog" add-ons for this carb series and is not used in all variations.
The 2245 has provisions in the main body casting for the hic valve but has not been completely machined and does not use an hic system.
Attachments
Last edited:
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Here's a shot of the throttle body removed from the main body. Can ya spot the same issue which is root cause failure for both of these carbs???
The gasket between the two components is actually a heat insulator. That is a design used to reduce "fuel percolation" in applications of this carb on various smog motor applications (both for ihc and all other oem apps).
In the case of the 2210, the wrong gasket was installed (remember this is a commercial "reman" carb?), the "ported" vacuum port for the distributor advance is open to the atmosphere because there is no gasket coverage on that area!!! That means a major vacuum leak is introduced when the throttle plates are in "tip-in" angle and after. Probably not a vacuum leak at idle depending upon idle speed. And of course, this would result inna no vacuum signal to the vacuum advance can on the distributor control circuit.
On the 2245, the same issue is present. However, someone plugged the vacuum port with red rtv!
Once again, folks that should not be attempting to work on carbs have screwed up perfectly good mixers. This is typical of folks that post ..."I rebuilt the carb but it's still screwed up"! This is totally inexcusable in the case of the "commercial" reman 2210 carb, but I see issues like this quite often.
The gasket between the two components is actually a heat insulator. That is a design used to reduce "fuel percolation" in applications of this carb on various smog motor applications (both for ihc and all other oem apps).
In the case of the 2210, the wrong gasket was installed (remember this is a commercial "reman" carb?), the "ported" vacuum port for the distributor advance is open to the atmosphere because there is no gasket coverage on that area!!! That means a major vacuum leak is introduced when the throttle plates are in "tip-in" angle and after. Probably not a vacuum leak at idle depending upon idle speed. And of course, this would result inna no vacuum signal to the vacuum advance can on the distributor control circuit.
On the 2245, the same issue is present. However, someone plugged the vacuum port with red rtv!
Once again, folks that should not be attempting to work on carbs have screwed up perfectly good mixers. This is typical of folks that post ..."I rebuilt the carb but it's still screwed up"! This is totally inexcusable in the case of the "commercial" reman 2210 carb, but I see issues like this quite often.
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Another shot of the incorrect heat insulator gaskets with partial removal. This pinpoints the area of failure.
These gaskets are actually accurately located when installed through the use of two very small roll pins inserted into the throttle body, that keeps the gasket properly aligned during carb assembly.
There are several variations of both these carbs used on oem apps other than ihc. In those cases, the throttle bodies all have a different mounting flange/bolt pattern arrangement. Some of those apps do not use a ported vacuum source on the throttle body.
Many of the commercial carb overhaul "kits" contain only one gasket (the incorrect one for IH app). Currently, I use the hygrade p/n 928c kit for these carbs because it contains new power valves of either configuration (more on this coming up). But occasionally, that kit does not contain both gaskets (packaging quality issue), I have one of those on hand now. The wells ck 540a kit always has all correct parts, but can be a problem for some folks to source locally. The Holley-supply kits for this app do not contain replacement power valves (either type) which makes those kits useless in my book.
These gaskets are actually accurately located when installed through the use of two very small roll pins inserted into the throttle body, that keeps the gasket properly aligned during carb assembly.
There are several variations of both these carbs used on oem apps other than ihc. In those cases, the throttle bodies all have a different mounting flange/bolt pattern arrangement. Some of those apps do not use a ported vacuum source on the throttle body.
Many of the commercial carb overhaul "kits" contain only one gasket (the incorrect one for IH app). Currently, I use the hygrade p/n 928c kit for these carbs because it contains new power valves of either configuration (more on this coming up). But occasionally, that kit does not contain both gaskets (packaging quality issue), I have one of those on hand now. The wells ck 540a kit always has all correct parts, but can be a problem for some folks to source locally. The Holley-supply kits for this app do not contain replacement power valves (either type) which makes those kits useless in my book.
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Here's a direct comparison of the heat dam gaskets, both variations, the left hand and center gaskets are wrong for the ihc-app 2210/2245 carbs, there is no seal created for the "ported" vacuum source.
The gasket on the right is from another 2210 teardown, it is correct, notice the protrusion of the gasket which seals the ported vacuum port.
Other than that single point of reference, all the gaskets are identical. If you are gonna play with these carbs, you must pay attention to this detail!
The gasket on the right is from another 2210 teardown, it is correct, notice the protrusion of the gasket which seals the ported vacuum port.
Other than that single point of reference, all the gaskets are identical. If you are gonna play with these carbs, you must pay attention to this detail!
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Now we have the bowl covers removed. Ya can see that the power valve actuation systems between the two models are completely different in design. The actuators are the items between the two brass tubes sticking out of the tops.
This actuator is the most problematic area of these carbs, and a major reason I refer to 'em as "throwaway" those items are not replaceable (no service parts are available new) and the bore in the top can be heavily corroded and unusable.
The 2210 uses a "two stage" power valve actuation system, it's either closed, partially open, or fully open depending upon manifold vacuum level.
The 2245 uses a more advanced, "gradient" power valve system, this circuit is variable over a wide range of manifold vacuum levels.
The components seen in this shot are the power valve actuators...not the actual power valve components themselves.
This actuator is the most problematic area of these carbs, and a major reason I refer to 'em as "throwaway" those items are not replaceable (no service parts are available new) and the bore in the top can be heavily corroded and unusable.
The 2210 uses a "two stage" power valve actuation system, it's either closed, partially open, or fully open depending upon manifold vacuum level.
The 2245 uses a more advanced, "gradient" power valve system, this circuit is variable over a wide range of manifold vacuum levels.
The components seen in this shot are the power valve actuators...not the actual power valve components themselves.
Attachments
Last edited:
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Ok, we're gettin' close to the end here!
Now let's look at the actual power valves themselves. Some references refer to these devices as "economizer" valves also, a carryover from the early model of various Holley mixers. So the term "power valve" and "economizer" can be used interchangeably.
The two stage power valve in the 2210 is short and squat, and is mounted between the two separate main jets (one jet for each venturi). The power valve system feeds both venturis equally.
The gradient-type power valve for the 2245 is mounted in the same position, but is taller in size to accommodate the tapered valve stem and it's balance spring.
The main body below the power valve seat is machined to accept only each type of power valve, they will not interchange from 2210 to 2245 and visa-versa.
Now let's look at the actual power valves themselves. Some references refer to these devices as "economizer" valves also, a carryover from the early model of various Holley mixers. So the term "power valve" and "economizer" can be used interchangeably.
The two stage power valve in the 2210 is short and squat, and is mounted between the two separate main jets (one jet for each venturi). The power valve system feeds both venturis equally.
The gradient-type power valve for the 2245 is mounted in the same position, but is taller in size to accommodate the tapered valve stem and it's balance spring.
The main body below the power valve seat is machined to accept only each type of power valve, they will not interchange from 2210 to 2245 and visa-versa.
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Here we see each of the power valves in detail.
The 2210 valve is a "capsule" design and cannot be disassembled for service, only replaced.
The 2245 power valve is a multi-piece assembly, which has to be carefully assembled and then installed in the power valve well.
The area below the power valve in both carb bodies is a trash receptacle!!! Special attention must be paid to this area to remove any debris, varnish, or corrosion which is normally present .
The 2210 valve is a "capsule" design and cannot be disassembled for service, only replaced.
The 2245 power valve is a multi-piece assembly, which has to be carefully assembled and then installed in the power valve well.
The area below the power valve in both carb bodies is a trash receptacle!!! Special attention must be paid to this area to remove any debris, varnish, or corrosion which is normally present .
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Here's the hot idle compensator system after removal from the main body on the 2210.
The bi-metal element must be sealed to the main body hic port with a cork gasket.
The 2245 main body has the boss for the hic but is not machined through for operation. If it was, then a major vacuum leak would be present.
I see 2210 carbs fairly often where the hic has been removed for whatever reason and the cover simply replaced. That will not seal the passageways! Result is a major vacuum leak in the carb...again...typical of the "I overhauled the carb but it's still junk" syndrome!
The bi-metal element must be sealed to the main body hic port with a cork gasket.
The 2245 main body has the boss for the hic but is not machined through for operation. If it was, then a major vacuum leak would be present.
I see 2210 carbs fairly often where the hic has been removed for whatever reason and the cover simply replaced. That will not seal the passageways! Result is a major vacuum leak in the carb...again...typical of the "I overhauled the carb but it's still junk" syndrome!
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Here we see the fast idle cams. These are manufactured from a nylon material and are fairly durable (we're talking lasting nearly 30 years here!). That said, it is possible for them to become damaged/broken, mainly from being exposed to sunlight such as when these carb cores are left exposed to the elements in boneyards!
The color of the cam denotes it's oem application.
The main differences you May see in this shot is the number of "steps" in the cams. These steps control the progressive drop in fast idle speed as the engine warms up and the choke gradually opens along a highly engineered, pre-determined curve. Remember, these carbs were developed with one over-riding objective...meeting smog numbers!
The 2210 cam has six "steps" in fast idle calibration. The 2245 cam uses five steps.
The color of the cam denotes it's oem application.
The main differences you May see in this shot is the number of "steps" in the cams. These steps control the progressive drop in fast idle speed as the engine warms up and the choke gradually opens along a highly engineered, pre-determined curve. Remember, these carbs were developed with one over-riding objective...meeting smog numbers!
The 2210 cam has six "steps" in fast idle calibration. The 2245 cam uses five steps.
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Here's a comparison of the back side of the fast idle cams.
Virtually identical except for the number of fast idle "steps"???
Wrong!
The "stop" on each cam is in a significantly different position on each. That's is the pin-like projection molded into the cam body.
This is not readily apparent when looking at the two cams side-by-side. However, when they are each mounted on their respective bodies, the difference is easily seen.
If ya mixed up the cams, or used the "wrong" cam on the body, then the fast idle "curve" will be really screwed up. In fact, it will be real difficult to even achieve a steady curb idle speed once the engine is fully warmed and the choke has pulled off.
Virtually identical except for the number of fast idle "steps"???
Wrong!
The "stop" on each cam is in a significantly different position on each. That's is the pin-like projection molded into the cam body.
This is not readily apparent when looking at the two cams side-by-side. However, when they are each mounted on their respective bodies, the difference is easily seen.
If ya mixed up the cams, or used the "wrong" cam on the body, then the fast idle "curve" will be really screwed up. In fact, it will be real difficult to even achieve a steady curb idle speed once the engine is fully warmed and the choke has pulled off.
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Ok, one last item in this sequence!
The 2210 carb uses a throttle lever activated "bowl vent", a component of the evaporative emissions system.
The 2245 carb is vented through a separate fitting that does not involve a throttle-controlled valve, the location of the fitting will vary with oem/engine application.
The 2210 carb uses a throttle lever activated "bowl vent", a component of the evaporative emissions system.
The 2245 carb is vented through a separate fitting that does not involve a throttle-controlled valve, the location of the fitting will vary with oem/engine application.
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
For definitive repair/overhaul information and an in-depth description of the various carburetor circuits regarding the 22xx Holley mixer series, I'd highly recommend obtaining a copy of the following publication:
"holly service guide no. 1", holly p/n 36-70.
This publication is the primary Holley service publication for the 1920, 1940, 1945, 2210, 2245, 5200, and 5210 carburetors. It May be ordered directly from the Holley website and with shipping will cost under $7.50!
Holley performance carburetors, fuel injection, and fuel pumps
"holly service guide no. 1", holly p/n 36-70.
This publication is the primary Holley service publication for the 1920, 1940, 1945, 2210, 2245, 5200, and 5210 carburetors. It May be ordered directly from the Holley website and with shipping will cost under $7.50!
Holley performance carburetors, fuel injection, and fuel pumps
ronmc1954
Member
Great post michael!!! I just bought a kit for my 2210, mine is slightly different than the one you pictured. Mine does not have the lever operated bowl vent but I do have the hic port. The number is a r7309 a so it should be a 2210. Anyway your post will be read over and over until I get time to rebuild mine.
Thanks for your time and sharing your knowledge.
Ron
Thanks for your time and sharing your knowledge.
Ron
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Thank you ron!
Your Holley list 7309a should also carry an IH p/n on it above the list number of 465663-c91. This is actually a 2210c series carb. Shows to be oem on '74>'75 304, all platform applications, all transmissions.
Post the rebuild kit part number and brand, maybe I can verify that you have all parts needed in that kit! If not, then I May have some extra stuff in the stash you might need!
Most of the time, I'm now having to buy two different kits locally in order to come up with all parts needed for a correct 22xx build...bummer! I have located an outstanding Holley parts source (old time speed shop in salem, or) who most likely has everything in bulk form that is needed, I'll visit him on aug. 7 with a shopping list and see what he can supply for the 22xx series!
Unfortunately, it's a major pita to drill down deep into the list number sequences and determine exactly how any one unit was supplied on which engine/platform due to all the "emissions" variations running rampant back at that point in time. Many "CA-spec" vehicles were also sold into 49 states markets, and 49 state vehicles were sold into California and either not outfitted to CA-spec and simply paid a major tax/"penalty" for doing so, or were converted to CA-spec with a dealer-install conversion. So 35+ years later, there is no telling what ya May actually have! But that really doesn't matter as long as ya can identify correctly which system ya have when trying to find parts!
Between tech information that ihon has on file, and my collection of related technical information, we can usually do a pretty good job of identifying any Holley product, though it May take some trial and error to home in due to all the workarounds performed over the years. Just like on axles as we previously discussed!
Your Holley list 7309a should also carry an IH p/n on it above the list number of 465663-c91. This is actually a 2210c series carb. Shows to be oem on '74>'75 304, all platform applications, all transmissions.
Post the rebuild kit part number and brand, maybe I can verify that you have all parts needed in that kit! If not, then I May have some extra stuff in the stash you might need!
Most of the time, I'm now having to buy two different kits locally in order to come up with all parts needed for a correct 22xx build...bummer! I have located an outstanding Holley parts source (old time speed shop in salem, or) who most likely has everything in bulk form that is needed, I'll visit him on aug. 7 with a shopping list and see what he can supply for the 22xx series!
Unfortunately, it's a major pita to drill down deep into the list number sequences and determine exactly how any one unit was supplied on which engine/platform due to all the "emissions" variations running rampant back at that point in time. Many "CA-spec" vehicles were also sold into 49 states markets, and 49 state vehicles were sold into California and either not outfitted to CA-spec and simply paid a major tax/"penalty" for doing so, or were converted to CA-spec with a dealer-install conversion. So 35+ years later, there is no telling what ya May actually have! But that really doesn't matter as long as ya can identify correctly which system ya have when trying to find parts!
Between tech information that ihon has on file, and my collection of related technical information, we can usually do a pretty good job of identifying any Holley product, though it May take some trial and error to home in due to all the workarounds performed over the years. Just like on axles as we previously discussed!
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
The hygrade 929a number is a new one for me ron! That May be the secret ingredient if it has the correct main body-to-throttle body gasket and the correct power valve!
The hygrade 928c kits I use in order to get both power valves, does not have the correct main body gasket/heat insulator. The primary app for that kit is a 70's 360/400 chrysler.
Pay close attention to your gaskets as outlined above!
If the existing main body gasket shows no signs of deterioration, torn lamination, or distortion, then it May be re-used if necessary. Not the best practice by any means...but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do!
Keep us up to speed on what ya find to add to the knowledge base here!
The hygrade 928c kits I use in order to get both power valves, does not have the correct main body gasket/heat insulator. The primary app for that kit is a 70's 360/400 chrysler.
Pay close attention to your gaskets as outlined above!
If the existing main body gasket shows no signs of deterioration, torn lamination, or distortion, then it May be re-used if necessary. Not the best practice by any means...but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do!
Keep us up to speed on what ya find to add to the knowledge base here!