Factory Specs

[Dealbreaker74]

It's really a shame how crappy these v8s were tuned leaving the factory. I have finally got my project up and running and despite a couple issues (oil out the dipstick is still a minor one that mayben and rk are helping with), it runs really nice. But that's at 10 degrees initial. Bring it down to zero btdc, and now its a can of worms. Yet that's what the book says it has to be to pass smog. It barely runs like that. The idle is low, but if you crack it open too far, you have now activated the egr. So now what? Open up the idle mixture screws to get the speed back up? No, because that just richens up an already slow stumbling idle.

It just chaps my ass that we can't actually tune the thing to pass a sniff check. Emissions are better, performance is better and fuel mileage is better when you tune it where it wants to be, rather than where you're told it should be. And its not that I'm anti-emissions; I want clean air as much as the next person. The air pump and cats are not the problem. Its the a-hole bureaucrats who make these cheese dick laws. A sniff check should be all it takes to get by. I am at a loss to understand the logic.

Anyone have any bright ideas how to get the thing to idle at 0 btdc without winding the idle speed screw to 1/4 throttle?

 

[Scoutboy74]

None of this is the fault of IH. You need to focus the blame where it belongs...at the gummint, both federal and most especially where you live, state level. These rigs ran just as well from the factory as any similar vehicle from that era. All the parts were new. There was no such thing as the oxygenated e10 crap gas that's being force fed to us at a tremendous price today. Driveability really began to suffer with the ever increasing emissions requirements which brought about that throwaway Holley 2210 carb found on so many of these engines. All the automakers were affected by these mandates.
Also, that base timing factor of 0 btdc is meant for these engines in medium to heavy duty platforms, moving heavy loads with sustained rpm at or near maximum recommended speed for long durations as a means of avoiding detonation. It is a widely accepted fact that in light duty vehicles, these engines benefit greatly from a base timing advance in the neighborhood of 10 degrees.
Furthermore, who says you have to set your timing at 0 degrees? Are the smog nazis that nosey in kalifornikate that they're going to connect a timing light to your engine to see what the base timing is set to? I highly doubt it. The fumb duckers don't even know enough to time the damn thing off #8! Set it to where it's happy.

 

[Dealbreaker74]

Yeah, I get the reasoning behind the 0 deg thing, just too bad it took until 1980 before IH figured out the svs ran much better at 10 btdc. Because yes, the smog test does include checking the damned timing to verify that it is indeed 0 btdc. That's what the core of the problem is. Like the visual inspection to verify all the proper bits are in place, the timing is verified and the egr is tested for functionality. Best to bring your own ky to this party.

I'm nearly there, just trying to keep the idle where it needs to be. Any help is appreciated.

 

[Scoutboy74]

it's even worse than I thought. If you were making a movie thirty years ago about the way things are in this country right now, not even the most creative thinker could script half the shit that is already reality. Unbelievable.

 

[Dealbreaker74]

The crap part of the story isn't that we get tested, its the rigid, closed minded thinking that went into the test. Give us something we can f'ing work with. If the thing comes in under "x" amount of pollutants, then rock on. However you got there is your business. The test will still weed out the "gross polluters," so what's the big deal???

 

[Michael Mayben]

I'm not gonna git into all this nannystate shit, scoutboy gits lectured on that subject onna regular basis when he and jerry bunk at binder u.!

All I can say is...the absolute low point in the domestic auto industry began with the introduction of the model year 1973 "light duty" vehicles and continued through the end of model year 1977. This was the time when the first fabricated fuel crisis was thrust upon us, the feds took over the automotive industry the first time, and the japanese assault ramped up to take advantage of both!

Kinda falls right into that timeframe regarding the Scout II don't it??? Then ya add in fookin' kalifornikate which took nannystatism to it's extreme which continues to this day.

You think drivability suks on the Scout II crap??? Ya shoulda been workin' in the dealership service departments (warranty work) for GM and chrysler polished turds!!!! The IH stuff was outstanding in drivability compared to the rest of the shit deetroit turned out in that era.

The only way to make a customer go away even semi-happy was perform all kinds of "tricks" and manipulations in violation of the emissions regs. But keep in mind, at that point in time we didn't have to contend with the mother computer in sactokalifornikate running the smog show, it was visual and idle only testing with no dam dynos and rocketship shit and there wasn't all that much attention paid to this stuff due to the emerging bureaucratic turf wars between the feds at epa, and all the emerging "air quality districts" in kalifornikate battling it out with carb and all the other alphabet agencynazis that populate the golden state.

And you my man exist right in the middle of the greatest boondoggle known to the motor vehicle industry on the planet, the south coast air quality management district, more affectionately known by socal vehicle repair joints as "squalid".

 

[Dealbreaker74]

Right. For all of you outside so cal, this is our reality. They even take the fuel cap and hook it to the appropriate fuel cap adapter and check its seal through the machine. If it leaks down beyond what's allowed, you fail. Mind you, the engine hasn't even been started yet. Its crazy.

But still, my biggest gripe is that no one in detroit could figure out how to put a decent tune on their shit as it left the plants. Now, people like me who do actually give a crap about clean air are left holding this smelly steaming bag of guano. No one in sacramento gives a rat's ass about the hobby (not just ihs, but hot rodding in general). I seriously think they just want to outlaw private ownership of motor vehicles in general. There's going to be a revolution. Its been brewing for some time. They keep drawing the line closer and closer to our front doors. Its only a matter of time before something snaps and it all comes unraveled (taxes, immigration, forced health care, you name it).

But I digress...without violating your automotive tenents, can you pass along any general info about getting this stupid thing to idle at 0 btdc? I could take it to my local guy and put it on a gas analyzer and have him dick with it, but I'd really rather spend that money on adult beverages before the $6/six-pack tax kicks in (no bs, its actually getting tossed around to bail out the deficit. That and legalizing weed!)

any land for sale in or?

 

[Michael Mayben]

Lottsa land for sale up here dirt cheep thanks to the fuckin' gummint,.

And right now if ya look out yore front winder, you will see them black 'burbans lined up with nannystaters from tsa/scaqmd/fbi/cia/dea/epa/carb and even a hummer holdin' auhnuld with several books of iou vouchers he gives out with autographed pictures of hizownself taken before he turned to shit. They are just waiting for ya to let one dam tire footprint hit the driveway approach and then there is gonna be a turf war to see who gits to impound and crush yore ride first. Them alphabets are monitoring our exchanges in real time since now they know the revolution is being fomented.

What realy pisses me off about this whole dam kalifornikate smogcheck shit is the fact that when these rigs were "current", that dam evaporative emissions system fuel cap test didn't exist and was not part of the deal! That came in with obdii (of course kalifornikate had to enable obdii one year before the rest of the world).

Everyone has a choice regarding where they chose to call their "residence". It's real easy to not make that choice kalifornikate. But do not think about residing in either the "portland" attainment zone or the "medford" attainment zone in orygone, anyplace else is kool and a two year vehicle registration is less than $60 with no dam sales tax! This is the land of old iron since there ain't no dam jobs up here so folks can afford to buy anythang newer than about 1980.

Back to yore sitch.. What ya got going on points to sumthin' broke! While this whole dam emissions tuning crap ain't good, at least the piles will run....yore's don't!

Make sure ya got the primary feed for the egr/distributor vacuum distribution hooked to "ported" vacuum on that quadra. I can't tell ya "which" port that is since there are umpteen jillion versions of those carbs. But using your vacuum gauge you can figger it out. That will be a port that at "idle" shows somewhere between zero and about 3" of vacuum, maybe as much as 5"hg if the idle speed is too high. I have a few quadras now I can look at but they May not be the same location as yours.

In order for that "0*" oem timing spec to be functional, all emissions components must be in place and functional. And verify that the distributor vacuum advance can will actuate and hold vacuum. Using a mityvac, it should begin to "pull" at a signal of about 5"hg and then hold full vacuum indefinitely.

I assume the mixture screws on that quadra have been "modded" (fuck you carb/scaqmd!) to allow adjustment, and then somehow camo'd for smognazi??? If so, then if everythang else is correctamundo regarding ignition, then diddle with them while maintaining spec'd idle speed at base timing and see what happens.

I'm sure if ya hook up with yore neighbor Robert yawl can make it play nice, don't know why I never made that connection for ya before now??

 

[Dealbreaker74]

That thing with Robert and I being so close, it makes you wonder how we never caught that before. Sorta like this carb situation. It must be something stupid I'm overlooking.

The background:
-newly rebuilt 345. .060 over, mild comp cams grind.
-po installed mallory electronic dist. Vac canister checks good.
-late 70's /early 80's quadrajet. Has the proper "bowl vent" like the t-quad. Rebuilt by a very reputable local guy.
-erg is correct for the app and also functional.
-both low temp vacuum switches are functional.
-a.I.r pump connected and working properly.

So with the mixture screws out about 1.25 turns, and the initial timing set to 10 btdc (vac disco'd), the thing runs like a champ. Vacuum is over 20 at idle, throttle response is crisp, no black smoke, no detonation. As far as egr, I have found the right port that shows just a smidge of vac at idle. It feeds the distributor advance. But I had to "t" it because there was no other port to feed the egr. Every other port is constant vacuum, and applies the egr instantly, killing the motor.

Now with the engine at a 650rpm idle, vac gauge shows 2-3 like you thought. Opening the throttle about 1/16th farther off the screw blips the vacuum to 5-6, and starts to crack open the egr. Idle should be up to about 900, but its a little rough (egr too early is my guess. I might "modify" its flow to correct the issue).

So far so good. Except for the slight rumble at 900 rpm, it drives fine. But when the timing is brought down to 0 btdc, the idle obviously drops. So I crank the speed screw up until I get to an acceptable 650-700 rpm. But now I have opened the egr and between the crap timing and the egr polluting the mixture, it idles like ass. I can also begin to smell a Rich exhaust through the cat.

At this point I gave up. Hoping for some inspiration or advice.

My thought is to pull the egr and "limit" its effectiveness. It was a "universal" replacement anyway. The smog guys just want to see it choke the motor when you miteyvac it. So some erg will be good enough egr in my book. But that still leaves me with the idle screw cranked so far open I am into the primary circuit. I know this is not right. The engine "used " to pass inspection and all I ever did was pull out the timing and jack the idle. But I never had to go this far. And its been 6 years since I last drove this thing (it was supposed to be just a head gasket!), plenty has changed no doubt.

Well, that's the story. The job yanks me away for a week starting tomorrow, so if you guys think of something I missed, drop me a note. I'm interested in anything.

And Robert, did you go the the la verne car show today? Pretty nice turn out.

 

[Robert Kenney]

I had my model a there and hung out with my buddies who were in the chile cook off. They won..... Pretty much stood around and drank canned beverages from red plastic cups from noon on.

 

[Dealbreaker74]

Woohoo! Went to the smog police today and we passed. I was sure the emissions would be good, but its all that other crap that gets you. Anyway, I fiddled around with mixture and idle speed and the egr valve (don't ask), and limped it over to the place. When they checked the timing, they said 5 btdc was the factory spec. I knew that wasn't right, and told them it was timed according to my manual at 0 btdc. So he goes in and finds another reference book, and this one gives 7.5 btdc for a 1979 m/y (.5, seriously??). So I told them, we'll have to re-time it because its at zero. So they let me put it to 5 btdc, and we ran the test. No problem.

A new wrinkle is the pressurized "evap" test. This is where they put an adapter cap on the filler neck in place of the normal fuel cap (which gets its own test). Then they pressurize the fuel system to some degree and measure the leak down! I haven't touched the vent hoses that go into the fume manifold in the rear quarter panel. Those hoses are 31 years old. But I guess they're all right, because we got the green light! The tech said this is the part where the majority of pre-1980 vehicles fail. Shocking...

Below is the read out. We came in comfortably under the avg values so I am quite happy. Nox is a little high, but the increase in compression, and the "modified" egr probably plays into that. Btw, this is a q-jet, not the thermoquad, so yes, it can be done. But these guys weren't the brightest bulbs on the tree either...

One less problem to deal with. Now I can start putting some miles on it! Thanks to everyone (mayben, you're awesome) on the forum for the advice and the encouragement. Seeing everyone else's stuff keeps me motivated. I'll post this mess up as soon as I get the rest of it back together!

 

[Dealbreaker74]

So remember all of that bitching I did about the "factory specs" for timing? Well I just discovered the remnants of this sticker on the cowl. From what I see, it looks like some kind of official factory adjustment from 0 deg btdc to 7 1/2 deg. It even gives the official document number. Perhaps senor mayben or another grizzled veteran can look this up for official verification? It would be cool ammo to use at the smog station for those of us who have to deal with such things.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Major freakin' juju happenin' here deal!

Just a month ago, I found the same thing on that rig that sparky (brotherbryce here on ihon) picked up from bill corn down in fairfield!!!! Bill had parked it several years back since he'd put an edlebrock 1406 (spreadbore 345) on it and it wouldn't smog for the visual inspection:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/norcal-scouts/4071-need-someone-look-Scout-me.html

I made up a proper spread bore adapter to use the square bore carb (luckily it had a 1" poly body lift so the hood cleared), rebuilt it, and now it runs perfectly after sitting five years. The rest of the ride under the hood is virgin. Then I found the emissions sticker with that overlay! Sparky (bryce) has the pics, I didn't take any of that as he was gonna post it inna reader's rides thread but hasn't got to it yet. I do have the pics of the carb conversion after it was cleaned up.

The way this worked back then...for every vehicle vin affected by the "campaign" (based upon various qualifying criteria), the selling dealer got one copy of the documentation along with the overlay and instructions to contact the vehicle owner for the "update" for each vehicle delivered by that dealership. This was long before the feds got involved in this kinda shit like we have today. The overlay was supposed to be installed in an exact position over the emissions sticker so that the original timing spec was covered.

Then the documents were placed in the owner's packet typically in the glove box, as proof the campaign had been performed, the vin was checked off on the master list held at ihc service engineering hq, and the appropriate state agency for each campaign vehicle was notified so that the state dbase could be updated. And this was before all this shit was done on pooters so ya know dam well it all fell down the rathole, especially in kalifornikate! Mosta you dam kidz weren't even born in '78>'80 or were swimmin' arount lookin' like a tadpole!

I have spent hours trying to locate a copy of the original service letter that outlined this upgrade. Someone out there has this information in their files. I know that copies exist in the archival information held by binder books. I'll be talking to cyndi (binder books) at the Binder Bee about this on July 16 and put a bug in her ear about finding this information in the files she has.

I do have a few similar items (copies, not originals) regarding '73 and '74 emissions details, stuff that was never included in the service manuals as it should have been in later years.

So...the document we're looking for will be a "service letter", or a "fleet service letter", that is coded..."slf78 (or 79, or 80) and then a sequential number from 1 thru whatever. I bet someone out there has an actual '78/'79/'80 vehicle that has the document in the glove box, but since they don't have to smog in wyoming or wherever "normal" is, then they don't pay any attention to this stuff.

I knew that this had been a campaign based upon what others had told me over the years (with no documentation)...but I've never mentioned it in the forum since I had no proof of this that you could take to the bank (or the smognazi). Ya know how we are about being accurate and correct with information around here. I've also gone through every piece of collected ihc technical information/memorabilia that Jeff has been saving since high school there at the shop, and I've found nothing regarding this specification change.

 

[Dealbreaker74]

Good info, michael. It makes sense that this stuff has never surfaced because most states didn't require the level of compliance my state does. But here's something interesting: when I took the thing down to the gas station, one of the guys looked up the timing in his book. He said it should be 5deg btdc. I asked if he was sure, so he looked in a different book and got the 7.5 deg spec for a '79. Just like the sticker says. So at some point, the document you describe made it into the smog system here in CA.

The guys at the gas station were actually pretty cool. I'm sure they'd let me look at the book. Probably tell me where to get one. Then we could post the specs these guys actually go by. It would make life easier when it comes time for a smog check.