Engine starts while in gear

[Huntergt]

Hello,

I have a 79 Scout 2, with a 304 and a 727 torqueflite . I’m a young guy who is new to Scouts and boy are they fun… except when they are not. My reverse lights would stay on constantly when the key was on or vehicle was running. I removed the neutral safety/reverse light switch and notice the plunger and metal pin were pushed all the way down in the switch. I went and replaced the switch. When removing the switch the reverse lights turned off. With the new switch in hand, I was able to push the plunger down to turn off the lights, then release to allow them on. So it appeared to me the switch worked. However, as soon as I put the switch in the transmission, I can’t get the lights to come on at all. It’s as if when it goes in, the plunger gets pushed closed, which keeps the lights off. I tried two different switches, the one I have currently looks very similar to the original. I’m wondering if I have the wrong switch? Or is there a larger electrical problem? It’s weird that the plunger was all the way down on my original switch and the reverse lights were stuck on? And on the new switch as soon as it goes in and closes the plunger, they stay off? Other things to note, the engine will start when in any gear. This makes me think electrical problems? Worth noting, trailer lights were added and my bulk head connector through the firewall kinda sucks. Any tips or someone to talk to would be great. Thanks

 

[Scoutboy74]

Ok we gotta slow down a little here. I'm going to correct you on some things, not to be a meany, but to help educate you about your Scout. Some of what I'm about to say me seem trivial or nit-picky to you or perhaps others reading through this later, but we need to start from the beginning here and get on the right footing. So here goes. Your transmission is called a Torqueflite A-727. The turn signal switch and the neutral start switch are two totally different and unrelated devices. So we need to separate these issues that you're under the impression are related, but from my perch, seem unrelated. The neutral start or safety switch is threaded into the transmission housing. The turn signal switch is housed in the steering column under the horn button. Its sounds to me like the item you are referring to might actually be the ignition switch, but that's just my guess. With you being so new to Scouts and probably vehicles in general, naturally you're playing catch up from behind when it comes to proper terminology. Nothing wrong with that. It's to be expected. No one was born knowing all there is to know about these rigs. I've been playing with them for over 20 years and I still learn new stuff about them from time to time. That said, pictures are going to be your best friend. Take good pictures of the items in question and post them here so that those of us who've been around awhile can help you identify them. Also, there's no need for you to make multiple posts in multiple sections regarding the same issue. That just causes unnecessary clutter and confusion. One thread per issue in the most appropriate subject heading will do. Don't worry though, I'll take care of the duplicate thread.

 

[Huntergt]

Ok we gotta slow down a little here. I'm going to correct you on some things, not to be a meany, but to help educate you about your Scout. Some of what I'm about to say me seem trivial or nit-picky to you or perhaps others reading through this later, but we need to start from the beginning here and get on the right footing. So here goes. Your transmission is called a Torqueflite A-727. The turn signal switch and the neutral start switch are two totally different and unrelated devices. So we need to separate these issues that you're under the impression are related, but from my perch, seem unrelated. The neutral start or safety switch is threaded into the transmission housing. The turn signal switch is housed in the steering column under the horn button. Its sounds to me like the item you are referring to might actually be the ignition switch, but that's just my guess. With you being so new to Scouts and probably vehicles in general, naturally you're playing catch up from behind when it comes to proper terminology. Nothing wrong with that. It's to be expected. No one was born knowing all there is to know about these rigs. I've been playing with them for over 20 years and I still learn new stuff about them from time to time. That said, pictures are going to be your best friend. Take good pictures of the items in question and post them here so that those of us who've been around awhile can help you identify them. Also, there's no need for you to make multiple posts in multiple sections regarding the same issue. That just causes unnecessary clutter and confusion. One thread per issue in the most appropriate subject heading will do. Don't worry though, I'll take care of the duplicate thread.

Thanks Scoutboy, corrections were made. I apologize for the confusion.

 

[Huntergt]

Hello,

I have a 79 Scout 2, with a 304 and a 727 torque thrust. I’m a young guy who is new to Scouts and boy are they fun… except when they are not. My reverse lights would stay on constantly when the key was on or vehicle was running. I removed the neutral safety/reverse light switch and notice the plunger and metal pin were pushed all the way down in the switch. I went and replaced the switch. When removing the switch the reverse lights turned off. With the new switch in hand, I was able to push the plunger down to turn off the lights, then release to allow them on. So it appeared to me the switch worked. However, as soon as I put the switch in the transmission, I can’t get the lights to come on at all. It’s as if when it goes in, the plunger gets pushed closed, which keeps the lights off. I tried two different switches, the one I have currently looks very similar to the original. I’m wondering if I have the wrong switch? Or is there a larger electrical problem? It’s weird that the plunger was all the way down on my original switch and the reverse lights were stuck on? And on the new switch as soon as it goes in and closes the plunger, they stay off? Other things to note, the engine will start when in any gear. This makes me think electrical problems? Worth noting, trailer lights were added and my bulk head connector through the firewall kinda sucks. Any tips or someone to talk to would be great. Thanks

Update, I believe I no longer have power to the neutral safety switch/ reverse lights. When I push down the tip, nothing happens. Additionally, could not get my multimeter to read in the three prong holes. I image this is an electrical problem further up the chain.

 

[Scoutboy74]

Ok, those clarifications change things dramatically. That's why proper terminology matters so much. So the NS switch also functions as the reverse light switch. The outside pins are for the reverse lights and the center pin is a ground for the starter when the shift lever is in P or N positions.
Is the combination 3 wire pigtail that connects to the switch still intact, or has it been modified by a prior owner? If intact, there should be voltage present at just one of the outside contacts with the IGN switched ON. This is with the pigtail connector removed from the switch.
If you have the switch removed from the trans housing, go ahead and reinstall it for further testing. It may or may not have failed, but function testing is best done with it in place. With the starter being able to actuate in any gear selector position, it's quite likely that a prior owner has deliberately bypassed the NS system. It's rare but, some folks have bypassed it because they want the ability to quickly refire the engine in gear in the event of an engine stall while traversing rough terrain. The other more common reason is that either the NS in the trans has gone into intermittent failure mode, or the NS relay under the dash has. Rather than properly diagnose and replace the failed part, their solution is often to bypass the system with the result being the ability to start in any gear position.

 

[Huntergt]

Thanks for the help!
Update - the reason I had no power to the reverse lights/NS switch was due to my B/U and turn signal fuse being blown. I replaced the fuse and now have power to the NS switch. I have also determined that the original owner did bypass the NS switch by using a single white wire (if I’m looking at right wires? - see attached photo). This would explain why the vehicle will start in any gear. I can live with this. However, I now need to figure out why my reverse lights are always on with the original switch (see photo of NS switch with plastic plunger piece pushed completely in). Or why when using a new NS switch, when I plug it in, the reverse lights come on, and I can depress the metal tip and plastic with my finger and the reverse lights go out. Which leads me to believe the switch works. However, when I put this new switch in the transmission, the reverse lights turn off and I can’t get them to come on in any gear. I’m going to follow the three wires from NS switch back up to the firewall connector and see if I find anything damaged.

 

[Huntergt]

 

[Scoutboy74]

The only time the switch should be passing current from one outer pin (input) to the other outer pin (output) is when the IGN is switched ON and the shifter is placed in R position. Switch the key OFF and no voltage should be present anywhere at the pigtail or switch. Move the shifter out of R with key on and only one side should have current. If you have current to either side of the switch with the key OFF, then the input feed is somehow being energized improperly.