Thanks scoutboy...
Where should I be looking for the electronic ignition control box? Just in case I ever have to replace that?
Dead as a doornail, no clue.
- Thread starter bruss01
- Start date
Thanks scoutboy...
Where should I be looking for the electronic ignition control box? Just in case I ever have to replace that?
ronmc1954
Member
It's inside the dizzy. If you go to this post you will see a picture of your dizzy. Looking in the hole where the 3 wires go into the dizzy you can see the module, it looks like molded plastic. It is a replaceable module.
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/2900-prestolite-dizzy-question.html
Ron
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/2900-prestolite-dizzy-question.html
Ron
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Ok... Probably displaying more of my copious ignorance here, but what is the "gold box" if it is not the ignition control module? Have I got my terms confused? I had a 76 plymouth at one time that had an electronic ignition box... It was about the size of a hard drive and mounted to the firewall. I was thinking the "gold box" was something similar. Did I guess wrong?
ronmc1954
Member
The gold box is another style of electronic ignition, read this post for all the different dizzys that have been used in IH trucks.
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/642-ihc-vehicle-distributor-identification.html
Ron
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/642-ihc-vehicle-distributor-identification.html
Ron
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
The "gold box" is the ignition module but only with a Holley dizzy.
The resistor element on your rotor is not is not a consumable device in normal use. It can become faulty but not from normal use.
However.... The use of a large plug gap can increase the secondary firing voltage to the point that the cap, rotor and wires can no longer satisfactorily prevent shorts to ground and carbon tracking. Delco's sad attempt at the high energy ignition (hei) used a cap mounted coil and a very large cap and rotor to improve the insulating conditions, however as the ignition system aged and the inside on the cap became dirty and contaminated the insulating properties were compromised till the spark would track to ground and complete ignition system failiure...
While voltage increases will increase firing wattage(power) no performance ignition will utilize only voltage to achieve superior firing. Increased current is a better way to this end hence a smaller gap like .045-.035 max and lower firing voltage. A msd will work better at .035 pug gap.
The resistor element on your rotor is not is not a consumable device in normal use. It can become faulty but not from normal use.
However.... The use of a large plug gap can increase the secondary firing voltage to the point that the cap, rotor and wires can no longer satisfactorily prevent shorts to ground and carbon tracking. Delco's sad attempt at the high energy ignition (hei) used a cap mounted coil and a very large cap and rotor to improve the insulating conditions, however as the ignition system aged and the inside on the cap became dirty and contaminated the insulating properties were compromised till the spark would track to ground and complete ignition system failiure...
While voltage increases will increase firing wattage(power) no performance ignition will utilize only voltage to achieve superior firing. Increased current is a better way to this end hence a smaller gap like .045-.035 max and lower firing voltage. A msd will work better at .035 pug gap.
Thanks Robert. I guess that explains why I can't seem to find it!
Hmmm... Thank you for that information. I'm a little unclear though whether you are advising me to regap the existing plugs, discard the existing plugs and get new ones, or just learn from this experience and set the next batch at < .045.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
It was an attempt at both. I'd reset the gaps to .035. Once you get tracking to ground the cap can be damaged beyond use.
Seeing as you are replaceing the parts anyway that is a mute point. Spark plugs can be damaged the same way but that is not your failure mode. No wan all 8 would die at the same moment. The coil can however. After running is the coil hot?
New rotor arrived. Tested both the old one and the new... Both have continuity from center to tip... Could not measure ohms because my vom was acting up.
Put it in the vehicle along with the new cap. No change in symptoms. Damn. I suppose that eliminates any hope of a quick and easy fix. Going to work on it more this evening, have to start at square one (now that cap and rotor have been eliminated) and work it by the numbers.
Put it in the vehicle along with the new cap. No change in symptoms. Damn. I suppose that eliminates any hope of a quick and easy fix. Going to work on it more this evening, have to start at square one (now that cap and rotor have been eliminated) and work it by the numbers.
Scoutboy74
Moderator
Just remove your plugs one at a time and re-gap to the suggested spec. While you have any one random one out of the engine, re-connect the boot and ground the electrode. Have a helper crank the engine. Maybe try towards dusk since you're not in a covered gee-rodge. Try this with several plugs if the first doesn't exhibit a spark. If you get more than one that doesn't exhibit a spark, you could well be looking at a faulty coil. Which takes me back to one of my earlier questions that went unanswered: did you happen to hang on to the previous coil?
Going back to one of your earlier posts, your oil change had nothing at all to do with this problem. IH engines have timing gears rather than chains. Sure, the wrong viscosity of oil, or improper level (too little is far worse than too much) can eventually lead to problems, like a seized engine that won't turn over at all, but not the failure you've described.
Going back to one of your earlier posts, your oil change had nothing at all to do with this problem. IH engines have timing gears rather than chains. Sure, the wrong viscosity of oil, or improper level (too little is far worse than too much) can eventually lead to problems, like a seized engine that won't turn over at all, but not the failure you've described.
All right, I will try that. I'm assuming you ground the plug somehow... Touch it to the block? Or just nearest metal? How many would you test? Some are a beeotch to get to and I find it hard to believe they would all go bad at once like this. I can re-gap them all, "just because", although that does eat up time and that's something I am not terribly flush with right now.
Re: old coil... Don't know, I've got a ton of stuff, maybe it's around somewhere. Haven't got hours to look for it right now unless it becomes critical to the operation.
Scoutboy74
Moderator
Exactly. Just so the plug wire is fully seated on the plug and the electrode comes in contact with a grounded metal surface. If you're going to re-gap one, kinda makes sense to do them all. Yeah, like Robert said, they wouldn't all fail at once. So what you're trying to do is not search for failed spark plugs so much as you are searching for a failure somewhere else in the spark making process, like the coil perhaps. Two or three that don't make any sparkeez would be enough to convince me that my problem lies elsewhere. In which case, yeah the old coil might come in super damn handy.
Getting kind of frustrated. I swear, I tested all these things already - and seem to get a different result every time!!! 
pulled and inspected the entire right bank of spark plugs. Tested a couple to see if there was spark at the plug (there is). Then I got inspired to check the fuel line again, after all, spark plus fuel equals bang right? Put a bucket under the line at the point I disconnected, between the filter and the carb... No fuel?!! Had the wife crank it over for several 10 second intervals, still no fuel. Could the tank be empty??? I would not have thought so, but the fuel gauge has never worked, so let's put some in and see. Well, I put in maybe a couple gallons and we have fuel overflowing the tank oops well at least we know there's gas for sure now. Tried it again and after a couple turns there is gas coming out of the fuel line. Wtf? It's a 19 gallon tank... 17 gallons won't feed fuel through the line but 19 will? Reconnected the line, and the truck started right up and ran sweet. Could it have been just an air bubble burp in the line? At this point I'm ruling nothing out, because everything I test, seems to give a different result depending on the time of day. Wtf!!!!!
I want to get the whole gas tank replaced with an upgraded 33 gallon tank and fuel level sender - maybe then the gas gauge will work?! Of course then they have to fab a new skid plate for the tank... And might as well replace the old fuel lines with stainless as long as we're in this far... Probably $2k for the whole deal. Now I just need to come up with the $2k. Grrr. Planned to do it all anyway, but the timing sucks. Got other irons in the fire right now.
pulled and inspected the entire right bank of spark plugs. Tested a couple to see if there was spark at the plug (there is). Then I got inspired to check the fuel line again, after all, spark plus fuel equals bang right? Put a bucket under the line at the point I disconnected, between the filter and the carb... No fuel?!! Had the wife crank it over for several 10 second intervals, still no fuel. Could the tank be empty??? I would not have thought so, but the fuel gauge has never worked, so let's put some in and see. Well, I put in maybe a couple gallons and we have fuel overflowing the tank oops well at least we know there's gas for sure now. Tried it again and after a couple turns there is gas coming out of the fuel line. Wtf? It's a 19 gallon tank... 17 gallons won't feed fuel through the line but 19 will? Reconnected the line, and the truck started right up and ran sweet. Could it have been just an air bubble burp in the line? At this point I'm ruling nothing out, because everything I test, seems to give a different result depending on the time of day. Wtf!!!!!
I want to get the whole gas tank replaced with an upgraded 33 gallon tank and fuel level sender - maybe then the gas gauge will work?! Of course then they have to fab a new skid plate for the tank... And might as well replace the old fuel lines with stainless as long as we're in this far... Probably $2k for the whole deal. Now I just need to come up with the $2k. Grrr. Planned to do it all anyway, but the timing sucks. Got other irons in the fire right now.
Scoutboy74
Moderator
Simma dow na. I know these events can be frustrating, but remember what you're dealing with. It ain't a prius off'n the showroom floor (thank goodness). You've ruled out a possible culprit. Even though there are some house keeping issues that need tending to, it would appear that your ignition system is not (and likely never was) the issue. But you had to perform some diagnostics in order to get to this point. Don't look at it as wasted time. If you think you're going to be able to fix every issue on this rig by snapping your fingers like arthur fonzarelli, eyyyyyy fuhget about it. It ain't happening on a 30 something year old machine. Most of us who play with these things fairly often get our lunch handed to us now and then, even the grizzled vets. Being persistent in trying to overcome those hurdles is all part of the game. I have a temper and reach my limit same as anyone else. Yes, I've thrown wrenches. I understand what I'm expressing caters more towards the hobbyist view than someone who relies on their rig for daily use, but there's truth there nonetheless.
Its my belief now that the problem has always been related to inconsistent fuel delivery more so than anything else. Yeah, I know you checked it at the pump twice already. But, what can't be denied is that there was an adequate supply of fuel in the tank this whole time before you topped off and you had no fuel pumping during the most recent test. Hmmm. Now you must figure out why. Is your fuel pump on the fritz? Maybe. Is your supply line from the tank pinched due to sagging or rotted body mounts? Possible. Is the line punctured at any point between the tank and the pump allowing air to be sucked by the pump? Might want to examine. Is there some sort of blockage in the line that allows fuel transmission in fits and starts? Blasts of compressed air at both ends would handle that.
In my experience on my own IH engines during poor start situations, I've found that its been easier for me to starve the thing for fuel than it has been for me to flood it out. Meaning when I thought it was flooded, I actually hadn't yet dumped enough fuel into the combustion chamber to light things off.
Its my belief now that the problem has always been related to inconsistent fuel delivery more so than anything else. Yeah, I know you checked it at the pump twice already. But, what can't be denied is that there was an adequate supply of fuel in the tank this whole time before you topped off and you had no fuel pumping during the most recent test. Hmmm. Now you must figure out why. Is your fuel pump on the fritz? Maybe. Is your supply line from the tank pinched due to sagging or rotted body mounts? Possible. Is the line punctured at any point between the tank and the pump allowing air to be sucked by the pump? Might want to examine. Is there some sort of blockage in the line that allows fuel transmission in fits and starts? Blasts of compressed air at both ends would handle that.
In my experience on my own IH engines during poor start situations, I've found that its been easier for me to starve the thing for fuel than it has been for me to flood it out. Meaning when I thought it was flooded, I actually hadn't yet dumped enough fuel into the combustion chamber to light things off.
Welcome to the world of old 'binders.
The good thing is that since almost everything on them is old time low tech it doesn't take a rocket scientist and gazillion dollars worth of test equipment to diagnose the problem(s).
I have been fighting an ongoing fuel issue with my Travelall. I know that if I drove the t-all on a more regular basis most of my fuel issues would resolve themselves. But at 2k miles per year it means that just about the time I have everything cleaned up and running right it will be left to sit around for a month or two. Which will make, with the ethanol blended fuels we are required to purchase just about everywhere, more fuel delivery problems the next time out.
Fire, air, and fuel in the correct amounts at the correct time is all it takes to keep these old 'binders running. The trick is to keep everything within the original operation parameters.
Good luck on your fuel issues.
The good thing is that since almost everything on them is old time low tech it doesn't take a rocket scientist and gazillion dollars worth of test equipment to diagnose the problem(s).
I have been fighting an ongoing fuel issue with my Travelall. I know that if I drove the t-all on a more regular basis most of my fuel issues would resolve themselves. But at 2k miles per year it means that just about the time I have everything cleaned up and running right it will be left to sit around for a month or two. Which will make, with the ethanol blended fuels we are required to purchase just about everywhere, more fuel delivery problems the next time out.
Fire, air, and fuel in the correct amounts at the correct time is all it takes to keep these old 'binders running. The trick is to keep everything within the original operation parameters.
Good luck on your fuel issues.
Scoutboy & Mark,
thanks for the commiseration. It's frustrating, probably moreso because I don't have a shop or really all the tools one should have to tend to a machine like this one. I got to stamp my feet around and pull my hair a bit until sanity returned and I could think things through a bit.
I had just replaced the fuel pump and had seen fuel at the pump, so I knew there was fuel!! At least in the line. And had run the car again for about a minute to make sure it was all working ok. Maybe there was trapped air in the line? Maybe there is sludge in the tank?
Frankly, I'm scared of taking off the fuel tank. All the old bolts are rusted and the thought of making sparks or even thinking of using a torch back there to get the tank out, makes me cringe.
To replace the fuel line I would need to bend the (stainless) line, and that's a tough job expecially when I don't have (much) experience and zero talent for that, and mistakes get expensive fast.
And once I get the tank off, what then? It might be money well spent to have someone with experience handle that chore.
thanks for the commiseration. It's frustrating, probably moreso because I don't have a shop or really all the tools one should have to tend to a machine like this one. I got to stamp my feet around and pull my hair a bit until sanity returned and I could think things through a bit.
I had just replaced the fuel pump and had seen fuel at the pump, so I knew there was fuel!! At least in the line. And had run the car again for about a minute to make sure it was all working ok. Maybe there was trapped air in the line? Maybe there is sludge in the tank?
Frankly, I'm scared of taking off the fuel tank. All the old bolts are rusted and the thought of making sparks or even thinking of using a torch back there to get the tank out, makes me cringe.
To replace the fuel line I would need to bend the (stainless) line, and that's a tough job expecially when I don't have (much) experience and zero talent for that, and mistakes get expensive fast.
And once I get the tank off, what then? It might be money well spent to have someone with experience handle that chore.