Clutch slave hose

[Mastiff]

I was test driving my s80 last night, and noticing that I've been having a harder and harder time getting into 1st or reverse (from a dead stop) without grinding gears. It wasn't always a problem, but most of the time. So I stopped at a stop sign and was working the clutch pedal in and out (and pushing harder) to see if I could ever get it to go. Well, the pedal suddenly went soft. It was dark, so I limped home in 1st (started in gear) expecting to have to go back to the spot and look for parts. Turns out the hose going to the slave cylinder blew out. My hope is that this was the cause of my problems all along - the hose slowly stretching before it gave out. Possible? The trans is newly rebuilt so I really hope there isn't something else I could have screwed up to cause the grinding. It has worked right since the rebuild.

Anyway, I did try to replace this hose a long time ago. I think I bought one from iho (not north) but it didn't have the goofy bubble flare on the slave end that the girling wants. Are the hoses obtainable, or do I need to have one built? If the latter, how do I describe the fittings on each end? Thanks.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Nothing goofy about a bubble flare, it is what it is, a different design sealing element for a high pressure hydraulic application!

And there are variations of both the girling master and slave sets out there that do or do not use a bubble flare at one or the other ends of the entire plumbing system. Then we have the clones of the girling designs such as used in many asian/euro vehicles and all forms of industrial apparatus that use metric versions of plumbing connections. The wilwood clones use english standard thread and flares. Some of these replacement cylinders use bulkhead fittings which use no flare of any sort, but are sealed with a copper crush washer.

All sorts of adapters are also commonly used to make proper transitions in this stuff, no different that the same stuff used for brake actuation systems.

Simply take the hose to a hydraulics service shop and have 'em duplicate it, that is done thousands of times a day in this business! Make sure they understand this is for a clutch a situation and not a brake system...otherwise they won't touch any hose make-up if they know it's for brakes unless they are legal-beagle for making dot-cert hoses.

A replacement hose will last another 45+ years.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Jeff May very well have a replacement hose so it would be good to ask. Here is how I worked around the slave hose connection.
Used a brake hose from a local auto zoo. I took my slave in and found a hose with the correct male threads and bought a copper crush washer to seal againse the housing. Been great for 5 years.

 

[Michael Mayben]

In actuality, the oem girling slave is designed to use either a bubble flare or the copper sealing washer since the end termination is a bulkhead fitting and will also seal with the proper flare termination. That is because of the weird "depth" of the port which girling designed into these cylinders...those date back to the late 1920's which is way before there were International standards for this shit!

Work with eurotrash cars from the late 40's, into the 50's and 60's and you will see many variations of the same girling components, though they are identical in fitment, they use all sorts of plumbing connections, IH just picked one of many configurations to use. Then as the asian manufacturing process grew post-wwii, they simply cloned the girling shit under license and vastly improved the quality as compared to the british crap.

Same holds true for the original girling hydraulic fluid use, plain old brake fluid attacks the oem girling rubber and rots it very quickly. So "special" girling fluid was used only for the clutch plumbing, not for the brake system onna Scout 80. Back in the day though, girling was dominant in the business world-wide and thought they could force the use of that shit...we now know where that led...

Why the hell ihc used one dam euro-import part system in 1961 beats hell outta me!!! They already used all kinds if u.s.-sourced "standard" hydraulic clutch actuation systems on many vehicles...so then they introduce one system that has to be treated inna special manner by both customers and the dealer service department! Ya think the old time dealership mechanics paid any attention to using girling "special sauce" when nothing else in their daily work flow required that shit???

 

[Robert Kenney]

Girling is a pita with there special fluid but to cure the rejection I have resealed my clutch cylinders with common rubber parts designed for the dot 3 brake juice. Never had a problem again.

Only the components in direct contact with the fluid need swapping.

 

[Mastiff]

Thanks for the info. I didn't know about the fluid limitation. I have plain brake fluid in there now. Is there a way to get the fluid that won't eat things up?

Michael, weren't you working on a slave geometry fixer? Or did you decide the market wasn't there given what it would cost? If you were going to the trouble, it might be a good way to introduce a more standard slave cylinder?

 

[Michael Mayben]

girling is a pita with there special fluid but to cure the rejection I have resealed my clutch cylinders with common rubber parts designed for the dot 3 brake juice. Never had a problem again.

Only the components in direct contact with the fluid need swapping.

Correct...and nobody in their right mind would ever use any nos girling service parts/repair kits from back in time! Same for a nos girling master or slave (I do know where some are on the shelf locally at a wholesaler!!, but I only consider 'em usable for a paperweight or conversation piece).

The three primary suppliers left in the u.s. Market of the repair kits for the girling stuff I use never advised the use of the girling sauce, their stuff was "made in u.s.a." and certainly required nothing special. I've rebuilt many of the girling items over the years and never used anything remotely associated with a girling "brand"! We learned that back in the early 70's!

Also, this "special" hydraulic fluid deal did not apply to the pigtail hose referred to in the subject of this thread, that was was not supplied by girling.

 

[Michael Mayben]

thanks for the info. I didn't know about the fluid limitation. I have plain brake fluid in there now. Is there a way to get the fluid that won't eat things up?

Michael, weren't you working on a slave geometry fixer? Or did you decide the market wasn't there given what it would cost? If you were going to the trouble, it might be a good way to introduce a more standard slave cylinder?

I'm still working on this but it's a low priority. Isa Ismail and I discussed this again last week. The market for this slave bracket conversion is virtually nil.

Replacement girling-pattern masters and slaves are available right now for many applications in three different bore dimensions, they come out of china, korea, japan, and all over euroweenie kuntry. Far more of these components were/are used in all types of vocational/off-road/construction/lift truck equipment than were ever used in automotive applications. Any shop dealing in equipment repair has these items on the shelf right now! Some of the slaves are the clamp-on design, some are the bolt-on design.

The wilwood version is by far the highest quality version of these items, and the price is certainly reasonable. The units are most commonly used in circle track race apps. The wilwood stuff uses common automotive hydraulic plumbing fittings, nothing euro-trash related.

 

[Mastiff]

Looks like my flywheel cover is interfering with full movement of the clutch fork. Ever seen that before? The picture stinks but you can see how the cover is deformed. Guess I need to open it up a little, unless you guys think there is some other problem.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Yes that can happen if your return spring is not able to pull the slave back when you release the pedal. And if you depress the pedal multiple times in rapid sucession the problem becomes worse.
Make sure the slave returns with a reasonable amount of force and not to much.

With the pedal released adjust the the fork stop screw so the fork is a bit away from the pressure plate.

 

[Mastiff]

yes that can happen if your return spring is not able to pull the slave back when you release the pedal. And if you depress the pedal multiple times in rapid sucession the problem becomes worse.
Make sure the slave returns with a reasonable amount of force and not to much.

With the pedal released adjust the the fork stop screw so the fork is a bit away from the pressure plate.

I think I'm confused. I interpreted the situation that if I pressed on the pedal I was pushing the fork into the dust cover before the clutch itself "bottomed out" or possibly even fully disengaged.

Don't the clutch spring fingers push the fork away from the dust cover most of the way? I always thought that little spring was just a detail to take up any residual slack and/or ensure the pressure on the clutch fully released.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Was the clutch fork/throwout bearing collar serviced/replaced? Has someone heated and bent the fork to create additional travel (common), is the fork pivot point in the bellhousing that the fork connects to been damaged/worn/broken/bushed?

Has the pushrod been modded/lengthened to increase travel due to a worn fork/bearing collar? If so that scruus up all the geometry and the pressure plate release fingers will begin to eat through the throwout fork. Most all s80 rigs I work with have had that workaround applied and it does not work except as a bandaid for a very short period of time.

These systems have no tolerance for wear at any point, they are very poorly engineered and operate the clutch in the manner of a toggle when all is correct/new/fresh. Once any wear is intro'd into the tolerance stack, they turn to crap very quickly.

 

[Mastiff]

was the clutch fork/throwout bearing collar serviced/replaced? Has someone heated and bent the fork to create additional travel (common), is the fork pivot point in the bellhousing that the fork connects to been damaged/worn/broken/bushed?

Has the pushrod been modded/lengthened to increase travel due to a worn fork/bearing collar? If so that scruus up all the geometry and the pressure plate release fingers will begin to eat through the throwout fork. Most all s80 rigs I work with have had that workaround applied and it does not work except as a bandaid for a very short period of time.

These systems have no tolerance for wear at any point, they are very poorly engineered and operate the clutch in the manner of a toggle when all is correct/new/fresh. Once any wear is intro'd into the tolerance stack, they turn to crap very quickly.

The fork and throwout bearing are purchased from ihon. The bearing is nos and the fork is one of your rebuilds I believe. It all looked good and tight to me when I put it together. The pushrod was purchased from iho as a replacement, not a modified fixer-upper. The dust cover itself is "new" and was of heavier material than the old one. The old one had been cut up and was damaged. Maybe a po had a similar issue.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Good detail! Are the clutch pressure plate and disc also replacements/new? If replacements, which clutch pressure plate is installed,...a angle link unit or a long-style? It's possible that the "height" of a rebuilt pressure plate was not set correctly for the very limited travel provided by that hydraulic system if it'sa long-style.

So all the critical parts are fresh. And that your clutch "release issues are now related only to the loss of pressure from the crapped hydraulic hose. Once that is replaced and the system is bled, then the "throw"/travel will all be correct as it should be.

I understand the mod on the original dust cover, again, that is done when these release systems are worked-around to allow increased travel.

I've noted a slight difference in the past regarding the dust cover used on I-4-powered Scout 800 and the same item on a Scout 80. That is due (I think) to the fact that the clutch actuation systems are different. I don't have a Scout 800 I-4 dust cover here now that is steel for comparison, I do have some of the plastic versions used with the pancake bellhousing for the four speed transmission (and a I-4/800 bellhousing also) and they are somewhat different so that is not a good comparison.

But I also see no issue with cutting away/relieving the area in question regarding the dust cover if in fact it impedes clutch fork travel.

Get that hose replaced and the system bled, then let's see how the "travel" works out.

 

[Robert Kenney]

I think I'm confused. I interpreted the situation that if I pressed on the pedal I was pushing the fork into the dust cover before the clutch itself "bottomed out" or possibly even fully disengaged.

Don't the clutch spring fingers push the fork away from the dust cover most of the way? I always thought that little spring was just a detail to take up any residual slack and/or ensure the pressure on the clutch fully released.

Think like mm said it would be best to get her back working then see where everything ends up.

I have seen some rebuilt pressure plates that were setup so wrong the throw out bearing would never be able to release before bottoming on the trans nose. In the manual the setup procedure is very specific with regards to finger location with respect to a datum.

 

[Mastiff]

I got a hose made locally, so that's all back together. The symptom of grinding going into 1st/reverse is still there though. I tested with the dust cover completely off and it makes no difference, so even though that was hitting at one time, it's not the limiting factor.

I can't explain this behavior: if I start it up, press the clutch and go into 1st, it buzzes a little going in. But once it buzzes the first time, I can put the shifter back to neutral and then go back to 1st or reverse with no buzz at all. If the clutch was not fully disengaged, wouldn't it immediately spin up the input shaft again and cause it to grind when I put it back in gear? If I release the clutch pedal when it neutral, the buzz comes back.

Is it simply normal for these old trannies to buzz a little?

 

[Robert Kenney]

Ok first and reverse on the t90 and many others are not synchronized meaning they do not have the brass rings/clutches to stop gear differential rotational speeds between the engaging components after the clutch is depressed and the trans is spinning.

After depressing the clutch the trans will spin down for a few seconds/5 seconds. Use second gear to slow the trans when the Scout is stopped. Depress the clutch and move the stick to second for a second but just bump the gear don't engage it. Then shift into first/reverse.

Down shifting requires double clutching. To spin the transmission up to match gear speeds in first. Takes a bit of practice but when you get proficient it falls in with no grinding.

 

[Mastiff]

It looks like something has happened to my clutch. It was working after the engine/trans rebuild, and at least intermittently recently, but just now it was like no clutch action at all. It does not ever spin down, and with the engine off on a slope (in gear) pressing the clutch does not allow the vehicle to roll. There's resistance to the pedal, but nothing's happening. I took a picture of the situation with the pedal fully depressed. The clutch plate itself is slightly less compressed than when engaged, but not much.

What could have happened?

 

[Robert Kenney]

Seems like the fork/slave are hyperextended. Also I think I see a gap betweem the flywheel and the clutch friction surface.
The finger adjusters have lock nuts so they hole the setting after adjusting. Possible one has backed off.

 

[Mastiff]

I don't think there is any significant gap there, though it kind of looks like it in the picture. When I get home tonight, I'll try to slide something paper thin in between there to see if it's possible. To my eye (when looking in person) I see no gap.

I don't have any "before" pictures, but the slave does seem to have it's push rod out quite far. The fork and throwout are "new", so does that point to something internal to the clutch assembly? Anything I can do short of tearing everything apart? I assume the trans has to come out to do anything significant.

one thing I notice is that even though I have it adjusted so the throwout is almost touching the fingers (or finger?) with the pedal out, and I can see the pushrod start moving immediately with the pedal, the pedal moves quite far before significant resistance is felt. Is this normal?