(another) hot start question+fuel gauge problem

[reitsma]

Living in 'cold climate' norway I was bit surprised I should suffer the same problem with heat and starter problems; after a short trip and standing parked in the sun the starter was 'dead'. It looks like the common fault with the solenoid as it cranked up at the first go after 1-2 hours cooling down.

Reading up on it in the sticky, I ordered a new solenoid to be mounted in the engine compartment and a starter heat shield to prevent it happening again (Jeff; did you get my order?).

I am also planning a new/refubished starter; I have found starters in the range from 40-90 usd, is there a big quality difference between a refurbished remy or a more expensive remanufactured bosch?

When following the the sticky on the solenoid upgrade (http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...pgrade-remote-starter-relay-installation.html) the starter solenoid found on the starter is 'jump switched' by a small jumper cable from the battery to the 's' terminal on the solenoid; does this mean the original solenoid is bypassed or does it still work when cranking the engine? I.e. What is the use of an extra solenoid in this case..? Sorry to ask but I am not that electrical educated...

Another problem is the faul gauge not working, I have tried with another gauge but I get no reading from the tank sensor (it stays on empty). Does this mean I have to drop the tank and install a new sensor or could there be a problem another place? Anyway to found out/test?

 

[FDChappie]

I'll bet your Scout's transmission is an automatic. What happens as the components in the neutral safety circuit age their current carrying capacity tends to diminish to the point where circuit can't carry enough current to fully engage the starter solenoid. Replacing the starter won't fix this problem, unless the solenoid really is in marginal condition.

I really don't like the Ford solenoid solution to the problem, yes it works, but it's massive overkill so solve the limited current problem and I also don't like anymore exposed battery terminals in the engine compartment than necessary.

An inexpensive head light relay will work too. The wiring goes like this.

Run a fused 12 ga wire from the battery cable terminal on the starter to terminal 30 on the relay. Run a 14 ga ground wire from terminal 85 to the screw used to mount the relay to the firewall. Remove the wire from the s terminal on the starter and connect to terminal 86 on the relay. Run a wire from terminal 87 on the relay to the s terminal on the starter and you're good to go.

Here is a link to the relay from napa.
napa auto parts

 

[Scoutboy74]

Your outside ambient climate has basically nothing to do with this issue. The problem is due to the starter-mounted solenoid and associated wiring being situated so close to the smoking hot exhaust manifold. It seems implausible, but that flimsy tin shield actually does a decent job of protecting the electrics from a major portion of the heat. Without it in place, it doesn't take much run time at all to start cooking the wires and the electrical contacts inside the solenoid.

The remote relay modification (not a remote solenoid despite common reference as such), either the Ford style, or a fuse type relay, which some people prefer, relocates the wires up and away from the solenoid, and therefore away from the extreme heat source. Yes, the solenoid is still called upon to engage the starter motor when the ignition is switched to start, but it is no longer serving as the major power hub for the entire vehicle electrical system at all times.

A quality part that is truly new and not re-furbished or re-anything is always preferable to a re-manufactured, old part. How many times has a given part gone through the re-manufacturing process? What kind of quality controls were in place during the most recent re-man? These are impossible for the consumer to know. The problem is that some parts are getting hard to find in new condition and can be rather spendy when you do find one. Perhaps your starter motor could be professionally rebuilt by a reputable electric repair facility in your locale? Might be worth checking into. This would also be preferable to buying a re-whatever unit off the shelf.

The fuel gauge is a completely separate issue. Do your oil and temp gauges work? If so, that means your constant voltage regulator (cvr) is functional. If not, that little doo-Dad is a likely culprit.

 

[reitsma]

I have a refubisher of electric motors in town, can hear with him about a brush-up of my starter, maybe the heat shield and thorough cleaning of the connectors migth do the trick without the extra relay/solenoid.

All other intsruments work o.k., it's only the fuel gauge which is broken.

 

[Scoutboy74]

It just might. I still have the original solenoid/starter wiring configuration with hooty in my signature. I have yet to ever experience a hot start issue, and there have been plenty of opportunities. My tin shield is in place, which is probably the biggest reason why it continues to work well for me.

Okay, your fuel gauge issue then, is most likely either with the sender/pickup apparatus in the tank, or within the wiring between there and the gauge. It could be that both fuel gauges you have are bad, but that is a slim chance. Unfortunately, the fuel tank must come down to access the sender and the wiring terminations at that end of things.

 

[FDChappie]

My 4 speed Scout II with headers and no heat shield has never had a problem either. The right way to fix the problem is to remove as much resistance as possible from the circuit. But there are a lot of places where it can occur.

I had a case backhoe with a nice new expensive high performance starter on it with the same problem. Especially when the battery was low. Once the relay was added it would reliably engage the starter until the battery was low enough to stop cranking. I could tell the po had spent some $ trying to fix the problem with the new starter and heavy gauge wire going to the solenoid. The problem was probably the neutral safety lockout switch.

 

[Scooter]

As an added side note to what scoutboy mentioned to the fuel sending unit. One possibility is that the float came off the arm of the sending unit. I currently have that issue of the fuel gauge not working, due to the float not being attached. I can hear it hitting the sides of the tank here in my shop space. Just been a bit lazy or too busy to get around to fixing it.

 

[Scoutboy74]

my 4 speed Scout II with headers and no heat shield has never had a problem either. The right way to fix the problem is to remove as much resistance as possible from the circuit. But there are a lot of places where it can occur.

I had a case backhoe with a nice new expensive high performance starter on it with the same problem. Especially when the battery was low. Once the relay was added it would reliably engage the starter until the battery was low enough to stop cranking. I could tell the po had spent some $ trying to fix the problem with the new starter and heavy gauge wire going to the solenoid. The problem was probably the neutral safety lockout switch.

This is true. In my experience, the seemingly random non-starter engage on the 727-equipped binders that can often be worked around by shifting from park to neutral isn't heat-related either. It can happen at any time, hot engine or cold, fully charged battery or down slightly. No amount or combination of relays makes the problem consistently better. Only way to truly fix it is to replace the ns switch in the trans.

 

[reitsma]

Got the 4-speed manual, so can luckily exclude all automatic related problems. Might just go for the heat shield and see, do a go-over of the electric circuits and install the relay when problem keeps persisting.

Have to drop the fuel tank than, planning a TBI conversion so will use that oppurtinity. Just need to find the time...

 

[reitsma]

Today changed the startermotor, made an extra ground connection between engine and frame, that helped a lot! Now all heat related problems seems to be solved.