392 starter cranking speed, oil smoke, compression?

[sdowney717]

I have twin IH nonic 392 palmer marinized engines with rochestor 4g carbs. One is reverse rotation.
Does cranking speed affect starting?
One of the engines is hard to start.
The other one starts fine.

Also one engine I noticed is smoking when it runs with a slightly bluish color. Not huge black clouds more of a hazy look to it.
That engine also has solid lifters so you have to manually set the clearance, other one is hydraulic.
The one that smokes is hard to start.
when it runs it runs fine. It is overfilled by a quart right now. The boat has sat for a number of years being worked on for issues unrelated to the engines. I just started them today and noticed this hard to start and smoky exhaust.

That engine has a history of flooding out, probably running Rich due to carb fuel overpressure and too high float level. I fixed that today.
It would not start and I noticed a lot of fuel down the carb throat. When I pulled the plugs they were oil-gas wet with some sludge on several. I cleaned them and put them in and managed to start it eventually. Oil pressure is a good 40psi on both engines at warm idle and does not change with increased rpm.
This hard starting engine also has a huge suction in the crankcase venting system. If you remove the oil fill plug and put you hand over this while running you get a good suction vacuum effect so strong it will whistle the oil dip stick tube of the dipstick is slightly lifted up. I assume this means the lower end is sealing very well? The other engine does not do this. I suppose a huge suction might pull oil past the intake valves and make it burn oil?
Both engines have 2 pcv valves one on each valve cover which feed into 2 separate ports on the intake manifold.

Would a lot of flooding loosen up a lot of carbon and cause a lot of smoking and hard starting? I ran the engine for about 15 minutes and the smoking did not really get much better.

So looking for some ideas on the hard starting and smokey looking exhaust.

Palmer turns these motors around so the front of the engine is the pto point and the flywheel is facing towards the front of the boat.

 

[Rock Tractor]

Two pcv valves per motor, one in each valve cover. Where is the breather to allow air into the crank case?

 

[sdowney717]

Well, there is none!
Engines date from 1970
marine gas engines dont have air filters, they have back fire flame arresters. The twin pcv valves I put on the engines 10 years ago to replace some old strange valves with worn out rubber parts that you could take apart. Right now I dont recall if there was a vent line running to the flame arrester.

Regardless, one engine starts easy the other does not and when running they both have decent power and do not miss.

The engine that is hard to start, if you flip the throttle lever to pump the accelerator pump, it will stumble start slightly then go back to just cranking.
I could switch carbs and ses if the hard starting follows.

 

[sdowney717]

67 327 pcv question - corvette forum

Looking into the vent issue, I found this discussion where people run ventless and only use pcv.
On a boat you dont want any vapors,
thinking now about any oil burning, creating a crankcase slight vacuum, I dont see why that would cause it.
I have read about the blocked drainback issue in the heads
the fact that one engine can develop a vacuum tells me the rings are in good shape so maybe the intake valves are the source or just needs to run the engine to help clean it out.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Post pictures or we will be guessing forever. Not many of these parlmer marine setups have been seen so the setup will need to be seen by us.

Marine engines don't use pcv valves due to the fact that they run very high manifold pressures all of the time when under way. They will have dual flame arrestors. Some are a rubber valves to contain internal crankcase explosions.

What transmissions are mated to them?

 

[sdowney717]

Velvet drives with 2.91 gear reduction

pictures will come along sometime later tonight after I come back from marina and if the batteries in the camera work

 

[sdowney717]

boatered - why do boat engines not have pcv valves?
I think the pcv valve issue has nothing to do with poor starting since both engines have the same setup.

Some boats use them, some do not use them

noticed this comment

pcv valves are a good thing the more negative pressure you can achieve inside the engine the better performing it will be a lot of racing engines run a vacume pump it reduces the pumping losses and increses hp. The only problem we have had was excessive prolonged idling like charter boats we had to disconnect them as they would affect the idle mixture enough that they would load up instead of idling for 8-12 hrs a day

 

[Michael Mayben]

post pictures or we will be guessing forever. Not many of these parlmer marine setups have been seen so the setup will need to be seen by us.

Marine engines don't use pcv valves due to the fact that they run very high manifold pressures all of the time when under way. They will have dual flame arrestors. Some are a rubber valves to contain internal crankcase explosions.

What transmissions are mated to them?

I second what Robert is saying, we need pics of this setup since there were many variations of these marine conversion. He and I both have much experience dealing with inboard and stern drive marine power units.

Any internal combustion engine (marine or otherwise) must vent in some manner. Pcv started showing up on marine engines around 1953 as they were the first engines to ever use pcv in order to prevent venting blowby gases to the bilge, that was one of the very first "coast guard" regulations for marine power units along with ignition-protected electrics. I seriously delt in inboard wood boat restoration for many years, primarily chris craft marine conversions involving hercules "k" and 283/327 chevrolet...later delt in chrysler 413. The earliest pcv I've seen was a '53 chris six banger which used the same "ac sparkplug" pcv that was used on all ihc-produced engines up through about 1970.

In order for a pcv system to operate fresh (external) air must be allowed to enter the internals. Tubes running from the carb-mounted flame arrestor are the fresh air source, the pcv valve is routed to a healthy vacuum port on the carb throttle body or the intake manifold.

Any engine (and most especially marine engines) which have set unused for long periods are going to have carburetor issues today. No doubt that is contributing to your starting problem.

I certainly need to see evidence of a "mechanical lifter" setup on one of these sv engines. I've never encountered such and in order to accomplish this, the entire rocker arm system would have to be exchanged for an adjustable setup (as well as the cam and the lifters themselves). There would be no reason to even consider converting an sv engine to solid/mechanical lifters and I'm certain that palmer would not do this as it would be a huge expense in doing so when they marineized these engines. What is different is the intake manifolds (low profile), carb/induction system, electrical apparatus (ignition protected starter/alternator/distributor), rotational direction (in a twin screw application), etc. The secondary water pumps are most likely belt-driven jabsco units.

The palmer marine versions of the ihc-produced sv engines aren't any different than any other marine-converted engine involving a Ford, chrysler, or chevrolet engine. All those designated "marine" engines are based upon an hd "industrial" block with much more rigid castings. The ihc engines done by palmer were not any different castings-wise as compared to the same engines in trucks, they were already very hd castings.

I don't have verified proof, but I've been told by folks that are very knowledgeable about sv engine production who actually worked in the engine plant, that the palmer-designated long blocks along with many other customers "special" engines had the reverse rotation camshafts and all peripherals installed on the engine assembly line, palmer did not tear the motors down and exchange the cams, that would increase the cost of the marine conversion to the point it would not be feasible.

Again...if you want to continue having us assist you with this issue, please post well-focused pics of the overall system. Marine conversions (either a commercial conversion or a homebrew) are notoriously "one-off" deals and were very low production and individualized systems.

After looking through that "boater ed" forum link, I find it to be 90% total bullshit, conjecture, and misinformation. Typical of most forums out there on the 'net. Marine applications are not automotive applications...and most especially "special interest" marine setups from the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's...in the 80's things started changing regarding peripheral systems and "emissions". And today's marine engine conversions are totally different from the older stuff in the induction systems, electrical systems, etc.

We don't deal in bs, conjecture, chatter (except in the appropriate sub-forum), and "I think" on this forum, we deal in fact.

 

[sdowney717]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com
/4153/5015602671_8846d22e28_b.jpg

 

[sdowney717]

I discovered the problem.
Today I took the heads off due to stuck and sticky intake valves on 2 cylinders.
discovered when I did a compression check and 2 read zero!

One pushrod was bent and the lifter was thrown out of the bore.

The engine is definitely a solid lifter with adjustable rockers.
I will post those tomorrow.


Where is the water jacket drains on this block??
I found a hex key 3/8 plug on the lower block side near where the oil pressure sensor is.
The plug is in good and tight and did not have the right tool to remove it.
The other engine has a central square headed plug which drains the jacket. This block has no central drain. All it has it a hex key allen wrench type plug towards the flywheel and located near one of the bronze jacket plugs.

 

[sdowney717]

Cylinders look really good, not scratched anywhere, smooth, no discernible ridge.

that is an interesting piston on the top with its oddly shaped dish profile.

On the other engine, when I had that apart, I sort of recall it looked flatter, with valve reliefs.

 

[sdowney717]

I certainly need to see evidence of a "mechanical lifter" setup on one of these sv engines. I've never encountered such and in order to accomplish this, the entire rocker arm system would have to be exchanged for an adjustable setup (as well as the cam and the lifters themselves). There would be no reason to even consider converting an sv engine to solid/mechanical lifters and I'm certain that palmer would not do this as it would be a huge expense in doing so when they marineized these engines. What is different is the intake manifolds (low profile), carb/induction system, electrical apparatus (ignition protected starter/alternator/distributor), rotational direction (in a twin screw application), etc. The secondary water pumps are most likely belt-driven jabsco units.

One engine is hydraulic tappets which I think were changed over from solid. The engine manual talks about setting the valves and gives the specs. So I think palmers were solid tappets from the get go.

The raw water pump is belt driven.
The circulating pump is gear driven.
Palmer created some adapter and drives these transmissions from the crankshaft's nose. It is a pretty heavy duty setup.
The boat is a 1970 37 eggharbor and the engines are likely original. The starboard engine was rebuilt with oversize pistons.
The port engine is the solid lifter one which was hard to start.

 

[sdowney717]

1970 palmer marine engine manual ih304 ih345 ih392

I posted my entire engine manual for the palmer 304 345 392 here

 

[sdowney717]

Palmer manual shows the tappet clearance adjustment

I prefer hydraulic myself and wish I had a set.

 

[sdowney717]

Does anyone have a link to a picture showing the head bolt torque sequence? I will need that soon.

Ok, I found this

1971 through 1975 392 cu.in
9---3---1---6---8
-------------------
7---5---2---4---10 90-1oo lbs

 

[Dealbreaker74]

Dude, that is some cool info. Totally off the normal path. And I for one am looking forward to seeing your adjustable valve train, as that has been a constant bugaboo when bombing these v8s.
A lot of us never knew these motors ended up in the various oddball apps that they did.
Thanks for sharing, and keep posting the updates!

 

[sdowney717]

Sticky heads and sticky valves
due to gasoline flooding
pretty nasty sticky stuff. I suppose gasoline and a toothbrush is my option for cleaning
intake manifold also
and it will take all day I can feel it.

the interior of the motor on the top end is very very clean. Which is nice.

 

[Michael Mayben]

I'll eat my words regarding the solid lifter stuff...but we need to see the rocker assembly setup on that. I certainly don't understand why palmer might have gone to the exorbitant expense of doing a solid lifter conversion unless it has something to do with the reverse rotation conversion.

I'd certainly expect that you are facing a non-oiling valve train due to cam bearing issues.

 

[Dealbreaker74]

Yeah, where's the money shot, dude? I've been waiting all day to see this adjustable solid lifter deal. I've got plenty of quarters, now flip the head over and let us see the goods!

 

[sdowney717]

Adjustable rockers with locking nuts

Solid lifter.
Are these still available, anyone have a part number?

I am going to replace the exhaust valve guides with perfect circle number
vg646. I figured I might as well seeing it is all apart.
Supposedly they will be slightly loose, but not as loose as my old ones I think.

I knocked out the old ones from combustion chamber out head top.
What is the recommended install, heat head, freeze and cool guides?