2300 Rebuild 1966 Travelall
- Thread starter Beluga
- Start date
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Beeooteefool!!! Leave it alone!!! Perfect!!!
Ya got way too much time on your hands! I'll send ya a dozen or so pump arms and ya kin surface 'em when ya git bored!
For those corners and down inside holes, I use those dremel steel brushes that are about 1/4" in diameter, with the bristles parallel to the shank. They don't last very long but will get into the tight spots. I go through about two dozen assorted dremel brushes a month. As some of the patterns wear down, they become more useful in other areas.
The reason I put the slight radius/crown on the contact patches is to reduce "stiction" at that nylon cam interface, allows a bit smoother/linear pump shot...just one of my quirks amongst many.
I "found" the parallel brush you were talking about. I thought it was a soft brush until I read what you said, then I actually went and pulled it out and realized those aren't soft bristles, they're steel. So I will try that at the next go around.
For the pump lever I used the rough grinding wheel first until the divot was gone, then the fine grinding wheel to smooth the surface, and finally the felt wheel with the rubbing compound. It's like a mirror finish and only took about 10-15 minutes. It was fun because you immediately see the results.
I put my radius (as small as it is) off-center. Here's my thought process. I totally see what you mean by less surface to "stick" with a radius. So I used the divot as the guide to where the lever is going to contact the cam. This contact point is probably different on every carb. So I centered my radius in the middle of the divot. The lines on the photo are exaggerated, but I thought it better showed what I was trying to do.
For the pump lever I used the rough grinding wheel first until the divot was gone, then the fine grinding wheel to smooth the surface, and finally the felt wheel with the rubbing compound. It's like a mirror finish and only took about 10-15 minutes. It was fun because you immediately see the results.
I put my radius (as small as it is) off-center. Here's my thought process. I totally see what you mean by less surface to "stick" with a radius. So I used the divot as the guide to where the lever is going to contact the cam. This contact point is probably different on every carb. So I centered my radius in the middle of the divot. The lines on the photo are exaggerated, but I thought it better showed what I was trying to do.
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Man I wish someone would train me in how to label jpegs!!! At least I can watermark!
Anyway...yore education in physics musta stuck! But yore "location" for the venturi(s) is in the wrong place!
Yore pic shows what we call the "throttle body". The various holes ya labeled do various thangs when used on various carbs! Some of those holes don't do anything on some variations! Mostly they are passages that carry vacuum signals or emulsified fuel for curb idle operation. That's why the holes in the gaskets must match original...in some carbs for instance one of those holes May be active as a manifold vacuum feed, on another list, the hole is dead, even though the hole in the gasket is still present. The passage was just not thru-drilled. And another reason ya can't mix and match all these older oem castings around even though they "look" the same!
The pic I've posted is a Holley 4150, oem version from an IH app circa 1971 or so, 392 motor. I'm just using this for illustration since it's the best shot I have of a venturi set.
This main body uses a power valve in both the primary and secondary sides. The two arrows point to the vacuum feeds for the power valves, I've drilled those ports out in prep for installing power valve blowout preventers, but the checks haven't been pressed in yet. In some models, I put the checks in the throttle body instead of the main body...location doesn't matter and is dictated by which carb I'm working with.
The four large holes are the venturis. A pair for the primary side, a pair for the secondary side. Ya look at a 4v carb as two, 2v carbs sharing one casting! Hanging into the venturis at the top, ya see the "booster" venturis, which are smaller units installed for specific purposes of "signal enhancement". Those boosters will vary tremendously from model to model both in Holley apps and carter/edelbrock (and any other carb that uses the booster venturi design).
The air flow capacity for any particular carb assembly is determined by the shape/size of the boosters, the shape/size of the main venturis, and the diameter of the throttle plates/bore. That value is expressed in "cubic feet per minute" (cfm). And to confuse, the rating system for a 2v carb is different from the rating system for a 3v or 4v carb (where "v" represents venturi).
Regarding your particular Holley list carb, it's "rated" at a nominal 275cfm. In actual use, that figure doesn't mean squat! What is critical, is that the size of all the passages and the internal calibrations of the metering block (the brain for any Holley modular) match so that correct "signal strength" is supplied for optimum a/f ratio from idle thru redline!
Anyway...yore education in physics musta stuck! But yore "location" for the venturi(s) is in the wrong place!
Yore pic shows what we call the "throttle body". The various holes ya labeled do various thangs when used on various carbs! Some of those holes don't do anything on some variations! Mostly they are passages that carry vacuum signals or emulsified fuel for curb idle operation. That's why the holes in the gaskets must match original...in some carbs for instance one of those holes May be active as a manifold vacuum feed, on another list, the hole is dead, even though the hole in the gasket is still present. The passage was just not thru-drilled. And another reason ya can't mix and match all these older oem castings around even though they "look" the same!
The pic I've posted is a Holley 4150, oem version from an IH app circa 1971 or so, 392 motor. I'm just using this for illustration since it's the best shot I have of a venturi set.
This main body uses a power valve in both the primary and secondary sides. The two arrows point to the vacuum feeds for the power valves, I've drilled those ports out in prep for installing power valve blowout preventers, but the checks haven't been pressed in yet. In some models, I put the checks in the throttle body instead of the main body...location doesn't matter and is dictated by which carb I'm working with.
The four large holes are the venturis. A pair for the primary side, a pair for the secondary side. Ya look at a 4v carb as two, 2v carbs sharing one casting! Hanging into the venturis at the top, ya see the "booster" venturis, which are smaller units installed for specific purposes of "signal enhancement". Those boosters will vary tremendously from model to model both in Holley apps and carter/edelbrock (and any other carb that uses the booster venturi design).
The air flow capacity for any particular carb assembly is determined by the shape/size of the boosters, the shape/size of the main venturis, and the diameter of the throttle plates/bore. That value is expressed in "cubic feet per minute" (cfm). And to confuse, the rating system for a 2v carb is different from the rating system for a 3v or 4v carb (where "v" represents venturi).
Regarding your particular Holley list carb, it's "rated" at a nominal 275cfm. In actual use, that figure doesn't mean squat! What is critical, is that the size of all the passages and the internal calibrations of the metering block (the brain for any Holley modular) match so that correct "signal strength" is supplied for optimum a/f ratio from idle thru redline!
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Float
I found the 116-3 float, but from pics and description...it's "center-hung". I was searching and I think:
116-1 is nitrophyl side hung
116-4 is brass side hung
I haven't ordered anything yet.
In respect to the labeled jpegs. Once they are the size I want, I simply open then up into the basic windows paint program, use the text and drawing tools to label it, then save it. It doesn't change the size or quality of the photo.
What does wot stand for?
I found the 116-3 float, but from pics and description...it's "center-hung". I was searching and I think:
116-1 is nitrophyl side hung
116-4 is brass side hung
I haven't ordered anything yet.
In respect to the labeled jpegs. Once they are the size I want, I simply open then up into the basic windows paint program, use the text and drawing tools to label it, then save it. It doesn't change the size or quality of the photo.
What does wot stand for?
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Yes...I had transposed the float part numbers! Good catch! That's what I get for working with two separate folks with the same problem (the float) simultaneously (the other dude is onna email chain). The other dude is working over a 2300 centerhung with a nitrophyl float that won't float, so I gave him the wrong number also. But he hasn't caught on to that yet so I got time to correct my mistake.
You folks always need to watch what the old fart sez!
"wot" stands for "wide open throttle".
So "paint" is the secret ingredient? I'll try that! Thanks for the tip!
You folks always need to watch what the old fart sez!
"wot" stands for "wide open throttle".
So "paint" is the secret ingredient? I'll try that! Thanks for the tip!
The first pic is the old throttle body gasket on the throttle body.
The second pic is the same gasket but on the main body.
Those 3 circled holes is what I want to ask about.
Since the holes are kinda sitting 1/2 on 1/2 off the openings in the throttle body....but with no corresponding holes on the main body, this should not cause any issue. Is this correct?
The new throttle body gasket fits just the same.
The second pic is the same gasket but on the main body.
Those 3 circled holes is what I want to ask about.
Since the holes are kinda sitting 1/2 on 1/2 off the openings in the throttle body....but with no corresponding holes on the main body, this should not cause any issue. Is this correct?
The new throttle body gasket fits just the same.
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Venturi Gasket Holes
So I think you're right about the shrinkage of the original gasket.
When comparing the old and new, the new holes look too big.
But when placed onto the throttle body, I think they are going to be fine. Yes, it appears there is a 0.5mm larger circumference than the actual venturi hole.... Is this acceptable?
Craig
So I think you're right about the shrinkage of the original gasket.
When comparing the old and new, the new holes look too big.
But when placed onto the throttle body, I think they are going to be fine. Yes, it appears there is a 0.5mm larger circumference than the actual venturi hole.... Is this acceptable?
Craig
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Your last throttle body gasket pic does show the "proper " gasket selection Craig. And I've verified it on a list 2997 I have here now that I "save" for a sample of this common Holley list for IH 266/304.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Ya wanna see an example of gasket shrink?? Here's a shot of another very common list 2300 from a 304 that was just sent to me for "rebuild". According to the owner, this one was running until just a few months ago in his Travelall.
But along with the issue ya see here, it's been full of water and sitting for years! Why do folks have to bullshit about stuff like this?? This carb has not been running in the owner's lifetime...he's too young! See the next post!
By the way...this is a typical napa-kitted carb...see that pos brass locknut/needle and seat combo? Another reason I refuse to use napa carb components, this gasket is a totally wrong material selection. And that power valve has no identification so that it's setpoint May be determined...who knows what it is...but that don't matter, that one is frozen anyway!
But along with the issue ya see here, it's been full of water and sitting for years! Why do folks have to bullshit about stuff like this?? This carb has not been running in the owner's lifetime...he's too young! See the next post!
By the way...this is a typical napa-kitted carb...see that pos brass locknut/needle and seat combo? Another reason I refuse to use napa carb components, this gasket is a totally wrong material selection. And that power valve has no identification so that it's setpoint May be determined...who knows what it is...but that don't matter, that one is frozen anyway!
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Another shot from the carb I ripped apart today. The one that was "just running a few months ago". No freakin' way!
This is what happens when ya crank down on the mounting ears of the throttle body when trying to "cure" a vacuum leak from using either a shitty base gasket or wrong base gasket! See the cracks through the mounting ear?
And ya can see that this carb was "in water" from the looks of the throttle plate. I can source new throttle bodies for later 2300 carbs but not for the oem stuff like this though I'm sure some of my other "carb parts" sources would have one if they marked it's original list number on it for reference.
This carb is going into the scrap parts donor pile unfortunately. I don't charge for teardown/inspection. But this carb has only a main body, metering body, and the throttle shaft/plates that are usable. The fuel bowl is irreparably damaged on the fuel line fitting from dropping and cracking, the brown nitrophyl float is totally "heavy", and someone tried to drill out the early fuel bowl with a hanging weight accel pump check and install an umbrella check.
Guy sez he's gotta nuther 2300 to send me to replace this one...only from a Ford app. We'll see!
This is what happens when ya crank down on the mounting ears of the throttle body when trying to "cure" a vacuum leak from using either a shitty base gasket or wrong base gasket! See the cracks through the mounting ear?
And ya can see that this carb was "in water" from the looks of the throttle plate. I can source new throttle bodies for later 2300 carbs but not for the oem stuff like this though I'm sure some of my other "carb parts" sources would have one if they marked it's original list number on it for reference.
This carb is going into the scrap parts donor pile unfortunately. I don't charge for teardown/inspection. But this carb has only a main body, metering body, and the throttle shaft/plates that are usable. The fuel bowl is irreparably damaged on the fuel line fitting from dropping and cracking, the brown nitrophyl float is totally "heavy", and someone tried to drill out the early fuel bowl with a hanging weight accel pump check and install an umbrella check.
Guy sez he's gotta nuther 2300 to send me to replace this one...only from a Ford app. We'll see!
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Wow
That gasket looks like fungified swiss cheese and that throttle bottle, wow. I know my Travelall sat for awhile, but at least it wasn't sitting underwater.
So I have a few things on order (including locktite blue), when they come in I can start to rebuild.
What about a "spacer" where the felpro carburetor gasket goes. I have heard of some people using an additional spacer there to "make tuning easier"? I am guessing this means that the heat from the engine, causes some expansion of the carburetor metals, and it can throw off some of the tuning you did when it was "cold". This is all an assumption on my part (and I know the inherent risks of assuming!).
So, could you educate me on this?
Craig
That gasket looks like fungified swiss cheese and that throttle bottle, wow. I know my Travelall sat for awhile, but at least it wasn't sitting underwater.
So I have a few things on order (including locktite blue), when they come in I can start to rebuild.
What about a "spacer" where the felpro carburetor gasket goes. I have heard of some people using an additional spacer there to "make tuning easier"? I am guessing this means that the heat from the engine, causes some expansion of the carburetor metals, and it can throw off some of the tuning you did when it was "cold". This is all an assumption on my part (and I know the inherent risks of assuming!).
So, could you educate me on this?
Craig
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Re: Wow
I use various forms and thicknesses of "spacers" when I can on any engine/carb/manifold combo. However, that fel-pro "heat dam" gasket you found was/is used as an oem solution to fuel "percolation" which happens under some conditions when the engine is shut down and the radiated heat from the manifold (most especially the exhaust "heat" crossover) causes the fuel in the bowl(s) to "boil" and expand past the vent and needle/seat and run down into the intake plenum. And...that gasket, though used in many oem apps over the years, is a part originally developed for the IH 266/304 engine using the same Holley 2300 you have! Most all other oem manufacturers used similar products over the years including some very elaborate steel or aluminum sheet "heat baffles".
The "tuning" thing you mention is actually related to the expansion/contraction of the die cast zinc carb components vs. The aluminum throttle body. That is what causes the screws to loosen over time resulting in carb performance deterioration...and why we rebuild 'em every two years as part of "maintenance" these days! But tightening the shit out of the screws that are treated with loctite also will prevent that!
In a "short-term" engine shut down, that manifests itself as a "flooded" condition momentarily. If allowed to say sit overnight, then the bowl(s) will have to be "re-filled" by the fuel pump during cold engine crankover and will take longer for the engine to start, that kinda puts excessive strain on the starter and battery over time.
Percolation became much more of a problem with the advent of elevated engine cooling system temps used by many manufacturers for "emissions" packages. Fortunately, IH never did that bit of smoke and mirrors that really affected drivability!
You could easily use a 1/2" aluminum, or phenolic, (or delrin) spacer under your carb and retain the heat dam gasket!!! I do that all the time! And...on some of the earliest versions of the sv motor intake manifolds, when ya install a popular "aftermarket" replacement carburetor, the throttle arm on those units won't clear the oem manifold, so a spacer is imperative to lift the carb off the manifold.
Some of the most popular carb spacers of all time were machined from mahogany! Wood is an outstanding product for this but really oldskool! Many dirt trackers still use only wood spacers!
But...for even mixture distribution in your application, ya definitely wanna use a spacer of the "two hole" design, not the open plenum type! Even as old as your manifold is, it's still a somewhat "advanced" (especially for that period in time) dual plane design.
In your case, one of the limiting factors is that "rod" type throttle linkage. Too much spacer and you will have to mod the rod system, possibly adding in a "z" segment to allow a proper angle of pull.
With your t'all (and pickups), there is plenty room under the hood for some carb lift...but on a Scout II there is virtually no room for that unless various air cleaner workarounds are employed.
This pic shows the current "heat armor" solution I'm currently using on my 392 witha 4v Holley carb. That is a 1/2" four hole spacer (correct hole diameter match for both the Holley 80457 carb and the rpt intake manifold), along with a Holley-supply version of that heat dam gasket. This one is a two-ply material fabbed from some kinda resin-impregnated vegetable fiber material, extremely rigid like fiberglass. The extensions on the front and rear of the heat dam "protect" the dual fuel bowls used on the Holley carb, the cutouts allow use of a 50cc accel pump on the primary bowl if desired (I do not use that!) and provide clearance for use with some applications of a Holley carb when used with popular aftermarket manifolds from weiand, edelbrock, offy, etc.
In addition to the heat dam stuff, I run "lpg" (propane application) intake manifold gaskets on this ic 392. Those gaskets block the exhaust crossover passages which further reduces/eliminates any potential for percolation and ensures maximum mixture density is available to the combustion chambers. This is a performance-oriented motor not a smogmotor! But in it's current incarnation, it produces hc/co numbers well under the smog specs for that era (circa 1973). More info about that here:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/carb-tech/76-beer-can-maneefol-guapo.html
After 20k+ miles pulling a 6500+lb. Trailer I couldn't be more happy with overall drivability at this point. Only thing that would make shit better is for the fuckin' gummint to git us out of the fuckin' ethanol bizz and ban the use of e10! But as we now see...it's only gonna git worse (e15 and beyond??) unless we start the revolution now!
I use various forms and thicknesses of "spacers" when I can on any engine/carb/manifold combo. However, that fel-pro "heat dam" gasket you found was/is used as an oem solution to fuel "percolation" which happens under some conditions when the engine is shut down and the radiated heat from the manifold (most especially the exhaust "heat" crossover) causes the fuel in the bowl(s) to "boil" and expand past the vent and needle/seat and run down into the intake plenum. And...that gasket, though used in many oem apps over the years, is a part originally developed for the IH 266/304 engine using the same Holley 2300 you have! Most all other oem manufacturers used similar products over the years including some very elaborate steel or aluminum sheet "heat baffles".
The "tuning" thing you mention is actually related to the expansion/contraction of the die cast zinc carb components vs. The aluminum throttle body. That is what causes the screws to loosen over time resulting in carb performance deterioration...and why we rebuild 'em every two years as part of "maintenance" these days! But tightening the shit out of the screws that are treated with loctite also will prevent that!
In a "short-term" engine shut down, that manifests itself as a "flooded" condition momentarily. If allowed to say sit overnight, then the bowl(s) will have to be "re-filled" by the fuel pump during cold engine crankover and will take longer for the engine to start, that kinda puts excessive strain on the starter and battery over time.
Percolation became much more of a problem with the advent of elevated engine cooling system temps used by many manufacturers for "emissions" packages. Fortunately, IH never did that bit of smoke and mirrors that really affected drivability!
You could easily use a 1/2" aluminum, or phenolic, (or delrin) spacer under your carb and retain the heat dam gasket!!! I do that all the time! And...on some of the earliest versions of the sv motor intake manifolds, when ya install a popular "aftermarket" replacement carburetor, the throttle arm on those units won't clear the oem manifold, so a spacer is imperative to lift the carb off the manifold.
Some of the most popular carb spacers of all time were machined from mahogany! Wood is an outstanding product for this but really oldskool! Many dirt trackers still use only wood spacers!
But...for even mixture distribution in your application, ya definitely wanna use a spacer of the "two hole" design, not the open plenum type! Even as old as your manifold is, it's still a somewhat "advanced" (especially for that period in time) dual plane design.
In your case, one of the limiting factors is that "rod" type throttle linkage. Too much spacer and you will have to mod the rod system, possibly adding in a "z" segment to allow a proper angle of pull.
With your t'all (and pickups), there is plenty room under the hood for some carb lift...but on a Scout II there is virtually no room for that unless various air cleaner workarounds are employed.
This pic shows the current "heat armor" solution I'm currently using on my 392 witha 4v Holley carb. That is a 1/2" four hole spacer (correct hole diameter match for both the Holley 80457 carb and the rpt intake manifold), along with a Holley-supply version of that heat dam gasket. This one is a two-ply material fabbed from some kinda resin-impregnated vegetable fiber material, extremely rigid like fiberglass. The extensions on the front and rear of the heat dam "protect" the dual fuel bowls used on the Holley carb, the cutouts allow use of a 50cc accel pump on the primary bowl if desired (I do not use that!) and provide clearance for use with some applications of a Holley carb when used with popular aftermarket manifolds from weiand, edelbrock, offy, etc.
In addition to the heat dam stuff, I run "lpg" (propane application) intake manifold gaskets on this ic 392. Those gaskets block the exhaust crossover passages which further reduces/eliminates any potential for percolation and ensures maximum mixture density is available to the combustion chambers. This is a performance-oriented motor not a smogmotor! But in it's current incarnation, it produces hc/co numbers well under the smog specs for that era (circa 1973). More info about that here:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/carb-tech/76-beer-can-maneefol-guapo.html
After 20k+ miles pulling a 6500+lb. Trailer I couldn't be more happy with overall drivability at this point. Only thing that would make shit better is for the fuckin' gummint to git us out of the fuckin' ethanol bizz and ban the use of e10! But as we now see...it's only gonna git worse (e15 and beyond??) unless we start the revolution now!
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Last edited:
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
The instructions in the kit use an illustration of the current Holley modular carb metering body design, the one with the idle mixture screws in each side of the metering block. You can see the bosses on your metering body where those screws would mount (the serrated holes) but yours were not machined through! There are hundreds of variations of metering bodies, that component is the brain of the carb.
Disregard that!
Your oem 2300 is the earlier version that has the idle mixture screws that thread into the rear of the throttle body. When you run those items in all the way lightly, you will see the sharp point protrude ever so slightly from the idle discharge holes in the throttle body bore...that "taper" is how the idle mixture emulsion is "adjusted".
On carbs such as yours, I set those screws at 2.5 turns out from light seat. The engine will start and run just fine. Once fully warmed up and ignition timing is locked down, then ya just diddle those screws for best idle quality and manifold vacuum reading. That has to be done while maintaining idle speed (using the throttle stop screw adjustment) within a range of 550>650 rpm for your rig.
As for the loctite, I use it on the throttle body-to-main body screws on that version carb. Don't use it on the bowl screws, it's not needed if ya really snug up the bowl screws. I also use it on the four small screws that retain the accel pump cover. Don't worry...ya can always remove any fastener installed with loctite, it's not "permanent"!
Disregard that!
Your oem 2300 is the earlier version that has the idle mixture screws that thread into the rear of the throttle body. When you run those items in all the way lightly, you will see the sharp point protrude ever so slightly from the idle discharge holes in the throttle body bore...that "taper" is how the idle mixture emulsion is "adjusted".
On carbs such as yours, I set those screws at 2.5 turns out from light seat. The engine will start and run just fine. Once fully warmed up and ignition timing is locked down, then ya just diddle those screws for best idle quality and manifold vacuum reading. That has to be done while maintaining idle speed (using the throttle stop screw adjustment) within a range of 550>650 rpm for your rig.
As for the loctite, I use it on the throttle body-to-main body screws on that version carb. Don't use it on the bowl screws, it's not needed if ya really snug up the bowl screws. I also use it on the four small screws that retain the accel pump cover. Don't worry...ya can always remove any fastener installed with loctite, it's not "permanent"!