1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

With an engine build you envision I doubt even a t-34 would stand up to it if you got into it very often.

By the way, unless you have driven a t-34 I would not be setting my heart on one. Yes it has od and 4th is direct. But it puts the big jump in gears between 3rd and 4th rather than between 2nd and 3rd.

If you are bound and determined to use a manual I would be looking at the 6- and 7-speed gear boxes found in the small/medium duty isuzu/ud/mitsu trucks. Some of those have two od gears. Even with two od gears the gear splits are much closer together and more evenly spaced.

I suppose, outside of bragging rights, I don't really understand what your end game for this truck is going to be. Putting that much on top of your engine is really going to blow a lot. You will need to really boost your pump and/or the injectors to take advantage of all of that extra air which will result in a lot of black smoke on take off. Even superchargers have a little bit of lag.

Have you considered how much parasitic drag those superchargers are going to have on the engine? The beauty of turbo's is they utilize waste energy. Dual stage turbo's would eliminate the majority of the lag and would not be sucking up hp and fuel while you are just cruising down the road. Now if you are wanting to use this truck in pull competitions then some big blowers on top will be of some use. But in every day driving, even if you were pulling 40'+ fivers with five slides, you would not need that much induction help.

Outside of the cost of installation I am thinking that blowers are going to eat up $$$ without a corresponding balance in hp gains big enough to warrant the expense.

I think you will find an allison mt640 series of transmissions have really nice gear spreads particularly since they have lock up in 3rd and 4th. The lock up acts like a half gear above 3rd and 4th to give you six forward gears instead of four. You could even upgrade to an allison mt650 series which would add a stump pulling gear at the bottom.

At the end of the day it is your truck and your $$$. Have fun!
 
If I were you id do my best to listen to the gents on here offering their extensive knowledge and many years of trial and error
 
I believe its important to note, before bitterness over runs this thread, that I am one of those people who are hyperanalytical. I also score a 31 on the autism tests.

In my pier group it is completely acceptable to flatly tell me I'm wrong, so long as your rebuttal is founded upon facts and devoid of opinion.

In short, its more important to be correct than right.

Marko, while your last post was heavy on opinion, it also contained an objective and well reasoned argument against supercharging; along with a sound argument for turbocharging.

While I'm not fully convinced that supercharger is impractical for my intended use of the truck, your statements did shed some light on my hyperfocus on volumetric efficiency. Which drew me away from my original intention. That being adequate low end grunt, while maintaining respectable fuel economy.

However, for clarity's sake, I will restate that I do not want a manual transmission. I prefer to use an automatic transmission.

The 4r100 can, with proper aftermarket improvements, provide the strength and durability I require.

If there is another transmission that can do the job better, my ears are open.

I'd also like your opinions on potentially converting the current engine over to propane. Its an inexpensive fuel that is easily obtained in my area. And I'm told that it is a cleaner burning fuel.

While I'm not worried about the environment nor do I believe in man's aledgid power to destroy the world; after all, nature is a tough broad and she can take care of herself; however, after visiting la on my way to tempe a few years back I was quite thoroughly convinced that we are capable of screwing up the environment where we make our nests.

So, how complicated is a propane conversion, and if its not to complex, who makes the best conversion kits?

Also, my truck's fuel tanks are mounted side saddle, would it be wise to move them to the bed, or mount the propane tanks where the gas tanks are now?
 
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Thank you for the kind words.

I will admit that most of what I post are my own opinions, most of which have been developed over the years from experience.

Propane as a motor fuel is not a bad idea as long as you never travel very far from a refueling source. Since propane has considerably less btu's compared to a like amount of gasoline you will be using considerably more propane to do the same amount of work. As long as the additional use does not end up costing more than gasoline you will have a winner on your hands. Also be aware, because it does not have as much fire you will have considerably less get up and go.

Propane conversions are not that difficult if you can find a kit with all of the parts and pieces. Ihc made the conversion a factory option on their trucks and tractors going back to the early '50's. In other words, the kits necessary to do the job are out there. The problem is they are pretty scarce. Purchasing a new kit is possible but they do not come cheap.

In regards to low end grunt, the ihc engines are notable for their copious amounts of low end grunt. Even hooked up to an automatic they will pull from a stop amazing loads. Just be prepared that low end grunt does not also equal high top speed.

The sv304 in my t-all is the exact same engine that was in a loadstar bus I drove years ago. Even when I have my 34.5' avion travel trailer hooked on behind we motor down the road with the traffic most of the time. Hills do slow it down considerably more than a Ford 460 v-8.

Will it pull as hard as a Ford 460 or GM 454? No. But it will use half as much gas as either of those will use.

As far as transmissions are concerned, any allison is going to be built heavier duty than any light duty transmission no matter how many heavy duty use upgrades are included.

If you use the power package of a bus the empty weight of the bus is going to be more than the gross combined weight you could ever put on a light line vehicle or put on a trailer towed behind. A transmission that is built at the factory to handle a certain hp and torque and gcvwr of certain amount is going to be more than adequate to any task you put it to.

In the majority of the country air brakes are the exception and not the rule like it is out here on the left coast and mountain states. If you were to purchase a bus with wet brakes it would come with a driveline parking brake that is cable operated and is designed to hold in place a vehicle that does not have a spring brake parking brake, park pawl, or compression from the engine to keep the vehicle from moving when parked.

By the way, if you are interested, harlows bus sales has a 1987 ihc/thomas bus with a dt360 in it for sale. Asking price as is, where is: $3,000.00.
 
I have been looking at the harlow site. Is that the one with the 5+2 manual? I've been considering it, but it is a manual. There are a couple ihc buses on there that have the t444e, one states "auto" the other just says 5 speed. I have sent inquiries on all three.

Who knows, the manual May prove to be the one with the best gearing.

One thing does have me worried, how much will it cost to get it from webster, sd to skamokawa, wa.
 
Ok, been doing some reading up on the at545 that might be behind the t444e in those buses. A lot of people don't like them. Most of the complaints have to do with gearing, excessive slippage do to the lack of a lock up torque converter, and the high engine speed requiered to bring the fluid pressure. Not to mention all the other problems that are intrinsic to those flaws.

This is making the 5+2 manual look more attractive. One of the form posters seemed quite fond of his manual 5+2. And his post implied that the +2 is overdrive and not a two speed tear end. Is that assumption correct?

Anyhow, hopefully I will know more tomorrow, provided I get a prompt reply to my inquiries.

Its late. Time to hit the hay.
 
You make less power with propane. Now......I have seen a 392 with propane and a turbo. The truck was powerful. The dt360 in the bus that marko was talking about would be the engine to have. For one it has wet liners. The t444e engine is parent bore. Google the dt360 swapped into a Ford. The gentleman used a 4r100, had an adapter made to bolt it to the engine. To me the dt360 would be better then the t444e, for one its mechanical injected, it can be in-framed (rebuilt in the truck), and can be made to put out a lot of power. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zo9acqsjqc
 
The major concern is that the dt360 won't fit. Does anyone have dimensions for the engine? I've looked and looked and came up with nothing.
 
Dt360
44.03" long
35.63" from bottom of pan to valve cover
28.8" wide
1,200 lbs dry weight.
175 hp at 2,700 rpm
419 lb-ft torque @ 1700rpm
flywheel housing sae #2
flwheel 41" single plate clutch.

Cummins 6bt
40'' long
24.9'' wide
37.9'' tall.
There have been folks who swapped 6bt's in fullsize IH's. A dt360 could be made to fit. Its a tighter fit in a 2000 and something Ford I posted in the youtube links. You can make it work. And if you looked and came up with nothing you didn't look hard enough.
 
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It is difficult to compare the at/mt/ht series of transmissions to any of the light duty transmissions one will find in pickups.

The at series do slip a lot but they do lock up in 4th.

None of the allisons hold back on a hill llike a manual. The first time you ever head down a hill and try to take it really slow and it goes into freewheel mode at about 10 mph you sort of freak out. But at such low speeds using your service brakes will do more to hold you back than a transmission will hold you back when the engine is at idle anyway.

I am not sure exactly you mean when you say you need high engine speed to get fluid pressure. If you have real long legged rear gears it will feel as if you are driving an old mopar with fluid drive or slipping a clutch. But that is the torque convertor doing the job it was designed to do. Once you get the wheel speed up to match the engine speed it stops feeling as if you are slipping the clutch. And in something as light as a light line truck, even if a really heavy camper was on back or hitched behind, it will spool up really quickly.

In regards to gear ratios, with the torque convertor you only really need ranges. I demo'ed a bus years ago that had a dd 8v-92 and an ht748 in it. The bus had electrical gremlins which would cause it to get stuck in high gear, non-lockup. When that would happen it was if od got canceled and made for some really interesting go from stop situations. But if would do it fully loaded. Not fast or up any steep hills. But it would move from stop in high gear.

I think you are overthinking the process.

I understand you want to get the most bang for your $$$ and you only want to do this once.

But if it were me doing the job I would stay with the allison that is mated to the engine in the bus. The transmission is already built for the job at hand and it is already mated to the engine.

Be aware you can "tune" allisons. Most of them are pretty box stock because from the factory they meet the service envelope without any tinkering. But with some simple valve and governor adjustments you can make them shift very aggressively.

The only thing you need to ensure is that you have plenty of cooling available. They are not as bad as a Ford e4od for heat but they will melt down rather quickly if they get hot. But, again, if you are using a bus for a donor you will also have available the trans cooler in addition to the trans.

Good luck.
 
steve grant said:
dt360
44.03" long
35.63" from bottom of pan to valve cover
28.8" wide
1,200 lbs dry weight.
175 hp at 2,700 rpm
419 lb-ft torque @ 1700rpm
flywheel housing sae #2
flwheel 41" single plate clutch.

Cummins 6bt
40'' long
24.9'' wide
37.9'' tall.
There have been folks who swapped 6bt's in fullsize IH's. A dt360 could be made to fit. Its a tighter fit in a 2000 and something Ford I posted in the youtube links. You can make it work. And if you looked and came up with nothing you didn't look hard enough.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the information. I had found similar (character for character) measurements on another forum, diesel bomber I believe, but they were attributed to the dt466.

Also, its acceptable to correct me via citation, but polite decorum is still expected.
 
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Marko, the bit about comming up to pressure, was in reference to the fluid pressure that must be reached before the trans will shift. But as you said it can be tuned.

So all in all, the dt360 sounds like it will be more work, but with a better payoff. Hopefully that 87 ihc bus will still be waiting, or something similar, when I'm ready to buy one.
 
Scout iiss said:
thank you for the information. I had found similar (character for character) measurements on another forum, diesel bomber I believe, but they were attributed to the dt466.

Also, its acceptable to correct me via citation, but polite decorum is still expected.
Click to expand...

Sorry for not being more polite, but maybe I take you the wrong way. So I call it like I see it. Swapping in a mechanical injected engine won't be as difficult compared to a electronic injected engine. Both can be done, both have pros and cons. If using the 4r100 transmission, a stand-alone computer will have to be used. I like marko's input on the allison transmissions, they do take the grunt. I looking to buy one day a IH travelette (crewcab) using a dt360, and I like the allison transmission idea. A dt466 has be shoehorned into a Ford dt466 f150 first start in truck - youtube
 
Steve, I agree with you on the transmission. I'll have to mod the trans tunnel to make it fit, but it will handle what ever I'll throw at it.

The dt360 is also looking very attractive, as most everyone is saying its a solid engine with loads of potential. Also, the tape measure says it will fit; barely.
 
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