100 Buck Truck Update

The pos is on the books for pre and post IHSTO board meeting microsurgery.

But since yore associates popped my azz last satidy, you or pop get to test drive! I ain't had time ta deal with my legal problems, but today I did get the final word from social security, and a personal phone call no less welcoming me to the land of socialist senior citizens, obamalama ain't scruud that up...yet, I git a big ol' check in March (well big for me since I ain't got no checks in about 10 years).

And t...that backazzwards carb ran fine backazzwards, tha dam motor izza reverse rotation item now, that dam isky cam wuz for a boat motor duo with counter-rotation! Carl just ain' figgrd that out yet since it's 3 speeds reverse and one forward.
 
the pos is on the books for pre and post IHSTO board meeting microsurgery.

But since yore associates popped my azz last satidy, you or pop get to test drive!


Well, since carl won't be here, I guess it's me. We aren't leaving the road in front of the house, though. Shouldn't have any trouble with carl's "associates".

Lyle
 
After a 60 day delay in the action plan...the $100 pos lives!

And I have to say, with carl not involved...things went real smooth!

Here's the short version of what lyle and I did...

The re-installed bazzakward carb was not an issue...but leaving the vacuum fittings uncapped and not correctly installed was. And the primary needle/seat was adjusted so that it was almost closed continuously, can't run like that! So that all got fixed and all the various ports have been id'd now that the rig is functional for the first time with this carb.

The distributor was stuck in one tooth off, so the timing could not be brought in...fixed that.

Even with the fresh fuel cell, the filter was all mungy and fuel pressure all over the place and not repeatable, the carb hates that kinda scene!! The cell had been plumbed through the oem tank selector valve which is full of tanktrash too, that has been pumped through the second new oem-style fuel pump with a filter after the valve. So the latest fuel pump is now contaminated also. And no doubt the fresh carb has seen some trash also now.

So once the motor was cranked again, we quickly got the carb kinda close so it would idle after a fashion and started diddlin' in the adjustments. But before that...I power timed it and bingo...the bitch sounded guud! Remember...this is a fresh breaker point Holley distributor with a fresh dwell setup and replacement coil, so absolutely no ignition issues are present.

Even though the exhaust system is basically non-existent, this motor sounded strong! Throttle response was excellent with no tweeking of the accel pump system. This cam is real lumpy and it's never gonna idle like a stocker! This is gonna be a great sleeper rig to circle the parking lot down at Mike's burger joint in downtown oregon city! And I'm sure that terry is gonna want a recording of "the sound" to play as background music in his shop.

So then ...we had a very repeatable instant starter and runner after a few hours attention, but we weren't satisfied...

Lyle rigged up an isolation valve for the fuel line so we could determine if the carb needle/seat was creating the wierdazz fuel pressure fluctuations... Or the fuel pump. Guess what, it's the latest new fuel pump.

Lyle then rigged his "test" electric pump which is a boneyard donor outta some kinda mitsubishi toy car. And it's obviously internally-regulated to 3psi output but at least it's stable for testing purposes. That solved the fuel delivery issue. At 3psi, the carb would allow the motor to cruise at say 45>50mph, but when pressed could not deliver sufficient pressure/volume.

So then we re-connected the fuell cell...and oem pump...still an erratic fuel delivery but once the oem selector valve is swapped for a fresh one I built for carl about two years ago, then I "think" the mechanical fuel pump will purge itself of trash and all of a sudden start operating normally. We'll have to see about that. Also, the installed pump allows "leakdown" so the fuel pressure can't be retained overnight, that means some engine rotation must occur to get fuel into the bowl when the rig sits for more than say 24 hours.

Finally after nearly two years, a second test drive was in order! And this bitch hawls azz!!! Pulls hard! I want that cam!!!! Tip-in is outstanding, idle quality with the lumpyazz cam is consistent, the electric choke makes the motor thinks it's fuel injected with no dam pooter involved, etc.

Cold start after an overnight coldsoak at 27*f was instant!

So now...it's up to carl to detail all the workarounds into a dd situation after an exhaust system is built. And the rear brakes won't hold, master cylinder is dry but wheel cylinders don't show any leakdown right now. A fresh master cylinder is on the shelf though.

Radiator has developed some leakage, lyle knows where/what to look for there.

Now the down side...remember that the heads were "built" by xxx at some point (not clackamas auto parts!!!). And there has been much issue regarding oil delivery to the rocker assemblies, all that was been rectified some time back.

As soon as we got the motor runnin', much valve train noise was present on the passenger bank. And I'm not talkin' lifter rattle...I'm talkin' noise as in too much clearance somewhere. At the same time, two lifters on the driver side were making that classic "rod knock" kinda sound..but it comes and goes randomly.

These lifters were recently replaced again after it was discovered the isky lifters were crap, new clevites are in the holes now, those are the correct lifters, mfg'd for clevite "brand" by johnson.

I've outlined to lyle what to do next in diagnosing that, but I think he should hold off and just accumulate some hours on this motor and see what happens. If the noise remains random, then we can deal with it. If it becomes constant and severe, then shut it down and we deal with that in yet another diagnostic fashion.

I'm "suspecting" that if the valve work was actually performed by "xxx", then no attention to installed valve height was given. Thus the pronounced valve train noise. We can "fix" that with some more careful attention to push rod length but it would be a real shame to have to do so. For now...the noise simply needs to be monitored and the motor shut down quickly if increase in noise is noted or becomes more excessive than it currently is. When the exhaust system is finally in place, this noise will be very noticeable.

In the mean time, I'll re-freshen the original carb I built for this motor, which I'm sure is now full of trash. Then we'll stick that one on and compare idle quality/performance and decide which one becomes a permanent resident.

So terry...that sow's ear reverse idle 4150 May in fact be a real nice player once it's installed onna motor that ain't broke!!! And...you will wanna sleep with this motor idlin' in yore ears!!! Not quite as lumpy as a keith black hemi...but dam radical for a an IH combine motor!

Ball's back in yore court carl..finish tha bitch!
 
Hey that pos back assward carb worked for me.
I just couldn't get rid of all the black smoke, at all speeds and
6 mpg sucked. And that was on a fresh motor.
 
hey that pos back assward carb worked for me.
I just couldn't get rid of all the black smoke, at all speeds and
6 mpg sucked. And that was on a fresh motor.

I "fixed" that super-Rich dealybob when I tore into that carb after ya swapped it to me...I prolly never told ya that??? But now I can't locate the electronic "build" worksheet for it so I don't remember the setup I ended up with. Can ya believe this has been nearly five years since you and I played with that carb stuff?? And I need to know that so I have a reference point for the pos motor. One more reason to pop the bowls off and freshen, I'll write the specs on the shop wall this time with a sharpie, scruu the pooter data!
 
Many thanks go to kathy for bringing Mike and the portable house up here for the weekend. It is sure nice to jump in the pos, punch the pedal once and light it off. I don't care what Mike says, I do not like that cam. Yes, it sounds good, but the tranny slams into gear since the idle has to be set a little higher to keep it running. But, the truck is not mine.

The rig drove really nice aside from the wandering steering. Great throttle response and it felt good once it came off idle. A great improvement and a long time coming. Learned a lot with this project, too.

Thanks again Mike and kathy,

lyle
 
Lyle and Mike,

I am trying to get a feel for the cam in your truck. Carl posted the photo of his cam card for the $100.00 truck. Is this the same one as is in the engine you just got running?

You ever do a compression check or a manifold vacuum check?

Thanks,
Robert
3250d1227849961-sv-series-timing-Mark-variation-cam-timing-card.jpg
 
I "think" that's it.

When you and I discussed that way back when you mentioned it should be kinda lumpy. But ya May not have realized this was the engine I was talkin' about at the time?

We've done many compression tests over time due to all the valve train problems previously encountered. But not in recent history. At the time the numbers were ok and didn't point to any issue, and that was after I "unstuck" the stuck valve from non-oiling.

Once I got everything locked in Saturday carb-wise, the vacuum level at "about" (we didn't put a tach on it until finishing time yesterday) 800rpm is 16>16.5"hg.
 
Thats the same isky cam that I have in my Scout and have sold to many of my customers. Its really not that radical of a cam in my opinion. The best vacuum I ever got at idle with this cam so far is 15.5" @ 750rpm on my personal Scout and it can have a minor affect on the vacuum power brake booster. It sounds like to me there are other issues with the $100 truck motor possibly the valvetrain hence why you need to keep the idle slightly higher.
 
thats the same isky cam that I have in my Scout and have sold to many of my customers. Its really not that radical of a cam in my opinion. The best vacuum I ever got at idle with this cam so far is 15.5" @ 750rpm on my personal Scout and it can have a minor affect on the vacuum power brake booster. It sounds like to me there are other issues with the $100 truck motor possibly the valvetrain hence why you need to keep the idle slightly higher.

We discussed Jeff's cam also yesterday as I was certain it's the same. Actually...except for the "smoothness" of Jeff's motor which I attribute to electronic ignition and f.I. Based on his setup, I'd say the idle quality is similar to carl's pos at this point. I used Jeff's motor as a reference point since I'm quite familiar now with it!

I'm very leery of the valve train now...but we just gotta get some hours on the motor and see what happens. And I really hope my "opinion" regarding the valve work is wrong!

We have several variations of fresh carbs also so that May affect the setup. The carb currently in place is an unknown at this point (setup-wise). I shoulda brought an extra carb with me but I really didn't expect this to work out as nicely as it did! There is a semi-fresh edelbrock there to try again, along with a slightly less fresh carter afb (Ford app) that I built for lyle's rambleall but he ended up going with the new edelbrock on it. Just takes few minutes to swap carbs the way we got it set up.

So we'll try all the tuning tricks before blaming the cam (which I personally want a copy of so I can be lumpy too!).

Even with a fresh point-trigger distributor, simply dropping in a pertonix will noticably improve idle quality in any engine...with a fresh mechanical advance unit and minimal end play, that distributor can be as good as ya can get!

But first...an exhaust system must be installed, otherwise this motor will always sound like crap and mask any other abnormal noise!
 
Mike,

thank you again for all your efforts, I was floored by the amount of work you two got done. See how I just clog up the process? Anyway, on the heads. I gave "xxx" the cam info when they built the heads. There were worried about lift and coil bind and ended up shortening the valves so that wouldn't happen. I'll dig out my receipt for it tomorrow and see if I can get you a figure. I can't wait to get over and actually drive the thing!! I wish I wasn't so busy this weekend.

Carl
 
That cam should drop into any IH sv and work just fine without removing heads and doing any valve work (if no valve-related issues are indicated in diagnostics), that can be done as ya know with the engine still in the frame and heads undisturbed!

We don't need to make any more changes or tweeks on this motor until it accumulates some hours. Let's leave it alone...and drive it!

If...the lifter bang on the driver side becomes worse and remains audible at all times, then do not keep running the motor. We'll have to diagnose that while it's in failure!

And if ya haven't done so already after swapping out the latest set of lifters, then change oil and filter again, that stuff is cheep comparatively speakin'!

And I just remembered...the manifold vacuum reading I posted was taken before I backed the timing off just a touch Saturday nite before we put it to bed. I never checked again! I'm sure the more advanced timing gave a bit "more" vacuum...so that should be considered a false reading at this point. I'll wager a guess that currently, with a hot motor, the manifold vacuum will be a nominal 15"hg with definite needle wiggle over a range of prolly two gauge ticks. My shop vacuum gauge is a bit more "damped" than the one yawl have.
 
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Mike,

anyway, on the heads. I gave "xxx" the cam info when they built the heads. There were worried about lift and coil bind and ended up shortening the valves so that wouldn't happen. I'll dig out my receipt for it tomorrow and see if I can get you a figure.

Carl

Yea I know this is in the IHSTO form not tech and I am not a member of the IHSTO so if my input is not wanted, slap me and I'll stop. The reasoning to shorten the valves is just wrong. The bleeding because of shody engine work should be stopped.

If coil bind is suspected due to cam lift, then what will shortening the valves do to fix that??? You actually need longer valves to increase the springs installed length to it won't run into bind. Again more mystery. Bad news if you take to much from the valve the lifter preload will go to "0" and the noise won't ever go away. If you suspect the valve train lacks lifter preload I don't recommend driving it until that can be verified. The lifter plunger retainer can be hammered out of the groove and lost in the engine. :icon_eek:

mm can check it real quick and certainly knows how.
 
Robert's analysis is exactly the same as mine...but I differ in thinking that this motor just needs to be run continuously (if only in the driveway) to accumulate some run time so that any other issues can be observed. Looking back...it May have less than five hours total run at this point??? But carl and lyle May have run it much more than I am aware of.

And again...the "noisy" valve train is on the passenger side...the obvious lifter bang is on the driver side...so two separate conditions, but no doubt related...my feeling is the driver side is just worse as regards assembled valve height. But please...this is a gut feeling, it needs to be proven (or dis-proven!).

If any valve train noise increases whatsoever, then shut it down and let's find out why.

We had to go through all this "lifter preload" determination way back when, that resulted in discovering the isky-supply lifters were crap, and I reviewed the procedure with lyle again Saturday. In fact, I told him that if he "wasted" a valve cover to make a test unit, then I'd replace it for him with a good one from my collection.

Dave wants to work with me regarding making up a set of "adjustable" welded rocker arms just for working with issues like this. That won't "fix" a motor, but will allow some tweeking of lifter pre-load to determine if that is a condition to address.

I've set aside an accumulation of parts to make up an "adjustable" rocker assembly. I just need to get dave to order in the "adjusters" (he's talking early hemi rocker adjusters), and then drill and tap accordingly. One more "project" we bs about but haven't taken action on! We've already confirmed that the adjusters in the Ford fe isky replacement forged rockers we have here now won't work.

Nothing said or written should be any reflection on clackamas auto parts machining operations. I personally was intro'd to those dudes and interviewed their machinist after the motor was running...he definitely knows IH stuff and walks the walk...very impressive! I'd use those folks again without even thinking about it!

As for xxx...yes...I currently have an "attitude" based upon what is playing out with others, and some other "informed/personal" experiences regarding their obviously erratic attention to business. But let's reserve judgement until we can prove (or disprove) any motor problems related to the supposed head work on this motor.

And another experienced eye/opinion/take on what's going on here is always appreciated Robert!
 
yea I know this is in the IHSTO form not tech and I am not a member of the IHSTO so if my input is not wanted, slap me and I'll stop. The reasoning to shorten the valves is just wrong. The bleeding because of shody engine work should be stopped.

Robert,

everyone is welcome in the IHSTO forum and we've never felt a need to keep tech out of our club forum. After all, without tech how would a club survive?

Your welcome here, and that is straight from the presidents mouth.
 
I just looked over the invoice for the heads and I remember me telling they were going to trim them, but I don't see it noted anywhere on here. I do have numbers for overall length, and tip height, if that will help. I also found the notes from when we installed the cam and how it came out with the degree wheel.

Carl
 
At this point...all that matters is that we resolve the noisy valve train in some manner after it's accumulated some run time. It's the one or two lifters bangin' on the driver side that really concerns us...and the fact that it comes and goes randomly.

I would expect it to rattle upon an initial cold start after an overnight sit...that's characteristic of these motors as we know, but that subsides as soon as oil pressure "peaks" when cold. On Sunday morning, with frost flakes on the water neck, there was no lifter bang on cold start...but it came and went while running randomly. We started and stopped tha motor several times while playing with the fuel delivery issue...lifter bang came and went but no correlation to engine start/stop/start.

Just go spend some quality time with tha bitcha and run it with yore ears on! If I can hear it, so can you!!!
 
Robert's analysis is exactly the same as mine...but I differ in thinking that this motor just needs to be run continuously (if only in the driveway) to accumulate some run time so that any other issues can be observed. Looking back...it May have less than five hours total run at this point??? But carl and lyle May have run it much more than I am aware of.

And again...the "noisy" valve train is on the passenger side...the obvious lifter bang is on the driver side...so two separate conditions, but no doubt related...my feeling is the driver side is just worse as regards assembled valve height. But please...this is a gut feeling, it needs to be proven (or dis-proven!).

If any valve train noise increases whatsoever, then shut it down and let's find out why.

We had to go through all this "lifter preload" determination way back when, that resulted in discovering the isky-supply lifters were crap, and I reviewed the procedure with lyle again Saturday. In fact, I told him that if he "wasted" a valve cover to make a test unit, then I'd replace it for him with a good one from my collection.

Dave wants to work with me regarding making up a set of "adjustable" welded rocker arms just for working with issues like this. That won't "fix" a motor, but will allow some tweeking of lifter pre-load to determine if that is a condition to address.

I've set aside an accumulation of parts to make up an "adjustable" rocker assembly. I just need to get dave to order in the "adjusters" (he's talking early hemi rocker adjusters), and then drill and tap accordingly. One more "project" we bs about but haven't taken action on! We've already confirmed that the adjusters in the Ford fe isky replacement forged rockers we have here now won't work.

Nothing said or written should be any reflection on clackamas auto parts machining operations. I personally was intro'd to those dudes and interviewed their machinist after the motor was running...he definitely knows IH stuff and walks the walk...very impressive! I'd use those folks again without even thinking about it!

As for xxx...yes...I currently have an "attitude" based upon what is playing out with others, and some other "informed/personal" experiences regarding their obviously erratic attention to business. But let's reserve judgement until we can prove (or disprove) any motor problems related to the supposed head work on this motor.

And another experienced eye/opinion/take on what's going on here is always appreciated Robert!

Having had some experience with xxx engines, and installed 5 of them over the last few years, I have only had one that did the rattle-clack deal, it was a 392 and it did it right after the cam break-in. It came and went too.

It ended up being a loose torque converter bolt.

But what do I know. :icon_confused:
 
having had some experience with xxx engines, and installed 5 of them over the last few years, I have only had one that did the rattle-clack deal, it was a 392 and it did it right after the cam break-in. It came and went too.

It ended up being a loose torque converter bolt.

But what do I know. :icon_confused:

This noise is definitely in the valve train. We will know more when we get the exhaust system installed and quiet the beast down.

Carl started it the last Wednesday and I did not hear the lifter noise, but it didn't run long enough to be sure. It ran out of gas after I had put in almost 5 gallons on Sunday and only ran it for 20 minutes. I suspect the crawler fuel cell (in the bed) is siphoning through the defective the selector valve into the driver's side tank. I will just bypass the valve for now and try it again, until I can get the rebuilt valve installed. *sigh* what's next???


Lyle
 
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