Have to fiddle with tumbler to find starter

GK_Slick

GK_Slick

Member
Not sure if this is the right place for this or not but I figured I would try. When I go to start my 77 Scout I usually have to slightly move the key back and forth in the start position to get a spot where it will hook up. The ign. Switch on the lower column seems fine as I recently had to adjust it to get my acc back. Has anyone else had this problem? And what was the solution that worked for you? I think this either showed up a long time ago over time or when a mechanic was trying to find a problem which ended up being the gold box.
Thanks
me
 
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I try and avoid workin' on this GM/delco/saginaw-supply schnizz whenever I can...jes I'm highly prejudiced!

But...if you are having a hard time finding the sweet spot for all key switch positions, take a look at the "rack" assembly, no doubts it's either really grunged up or is wore out. It's way sloppy in operation and prevents the actual electrical switch from "parking" in it's proper location for each switch function.
 
Thanks michael, I was thinking it would be the rack/sector combo. It just seems to be the start position but the rest are pretty soft. Have just been putting it off for a long time because I have never torn into a steering column before. The service manual does have some illustrations and what not that will help I suppose. Is there a difference between a sector for a tilt and non-tilt column?

Thanks again,
me
 
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I'm just passing on research I've done regarding your question, I don't have any personal experience with this issue!

Looks like the "magic" cut point is the m/y 1977 stuff for all GM/saginaw supply of these columns.

The IH p/n for non-tilt rack is 437 145 c1, the number for the tilt column is 491 621 c1. Based on that, yes, the parts are different.

The dorman "help" line of service parts for the tilt column shows their p/n of 83211 for '77 and later GM and chrysler stuff, same as used in IH/Scout II.

The dorman part for non-tilt covers 1969>2000 models and is p/n 83221. I'm working from a print dorman catalog with pics! And the two parts are completely different in design, not even close!
 
My parts manual gives 422 311 c1 for the sector, switch actuator. And for the rack, switch actuator 427 145 c1. I don't get a different read for the tilt and this does appear to be the only pages for the column. So I am looking at fig. 05-004 pg 6 rev. 21 of the mt130 group 05- steering gear. But I am in no way proficient at looking at this parts manual.
 
I'm working form an electronic version of the same mt130, you are flippin' paper. The pooter version is much more difficult to scroll through. This is a one-off deal and an electronic copy is not available from anywhere, source for this was a microfiche deck converted professionally many years ago. Reference your page 6, that is the non-tilt column, look at page 16 for the tilt version, and if ya go by chassis number and build date, you will see both the tilt-version parts listed. The illustrations are kinda close to the actual part, but totally different from the non-tilt parts.

Look at page 16, reference numbers 28 and 36 for the "tilt" column info to compare numbers.

Ya can't really depend upon parts illustrations in these lists to be accurate and definitive! And neither are the lists themselves! Some of the engine parts illustrations in the last parts list for Scout II, actually used drawings from the late 50's that had changed many times and were simply recycled over and over, just like in the service manuals.

They have been corrected thousands of times over the life of the vehicle production and then never again! Corrections were made in bulletin format, not by issuing new manuals, just pull out the wrong page, insert the correct page. Many of my references are full of hand-written corrections made by someone in the dealership over time. Some dealers stayed on top of the corrections, some didn't. Same as today except it's all online!
 
Hey thanks. I didn't see any more columns listed but now I will go back and check. I have some older benz manuals on the computer which I do like because of the quicker contents menu and links.
I really don't open this paper parts catalog very often because of the obscurity of it but it is good to have around. I purchased it about 12 years ago and still keep it in the box it came in.

Thanks for the help.

Update: I did find that info on page 16 just like you said so now begins the hunt.
Thanks again!
 
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I'm glad to find this thread. What appeared to be the oem ignition switch in hooty crapped out all of a sudden this past Sunday. After determining that the problem was the switch itself and nothing else, I set about finding a suitable replacement. I asked for part # d1404b which corresponds to a GM non-tilt switch. The brand I purchased was tru tech or something like that, made in the usa for $13. Once hooked up, I verified that the new switch did work in all positions. Then I set about mounting it in place on the column. This is where things went to hell in a handbasket. I was able to get it mounted so that the starter will engage and the tumbler will spring back into "on" position when released, however this postioning does not allow the acc to function. I can adjust the switch so that the acc will function, but then I am unable to engage the starter. Positioning the switch in the middle of the two extremes does not engage the starter or acc. My assessment is that this switch has more built in travel tolerance then my plunger rod has. Looking at the key tumbler as I twist it from one end to the other, it seems to be making the same degree of rotation that it always has. Until the old switch suddenly quit, I'd never experienced any hang ups or malfunctions over the course of my nearly 8 years of owning the vehicle. The only thing I can think of to try is to bend the rod out just a small amount as a means of making it a little longer. Is this a feasible idea, or am I apt to ruin some components? I know it functioned flawlessly for 35 years, but what a jacked up system this is.
 
I'm by no means an expert on these trev, I quit working on that GM/saginaw stuff back when they first came on the market and all the gangsters were were poppin' columns and stealin' them cutlass and grand prix junkers right and left for makin' lowriders.

That's when the aftermarket really started crankin' out these repop parts like we be talkin' here, especially the actual ignition switch.

And...the pisspoor "quality" of the replacement switches caused alotta grief on this stuff since most folks wouldn't pay what mr. Goodwrench parts wanted for that crap.

If you are sure that your rack system is not so sloppee it can't accurately travel (too much slack/backlash), then the problema has gotta be the switch "angle of the dangle"! It just is not in synch with the gear ratio/rod travel!

When carl's $100pos truck took an ignition switch dump in the middle of fightin' the non-oil to the rockers sitch, he had ta run ta napa and score a new switch too. The new one was real stickee and hard to actuate, we had hell makin' it adjust out so we could get back to work. Don't really know if it's "correct" right now or not! But then you know my attitude towards napa in general! Ittsa 'bout the same as my fondness for GM/delco/delphi/harrison/saginaw crap!

A "hot wire" anda screwdriver acrost the starter relay don't require no synch though!
 
I hear ya loud and clear. I could survive without acc as long as the starter actuates properly, which it does, but I hate the idea of that defeatist compromise. The switch works, the tumbler works, they just don't play nice together. I can't make the switch travel any shorter, but I think I can make the rod a little longer by bending it towards the firewall. It shouldn't take much, maybe a 16th of an inch. That is if I can get vice grips up in there and enough leverage on them to effect the bend. There ain't much room up in there to be tweakin' on stuff.
 
Well, I finally got this sitcheeyashun resolved the other night. After wasting two nights tryin' tuh put lipstick ona razorback hawg, I decided to take a different approach. I remembered that years ago I'd purchased a complete, used lockset including key tumbler for the Scout, but hadn't changed out the key tumbler due to laziness and ignorance of how to do it. I'd been using two keys all this time, one for the locks and one for the ignition.

So I swapped out the existing tumbler for the replacement one. What a difference. Apparently, the original tumbler had failed at exactly the same moment as the ignition switch did. What are the odds of that? Yes, I tested the old ignition switch with a screwdriver to verify that it was indeed faulty before I replaced it with the very high dollar trutech part.

Now I can actuate the starter and the acc just like the pros do and the best part is, one key does everything now. Hooty's happy again, and I've been able to stop throwing tools and spewing four letter words...at least until the next break down. This wuz a frustrating one and it dam near kicked my azz, but I snatched victory from the jaws of a chupacabra.

The only issue with this replacement tumbler is that I can remove the key when in the "on" and "off" positions, which allows me to both start and shut off the engine without the key inserted. Fortunately, once I put the tumbler in "lock" position, it functions with all the steadfast security we've come to expect from these rock-solid units.
 
So who'd wanna rip hooty??? Only that freakin' kiltwearin' whackeeweed farmer up on tha mountain where all them rothmobiles came from??? So's they could resell tha hoot to tha roths and start the whole cycle agin??

Don't need no dam ignition lock if ya got that semi-tame chupee settin' in tha seat 24/7...gonna play hail gittin' it hootybroke though...ya kain't tell a chupee azz form it's mouth! Look at harry reed and ya will see what I mean.

Guess them fwb krew is real proud of ya huh??? Keep that dam sageegnaw steering column away from that fleet of babyscouts though!
 
scoutboy74 said:
The only issue with this replacement tumbler is that I can remove the key when in the "on" and "off" positions, which allows me to both start and shut off the engine without the key inserted. Fortunately, once I put the tumbler in "lock" position, it functions with all the steadfast security we've come to expect from these rock-solid units.
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That is the way it was supposed to work originally, on the early rigs.
 
Mm: hail, he cud have it fer a big ol' bag n' sum zig zags. I'd be mr. Mellow and he'd have the headaches! I kno wut yer sayin' 'bout chupees. Them beasts be ass-chewers in more ways than one. My pet chupee has papers that sez heez offspring uh chuck schumer and babs boxer. Dam heez purdy!

Eric: my grandparents had a '60 chiv with that feature, so I know you're right, but I'd be surprised if any sii's rolled out that way. I think something is broken, but I'm not worried about. The thing is fixed as far as I'm concerned.
 
scoutboy74 said:
Eric: my grandparents had a '60 chiv with that feature, so I know you're right, but I'd be surprised if any sii's rolled out that way. I think something is broken, but I'm not worried about. The thing is fixed as far as I'm concerned.
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IH used them until through the around the end of the '72 my. My sii born in 7/72 has that style, my 72 t-all had that style, while my '73 sii has the new style.
 
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