350 Buck Truck Project engine revival

I probably did not run this thing long enough. It sounded like maybe they were beginning to quiet. I don't know this is the first time I have done this with an IH.

I did some googling and found some info on a vette site regarding moral lifters:

they will be noisy for several minutes. When I put in the morels, rick morel told me they might clack for as long as 20 minutes depending on temp and how long it took for the grease to wash out.

I know apples and oranges but it May apply.

Also in the comp cams tech forums regarding proper break in they say:always remove inner valve springs from dual valve springs or use low load springs in place of higher load springs during break-in. In addition, comp cams® offers low-ratio break-in rocker arms to give you an additional measure of camshaft break-in protection.

Which I did not do either. Fail
 
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It took a long time for mine to quiet down initially too. I used a comp grind with comp lifters. All the other engines I've built (chevys mostly) didn't clack like this on start-up. I did prime the motor as you did, but didn't manually pump the IH ones with a pushrod as I had done on other engines. They did quiet down after a few more minutes, and have been quiet ever since. No apparent harm done. My neighbor, a former merc-benz mechanic said this wasn't uncommon in engines he rebuilt, so take that for what its worth. But it concerned me for a minute or two!
 
rusty Scout said:
I probably did not run this thing long enough. It sounded like maybe they were beginning to quiet. I don't know this is the first time I have done this with an IH.
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Will take more time then other engine brands to quiet down. IH uses a low pressure lifter supply gallery. Others (GM) run full system pressure to the lifters so they pump out the air quickly.


rusty Scout said:
Also in the comp cams tech forums regarding proper break in they say:always remove inner valve springs from dual valve springs or use low load springs in place of higher load springs during break-in. In addition, comp cams® offers low-ratio break-in rocker arms to give you an additional measure of camshaft break-in protection.

Which I did not do either. Fail
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Don't sweat the comp breaking recommendations. You are only running 80# seat pressure, while the breaking recommendations are for high seat pressure applications above 120# I run beehives in those situations and have never run a break in spring or rocker. I have left shims out to limit pressures but no more than that. Never had a cam fail.

Rear cam bearing for/aft location is important. Did you follow this information? http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/gas-engine-tech/3380-cam-valvetrain-issues-2.html#post24997
 
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All that comp cams smokeblow is in regard to radical cams in highly built engines with very high spring pressure. No one would ever go to all that trouble to screw with removing valve springs inners and all on a stock engine rebuild and that would never apply to an IH engine anyway!

I know some advocate not pumping up new lifters by soaking and stroking, but I personally always pre-oil and pump lifters individually.

It May take upwards of three hours of normal operation for all lifter noise to subside. And even then, one or two May clatter a bit on startup.

The lifters in that epwi box are johnson lifters, they are simply a re-pak under the epwi house-brand label.

While hydraulic lifters all operate on the same principal, they are not all the same! The johnson lifters have no grease inside nor have I ever heard of that bs! Maybe a very light assembly lube but any "grease" would lock up any hydraulic lifter as if it was a solid lifter. Hydraulic lifters are pre-lubed with a light assembly lubricant at the point of manufacture, also serves as an anti-corrosion protection since they sit on warehouse shelves for years.

The IH sv and I-4 engines have a very unique lubrication system throughout. We stress this time and again in this forum, you cannot compare "other" oem engines with these as far as how any internal system should react after a rebuild. As both Robert and I have mentioned over and and over, cam bearing installation/alignment is critical and any machine shop assembler who slams in the cam bearings like it's a chev is going to end up eating their work. I know this is not the issue with your engine as you observed the process and attention was paid to this detail.
 
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Wish I had known that these lifters might take a while to sound normal. I thought that something was terribly wrong. But I tell you what she fired right up and scared the hell out of my quiet neighborhood. These glass packs sound are not far from open exhaust.

The cam bearings were installed by machine shop. Double and triple checked proper position and size and fit. Yes all ihnorth tech guidelines closely followed. Oil pressure was 50psi on the gauge at 2000rpms.
 
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Ok well the cards have been dealt. I did not run it long enough at 17 minutes. Now what run it again or pull the lifters and soak em/pump by hand before running it again? Am I going to damage anything by running it with lifters that are not pumped up? Was it a mistake to go with epwi ha855 lifters????
 
The problem is not with the lifters! The epwi brand are the correct ones (johnson).

Just keep running the motor, it will eventually quieten down.
 
Alright still noisy but different. Just to ease my mind I peeked in the valve covers and all pushrods looked normal and felt normal (the ones I could spin anyway). Plenty of oil and assembly lube. Oil pressure looked good.

Micheal: should I change the oil filter Or oil and filter Or leave it alone for 500 miles before I change the oil and filter?
 
rusty Scout said:
alright still noisy but different. Just to ease my mind I peeked in the valve covers and all pushrods looked normal and felt normal (the ones I could spin anyway). Plenty of oil and assembly lube. Oil pressure looked good.

Micheal: should I change the oil filter Or oil and filter Or leave it alone for 500 miles before I change the oil and filter?
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I'd leave it alone and only monitor the oil level through the first change.

Don't obsess dude! Drive the bitch and then deal with the oil leaks! Ya got good oil pressure when hot??? Then go flog it!
 
Cylinders 1,3,5,7 sound quiet like the lifters pumped up finally. Very loud lifter noise or worse somewhere in right bank. Noise same since initial start on Saturday. However, today we have a new noise. A brap brap brap coming from the passenger side tail pipe. Also feels like a misfire which I am trying to track down as an ignition problem. Drivers side exhaust sounds smooth and good.



See the video link below poor video quality but a walkaround the truck

http://flic.kr/p/8r1rmb
 
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Pull a vc and look for a bent push rod and or stuck valve.

The valve noise I hear is not a normal symptom of a flat(not pumped up) lifter. Quite a bit more pronounced then I would expect.
 
More pondering and fiddling has revealed yes compression in #2, #2 exh pushrod straight and in place, #2exh rocker not moving as much as others, probably just the last lifter to not pump up. My assistant now tells me brap brap brap was coming out of both sides before. Anyway folks who have never done this before this is how it can go. Uncertainty mixed with luck and trust in your shade tree skills.

Btw many thanks to the folks who have had a hand in this project. Doc stewart was one who has spent a few days here working hard recently and got this project light years ahead.
 
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Suggest pulling that #2 lifter and having a look inside at the plunger/check valve. Still could be a sticky valve. Remove the spring and verify a free guide/ oil good and work while you are at it.

Did you compare the #2 compression with another? Many times a sticking valve will blow shut during the compression stroke and bang.

Doc does spread his good will around.
 
Definitely pull any suspect lifter and disassemble, it's very simple to do but you must maintain a sterile condition as much as possible.

I have experienced non-func new lifter(s) in the past...one time. That was in regards to dealing with carl wiese's 392 engine build a few years back using isky valve train components. Two lifters out of the set of 16 were incorrectly assembled, iskendarian made it good after the problem was brought to their attention. But it did cause similar head-scratching and diagnostics at the time.

As for the pre-oiling vs. Not pre-oiling of lifters...that is simply a personal preference that both Robert and I have. We both have tremendous long-term experience in building engines and diagnosing problems, we each have our own opinions many times about the same issue. And we both are right regarding the lifter deal! Robert deals in super-performance motor arenas (such as funny car motors), I deal mainly in stock engine builds and all my experience in building high end engines involved the use of "solid" lifters of various sorts and were not IH motors which presents it's own challenges in regards to the entire lubrication system vs. Valve train.

There is no "right or wrong" regarding lifter pre-oil. Simply following the process found in any IH service manual tells ya that a dealership mechanic had no issues with this stuff. Back until 1984, the ihc "factory branches" did large volume in engine rebuilding for fleet use, basically a mini-production operation though some machine work was sent out by some branches as they did not all have the same capabilities. They knew how to install cam bearings, knew how to handle the rocker assemblies, and had new parts to use, never re-using old stuff. We don't have that luxury most of the time today and have had to develop "what works" for us at this point in time. They also delt only with IH-produced engines, not chryfordrolets that each have their own, unique set of "build" issues to contend with. Ya think "lifter noise" is not an issue with a small block chev??? Ya know what happens when those sorry-ass "pressed in" rocker studs pull out a smidge or totally fall out of the head while the motor is running???
 
michael mayben said:
as for the pre-oiling vs. Not pre-oiling of lifters...that is simply a personal preference that both Robert and I have. We both have tremendous long-term experience in building engines and diagnosing problems, we each have our own opinions many times about the same issue. And we both are right regarding the lifter deal! Robert deals in super-performance motor arenas (such as funny car motors), I deal mainly in stock engine builds and all my experience in building high end engines involved the use of "solid" lifters of various sorts and were not IH motors which presents it's own challenges in regards to the entire lubrication system vs. Valve train.
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While I get my share of hipo builds I have also build my share of basically stock engines for truck and marine apps. Including but not limited to IH. Many solid lifter apps but lots of hydraulic. Never once have I pre pumped a lifter. Lube the outside and slide them in. Preoiling and turning the engine should pump the lifter the same way. Never had a situation like rustys.

Very difficult to build one and come to the conclusion that one should always prelube and that advice given to not do so was faulty.
 
Sorry Robert. I stand corrected about lifter pre oiling and please bear with me. Lots of emotions and head scratching going on here.
 
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