Machine Shops w/IH Experience in Massachusetts?

7

77SSII

Member
Hey all,
anyone from the new england area out there?
I'd like to find a shop somewhere near me that won't laugh when I tell 'em what I drive.
Had my motor redone 10 yrs ago (304) but never got it on the road until last fall. I have about 4-500 miles on it and now it's making a ticking noise.
The truck has stock gauges that I had "rebuilt" and calibrated and I always keep and eyeball on them. The motor had a passenger side oiling issue so I pulled it and brought it back to the guy who built it (I'm not going back there again). He charged me an obscene amount of $ and put new cam bearings in it (they had about 10 minutes on them).
I've been driving the truck for a few months and took it on the highway a few times. It has a 727 w/3:73s and 33" tires. It would run really hot in traffic but cool down almost immediately once moving again.
I decided to pack up the family and take it my parents lake house (85 miles away). It was the first long highway only trip. Maybe 60+ miles of highway w/1 toll booth. With my eyes on the gauges it ran fine all the way up there at about 65 mph (gps). When we got off the highway a heard a ticking noise. Had the thing towed home (thank god for aaa) and a local mechanic pulled out the old stethiscope (?) and said he hears something in front of the oil pan down low....he also said the fuel pump is "wicked" noisy (boston thing). Pulled the valve covers and there is oil on both heads at idle. Haven't done anything else yet. Gonna pull the valve train out both sides and check oil pressure. I have a mechanical gauge I bought when the head wasn't gettin' oil. Then I'll try to find someone who will stop laughin' long enough to help me out. I think if I hear "you shoulda putta big block Chevy in there" 1 more time I'm gonna put 17 9mm holes in someone!!!
 
77ssii said:
... it would run really hot in traffic but cool down almost immediately once moving again.[/quote ]

if you read enough on here, you'll find out that some owners live with what appears to be a high coolant temp reading on the factory gauge . I have lived with it since day one of my running 304, the "normal" point it reaches is about 2/3 across the gauge . it's safer to get an infrared temp gun and check for any hotspots after a long run, though, just to be sure ...

77ssii;32665 said:
...
when we got off the highway a heard a ticking noise .
...[/quote ]

are you positive that you're not experiencing the Scout II's odd-sump oil starvation issues ? there's a lot of stuff floating around here about Scout iis and their need for an "extra" quart of oil, factory-recommended . I know I got my '77 Scout II (originally ss) to tick, on the highway, back when I went by the oem markings for 6qt . now I use 7qt, because of this board . and that's just one potential cause ... #5 (rear) cam bearing installation "clocking", excessive lifter preload, etc . can all contribute to the possibility of "collapse," and then ticking will be heard until oil is available to stiffen them up again .


if you have good oil drool out of your rocker assy., and if you have 7qt in the pan, then I would begin to "wonder" about the ticking . investigating it could involve a lot of work, perhaps more than is necessary?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
As kyle mentioned, we have extensive diagnostics for all the typical "lack of lubrication" issues we encounter daily around here right here in this sub-forum and stickeed.

The oil volume issue is peculiar to the Scout II app, but all of the issues can apply to any ihc-produced I-4 or sv engine.

Listening to these engines with a stethoscope is certainly a valid diagnostic. However, they are very noisy mechanically-speaking no matter where ya listen. That in turn leads even experienced mechanics down the wrong path when they try and make a comparison between these engines and the typical chryfordrolet.

An inexperienced mechanic is always gonna say "it's gotta rod knock" when in actuality ya got a lifter not pumped up or a bad rocker assembly. If you read through all these threads you will see that repeated over and over! Big difference both in root cause and the impact on your bank account!

Any engine/vehicle will experience elevated operating temperature in low speed/stop-and-go traffic!!! That is because heat exchange across the heat exchanger system is minimized. If the displayed engine temp decreases when airflow across the heat exchanger increases, then it's working as it should! I repeat this over and over here...no IH vehicle was manufactured with a marginal engine cooling system...all cooling system issues are related to lack of maintenance, individual component failure, or an attempt to "re-engineer" something that was not broken to begin with. The cooling system package on any Scout II, while a bit "lower" in heat exchange capacity as compared to a pickall, is still more than adequate for any load imposed on the vehicle if it's in correct operating condition.

When monitoring the temperature indicator, if the displayed engine temp does not react to increased/decreased load or air flow, then something is broken...faulty pressure cap, low coolant level, partially blocked radiator or engine water jacket internally, faulty thermo-control viscous fan clutch, missing fan shroud, debris clogging the radiator externally, etc.

The horizontal "normal" tick bar on the Scout II temp gauge represents a temperature range of approximately only 40*f! That ain't anywhere close to "hot"!! Any engine is going to display an increase /decrease of 30*f+ when subjected to an increasing/decreasing load. Perfectly normal condition for any motor vehicle. That means that horizontal bar represents a nominal 175*f at it's left hand edge, and only 205>210*f at it's right hand edge. An engine coolant operating temp of 210f is certainly perfectly normal under certain conditions! Many engines (not IH though) of the early emissions era used a 205*f setpoint thermostat to maintain minimum engine temp in that range!

The actual displayed "temperature" of any of these type indicators is affected by...charging voltage and operation of the constant voltage regulator which operates the gauge display, the gauge wiring condition, the condition of the mounting of the gauge pod on the circuit board, and the condition of the sending unit and it's actual resistance range under operating conditions.

None of the above verbosity is covered in any IH service manual. This comes from years of observation/diagnostics pertaining only to IH products. And this information is validated with instrumentation and constant data gathering spread over many years of looking at these motors over and over. This stuff is not generic, but specific to IH stuff only.
 
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Thanks michael!
So, I'm gonna change my oil and make sure it has 6 quarts or 7?
After that, I'm gonna take off the rocker assy's and remove the pushrods and lifters and inspect them for ????. I guess I'm gonna see if the pushrods are straight and that the lifters are flat on both sides. I'll also do a visual to see if they are scored in any way and all the same size?
The motor now makes a "ticking" noise all the time and is more noticeable at higher rpms. I do have oil getting to both heads. If I only had 5 quarts (up to the fill line on the dipstick) and ran it hard (highway speed @about 2800 rpm) for an hour would I do any permanent damage?
Is there anything gained at this point by taking the pan off? I'll run my magnet thru the old oil and save it as well as my wix filter. Should I do a post-mortem on it and see what's inside?

As soon as I get this done I'm gonna install some gauges w/numbers to see what's going on.
 
No need to pull the pan at this point.

If you do the "oil to the rocker arms" portion of the test covered in the document covered in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...I-4-sv-engine-non-oiling-rocker-assembly.html

Post #3 attachment,...you will be able to determine the issue and it's root cause.

Drain the oil and toss the filter , replace the filter with either a purolator "pure one", a napa gold (made by wix), or a wix oil filter. Dump in seven quarts of oil of your choice. That will eliminate the oil starvation issue at higher continuous rpm

screw the dipstick reading!!! Dump in seven quarts (with the filter change) and then remark the stick, that is your new proper minimum oil level. Don't doubt this, don't second guess this, just put in seven quarts!

If you want to verify the "increased oil volume" deal without doing anything else, simply make sure the oil in the pan right now is up to the full tick Mark on the stick, then add one additional quart of oil and go onna test run and see what happens. Do not be concerned with "too much oil"...that is not a problem. Some folks run eight quarts with an oil/filter change with no issues whatsoever in a stock Scout II sv motor.

You May be getting "some" oil to the heads and rocker shafts, but until you verify oil pressure at the rocker shaft spit hole on each cylinder head that feeds the rocker assemblies, you haven't verified/eliminated low oil volume to that point. Just because there is "oil in the valve covers" means nothing as far as diagnosing this issue.

This thread is a companion thread that goes with the previous link I posted, that is why these threads are stickeed, they deal with an issue we receive tons of emails and phone calls regarding:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...IH-lifter-rattle-syndrome-what-do-I-have.html
 
Ok, changed the oil and added 7 qts.
When I was warming her up initial oil pressure is 40 psi@650 rpm
45psi@1000 and 47.5psi@1250.
When warm: 22.5psi@650rpm.
I removed the oil press. Sending unit and screwed in my gauge.
After the oil change I hooked up a vacuum gauge to the pbbooster hose and it was vibrating really fast between 14.5 and 22 inhg. I never really set the vacuum and my power breaks prove it. The oil pressure gauge also seemed to have a very slight "bounce" to it both before and after the change.
I took the pass. Rocker assy off and stripped the rocker shaft. It looked worse than it actually is and there are no gouges or low spots. It felt a little rough before I cleaned it off. The old oil was very dark for only about 500 miles (not the break-in oil either) although I did add a 5oz container of the red permatex assy. Lube to it. The autoparts owner has an old Chevy and he is paranoid about zinc and flat tappet cams. He sells me old oilzum that he has stashed w/plenty of zinc. 15w-40.
Took out the pushrods (they are hollow) and the lifters came out easy w/the magnet stick.
The pushrods look good at both ends and seem straight (I rolled them on the table like a pool cue). The lifters look good and I couldn't get them to budge when I pushed down on them w/a pushrod. I went thru my mightyvac parts and I think I found the adapter michael used in his thread and I will rig it up to my gauge soon. Can I use my starter to check for pressure or do I have to pull the dui and use my old "priming" distributor and drill?
As you can see, everything looks clean. I haven't taken off the cap in the rocker shaft and not sure I want to. Can I take it for granted? Blow some compressed air in there? Spray some brake cleaner in there? Anything not to touch the caps.....

picasa web albums - 10772221827797118... - valve train

picasa web albums - 10772221827797118... - valve train

I didn't get what kind of oil pressure I should have in the head. What should that be?
Also, what should I use to clean off the rocker shaft/rockers, etc? I have 1500 or 2000 grit sandpaper. Should I just spray it down and leave it?
More to come. Thanks!
 
All right, made my mighty vac mcgrubber thing-a-ma-jig and took a little while turning the motor and jumping up on the 33s about 100 times but I have 25psi @the head and about 44psi in the block. I then put everything back in and tightened to 12ft*lbs.
When I put rocker shaft assys back I think I flipped the shaft and there was too much room for the front rockers. I put the lifters back in w/the magnet stick and a super long screwdriver I used to use as a chisel when I was a kid.
Question: do the lifters have any orientation in the block? The hole about 3/4 up on the body; that lets oil in and out? Does the lifter "chamber" fill up w/oil from above from the rocker assy? That is my only question before I put the valve cover back on. I also have the 5-post shaft so I didn't put any sealer on the bolt threads as they don't go into the intake; correct? I cleaned out the rocker shaft mounting holes w/prep-sol and q-tips. That's it? No loc-tite needed or lock washers? Just the 12 ft*lbs.
 
In order to see/measure the oil pressure at the single spit hole on the head using the tapered adapter, the camshaft must be perfectly aligned with the feed hole from the cam bearing on the #4 bearing/journal for the passenger side and the #2 for the driver side. Oil pressure measured at that point with the oil pump being spun by a drill motor at a minimum of 800 rpm should be the same as the oil pressure measured at the sender unit on the main gallery.

I see alotta "grunge" there where the rocker stand that feeds the rocker shaft mounts over the poil port. Did you feel that between your fingers and verify it was or was not "gritty" if it has any metallic sheen to it, then that is cam bearing material. There should be no carbon or anything else in the oil coming out of that hole to feed the rocker shaft.

There is no way to clean out the rocker shafts without removing the plugs and douching internally with solvent and brushes. Do not ever turn the rocker shafts upside down, to do so will result in non-lubrication. The rocker shafts and rockers must be re-assembled back to their original orientation unless you are assembling a rocker unit from all new parts.

Lifters must go back into their original lifter bores as each lifter face is mated to it's respective cam lobe. Each lifter will sit at a different height in it's respective bore because each cam lobe is stationary at a different position in regards to it's rotation. The lifters are oil-charged from a gallery that runs through the centerline of the bores, that is what feeds the oil hole in the lifter.

If you have verified that the rocker stand bolt holes are not open into the intake runners, then no sealer is used. A special "thick" hardened washer is used under each rocker bolt heat to prevent crushing of the rocker stand when tightened, those stands are very easy to crack if even slightly over-tightening of the bolts occurs.

As for the erratic vacuum reading...if you are certain the idle mixtures are adjusted correctly, the compression on all cylinders is within 10%, and you have no discernible vacuum leaks, then the wild swing of the vacuum gauge needle tells me ya most likely have a flat cam lobe(s). That would also result in one or more lifters having an abnormal wear pattern (cupping or metal transfer). And also, since the lifter can't compensate for a "low" cam lobe, the lifter/pushrod/rocker for that cylinder is going to be very noisy.

These engines do not oil through the pushrods as do other oem motors, they oil the valve train only through the rocker assembly.

To clean the oil varnish off the rocker shafts after disassembly, I use carb cleaner and a rag,...then a fine brass wire brush running in the drill press to buff the surface.
 
Ah ha!
I removed the rocker assy. And decided to check the oil pressure @ the head again after michael said the both the block and head should have the same pressure.
I started by putting tape on my crank pulley and I put a Mark @6 o'clock where I was getting oil @ the head. I indexed the crank/pulley another few degrees and spun the drill. I got oil so I put another Mark on the pulley @6 o'clock. I did this again and again until no oil came out @ the head. I have at least 60 degrees of rotation of the crank pulley where oil comes out @the head. When you get the cam bearing lined up properly you get a huge squirt out the hole that shoots onto the inner fender! My initial reading of pressure at the head, the oil was just trickling out the hole and I had a huge restriction that gave me only 25psi. When the oil squirts, I have 50 psi @the head and 50 in the block! Whewwwww!
There is also about 15 degrees on the crank/pulley where the oil will squirt onto the inner fender.
As far as the 5 post shaft assy., there are pix on my picasa site that show the 5 bolt holes are not the ones in the intake track. At least when they cheapened the manufacturing costs they made re-assembly a little easier.
I will pop-off the other side and test there as well. I'm not sure if this is the correct path as the truck makes this noise all the time and not just after a long ride but maybe......
Thanks for all the help and I will be back w/more info.
picasa web albums - 10772221827797118... - valve train

valvetrain


valvetrain


valvetrain
 
After reviewing your latest pictures, I understand now why you mentioned that the "pushrods are hollow" (all pushrods are hollow/tubular).

The pushrods in your pic are not oem design pushrods. Oem pushrods (and correct aftermarket replacments do not use oil holes in the ball tips since the IH engine does not require a lubrication path through the pushrod itself.

While the presence of the oil holes in the pushrods is not a dealbreaker here, they do lead to being suspect as to proper length! If the items are not correct length, then lifter preload is affected which can/will lead to lifter noise if too short. Whoever built that engine did not use the correct pushrods and each must be carefully checked for length. The ball/ball pushrods you need must measure a nominal 8-29/32" on a machinist's rule. I do not have the accurate spec for this pushrod at this time since those ball/ball pushrods were never used by IH in an oem application. Robert kenney probably has the actual accurate length for the ball/ball pushrods.

Also, there were two different design "ball tip" pushrods used by IH for the 152/266/304 engine application for use with the boat-style rockers. One style has a true ball pressed into each end, the other style uses a radiused hard tip that has a root diameter the same as the tubing.

Just yesterday, I sent the last batch of the reconditioned ball/ball pushrods for the 304 app down to the new shop to fill a customer order. We can no longer source the "short" pushrods for the boat rockers as new items from our suppliers. So shortly we'll be placing an order to have a supply of "short" ball/ball pushrods custom manufactured for ihon. Boat rocker pushrods are still available from our engine parts manufacturer for 196/345/392 apps.
 
Hi michael,
the motor is a 304 bored 0.060" with combined 0.100" shaved off the block and heads. The rods are manley units 8.850" long the size is printed on them. The cam is a schneider w/a 256-2h grind. One of the lifters had a very small gouge in the pushrod cup so I bought a new one. It still didn't move when I tried to compress it w/a pushrod and my body weight.
I have yet to start the truck but the hei is back in. I'll start it to see if the tick is still there then I'll do a compression check and see what's what.
I'll be back...
 
Once a lifter is purged of air and fully pumped with oil, you should not be able to compress it by hand in a quick test.

Obviously yawl did some calc's to come up with the pushrod length after the machine work..but any one might be "off" just enough in length to create a lifter rattle that won't go away. The actual pushrod length is determined to be an "average" based upon valve train geometry and cam/lifter technology, it's not an exact calculated value and allows for variances in actual machined components.

You May not know this...but Robert has made a set of each type "adjustable" pushrods for himself, Jeff/ihon shop, and me for use in diagnosing lifter noise issues in cases where the standard fixes just don't seem to work! The idea is to install the adjustable unit in the problematic hole and then shorten/lengthen as needed until the lifter quietens (assuming that pushrod length is the issue!). These are not meant to be installed permanently but used for templates for having either one, or a full set, of non-standard length pushrods manufactured to individual specification.

I'd be glad to loan/ship you the correct adjustable pushrod for your use in working through this deal if need be. Then if it turns out that one (or more) of your current pushrods are creating the issue, we can deal with that accordingly.

This same type issue could arise regarding a camshaft which has been re-ground and has had it's base circle reduced in diameter...no way a oem length pushrod will work with a cam like that...talk about noise!!!
 
Michael!
Hey thanks so much for the offer.
I hope it doesn't come to that!
The motor started off great w/no "funny" noises and ran strong w/no smoke or vibration or anything out of the norm. If the valvetrane was a little off wouldn't I have heard something from the get-go?
W/50 psi at the block and at the heads, the rockers seemed like they are getting a lot of oil and when I spun the pump the lifters pumped up and the pushrods moved.
I feel confident that the valvetrane is well oiled and can I go out on a limb and say that all the bearings are ok w/that amount of oil pressure?
Someone suggested that I drop the pan and check for any clearance issues (I.e. Bent oil pan and conn. Rod) or maybe a loose flywheel/torque converter bolt.
I couldn't hear the ticking at higher rpms because the motor is screaming by then.
I'll check compression and that should be the final valvetrane check before I give it a clean bill of health? I also don't like the drastically fluctuating vacuum.
It is a model 2300 Holley and a Holley technician told me to replace the 73 jets w/71s. The truck idles around 650 and with the low speed mix I can get it to stall but it doesn't really help the vacuum stop fluctuating.
Thanks
 
All right...it's running again and still making that ticking/clicking noise. Good oil pres. In the heads and nothing looked visually wrecked. Next chapter; compression test. The directions w/the snap-on kit said to measure initial and final pressure at normal operating temp. It also said to multiply the highest press. By 0.75 and no other cyl. Should be below that #. I used 6 cranks to get up to final pressure.
#8 75psi 1st jump - 145psi after 6 cranks
#6 70 - 145
#4 100 - 155
#2 75 - 145
#7 70 - 145
#5 70 - 140
#3 75 - 135
#1 75 - 160
75% of 160psi is 120psi. The largest gap was the 160psi to 135psi which is approx. 85%.
Also, I bought myself a fancy sears pro timing light and Brian at performance distributor said that they don't work well w/the hei unit as "they build in more dwell" and those fancy guns don't read them very well. He suggested a timing light w/out the bells-n-whistles. The timing marks on the block only go to 25 btc and my total timing is 34 (12 initial and 22@3000rpm). Do you agree w/him or has anyone had luck with a fancy gun and an hei unit?
My truck doesn't have a harmonic balancer behind the crank pulleys so I can't measure its' "diameter" to get some timing tape. Does anyone know what that dimension is?
Tomorrow I'll pull the pan to see if anything is obviously loose.
Thanks.
 
The dial back timing light will work fine on an hei system so long as the light has the inductive clamp on end. I have used them many times on hei type ignitions.

Run at a desired rpm and dial the light till the "0" Mark on the cover lines up with the crank hub Mark. Read your light seting and that is your timing at that rpm. You can plot the advance curve by doing the test at each 500 rpm.
 
I agree with Robert, electricity is electricity!!! The "distributor dude" is fulla crap, first time I've ever heard that excuse. The "dui" dam shore ain't nothin' special, just a slightly upgraded module and higher turn ratio coil! Even old-style inductive pickup instrument work on the delco hei stuff

and...any so-called "hei" distributor is a plain old inductive system in it's design.

The only issue I've known in 40 years of dealing with crappy hei systems is the fact that some oscilloscopes/analyzers won't trigger since there is no coil wire for the inductive pickup (or the older direct connect trigger) to mount to. In that case, a "special" inductive pickup is mounted to the top of the hei coil and then led to the scope trigger input.

Dwell is dwell, maybe they "build in more" as in ..."so what??"...the dwell factor (which is actually coil saturation time measured in degrees of distributor rotation) has nothing to do with a timing light being able to sense an electrical pulse in a conductor and then triggering a light!

As far as your noise is concerned...have you listened to each rocker/pushrod assembly with a stethoscope in order to determine which assembly the noise is emanating from?? While the engine is running, push straight down on the rocker in an attempt to collapse the lifter, if ya find one or two that will collapse fairly easy, then those will be the problem children to home in on.
 
Thanks guys.
My buddy just dropped off an old style gun so I'll use both just to see if there is any variation.
I just pulled the pan and there are no chunks of anything but there is some gritty sludge in the bottom of the pan. The oil pickup screen was clean but it has 1/2 of it covered.
Everything looks in place w/no missing bolts or anything and they are all "tight" not sure of the torque.
A few cylinders look scored w/vertical lines running up them as far as I can see which is maybe 1/2 way up? They are only on the inside wall of the cylinder.
#5 which has 140 psi on the compression test seems to feel rough where the scoring is.
Con rods: #7 & #8 move back and forth a teeny tiny little bit but the other 3 pairs don't. Is that my hidden treasure right there? It doesn't seem to matter if they are at the bottom or top of their strokes, they still have movement.
 
Went back under to see how much of a gap there is between any two parts (con rod - con rod or con rod - crank). #7 & #8 that move slightly when I push on them w/my hand have about 0.010" clearance w/the feeler gauge between the two con rods when I pull them apart w/my fingers. Con rod - crank there is about 0.006" on one side and 0.009" on the other. #6 and #5 have about 0.006" con rod - con rod and about 0.004" con rod - crank on either end. Roughly the same for #4 and #3. #1 and #2 have less than #7 and #8 but more than #s3,4,5 & 6.
The oil that I ran for 10 minutes before I started this whole thing is pretty dark compared to new stuff but there was sludge in the pan. Can it be from that as it mixes together? I'm gonna clean the pan real well before putting it back on.
Does anyone believe in putting magnets in the pan? My plug has a very small magnet on it. I'm running a wix 51452 filter.
I'll put the pan back on, fill it w/7 quarts then put my cut-up valve cover on it and try what michael said about trying to stop the rockers from moving. I'll probably get a stethascope (?) over the weekend.
The flywheel is on nice and tight and I can see anything that might be loose. The headers are nice and tight too.
After this I have been told, "just drive it and enjoy it, if something breaks then you've found your problem if you have one"
I think I'm gonna take their advice.
Thanks for all the help.
 
That is normal rod side clearance. I would only want to pull one rod cap and see what the bearings look like. The upper shell will show the most wear.

Now its the easy point to roll in bearings if needed.
 
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