Scout 80 Steering box

[Mastiff]

Is it rebuildable? I'm getting a fair amount of slop at the output shaft. It moves side to side before it starts rotating (when pushing a load) which feels like slop at the steering wheel. I've already replaced the output seal and done the tightening procedure. The rest of the steering system is all new/rebuilt so nice and tight.

I don't see anything readily available in terms of replacement bearing or bushings or whatever, so I'm not sure how a rebuild would go. Thanks.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Yes, they are rebuildable and yes, kits are availible. The housing needs to be rebushed and align honed. I doubt ihon has kits. But one can be put together for you.

The pitman shaft has a tapered stud that rotates in roller bearings that should be replaced while it is apart these are availible also but only in nos.

If you need parts let me know and I can set you up. I have done 5 of these ross boxes 2 for myself and 3 for others.

 

[Mochamike]

Unless your a purist, wouldn't power steering be better?

You can get a pump & box w/hose at your local junkyard for $20-$100.

 

[Mastiff]

unless your a purist, wouldn't power steering be better?

You can get a pump & box w/hose at your local junkyard for $20-$100.

Things are never so easy. I suspect it ripples through the other steering components which I spent a lot of time and money getting up to snuff. Anyway, even if it were easy, I like the old Scout because of it's simplicity - lack of clutter, fewer things to break or leak, easy access to everything, etc.

 

[Mochamike]

I totally get that.

That is one reason why I run an older sbc on propane, vs a newer one with TBI/fuel injection/computers, etc. Etc.

Kinda reminds me of nasa in the 60s... Spending millions on r&d to get a pen to write in weightlessness.
The russians simply used pencils.

 

[Michael Mayben]

is it rebuildable? I'm getting a fair amount of slop at the output shaft. It moves side to side before it starts rotating (when pushing a load) which feels like slop at the steering wheel. I've already replaced the output seal and done the tightening procedure. The rest of the steering system is all new/rebuilt so nice and tight.

I don't see anything readily available in terms of replacement bearing or bushings or whatever, so I'm not sure how a rebuild would go. Thanks.

The ross gear is destroyed over time, most usually from flat-towing the rig and allowing the steering wheel unrestricted movement so that it "slams" lock-to-lock when following in turns. Same syndrome as affects early Jeep gears.

Robert/ihon does have the "right" fix for the s80 ross gears!! There are some less-than-honest vendors out there who "claim" to rebuild or have "rebuilt" ross gears but when you see one it's quite simple to see the only "rebuilt" side of that equation is that they have been hit with the glass bead machine, painted, and put in some kinda box!

And keep in mind there were two different s80 ross gears used...the "big bell" with the rubber boot, and the small bell (most common). Those have two different input spline diameters, so the rebuild parts are different also (some of the parts).

The s80 ross gear is a "cam and roller" gear, it's internal design is considerably different as compared to a worm and sector gear. Some later four cylinder gears used were cast iron gemmer-sourced.

This pic is a "small spline" ross cam that is beat to hell. The cam follower with the roller bearings is the part Robert referred to, the one that matches this cam was totally destroyed on the end, so that it could not follow the cam and no amount of adjustment will compensate for that. That cam follower is the critical component.

Yes there are workarounds for various types of steering issues, but for folks who are doing restos or want to keep stuff original, that is not an option.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Here's a pic of the steering lever with the cam follower that is destroyed. It's hard to tell in the pic...but the "taper" on the follower is a precision ground bearing point that rotates in the cam groove. This one is beat to hell and has been flattened over time, also damaging the cam itself, so this one no longer moves smoothly and binds terribly at various points in the steering arc.

There is a critical setup on the cam support bearings themselves involving shims and "pre-load" on the end caps. The bearings themselves are similar to headset bearings inna bicycle. And as Robert mentioned, the case must be re-bushed if needed which is the support for the lever.

 

[Robert Kenney]

I have found that the first thing guys do when the steering is sloppy on there s80 is to tighten the adjuster on the top of the box. Bad bad bad once the box is built and adjusted it will last a long time if not beaten. Only the bushings and steering joints etc become sloppy not the cam/roller interface. The adjuster does nothing for the slop in the bushings. The other thing is that the ross cam/roller boxes are only tight in the dead center of their range of motion as you can see in mm's picture where the groove is smallest in the middle. The center must be measured by dividing the total number input shaft turns from right to left by two and turning the shaft back to the middle. Mark and install the linkage and box at that point so it represents driving straight ahead.

The roller stud must have a tiny bit of clerance between the tip and the worm/cam groove so that it can rotate againts the thrust side of the groove. If it can not rotate it will skid, destroying the cam and roller. Many times the roller develops a flat spot causingit to slide and jam which can cause the steering to jam.

Ihc lever shaft (pitman shaft) roller repair kit

Damage typical from improper over adjusting and age

 

[RobertC]

I have found thag the first thing guys do when the steering is sloppy on there s80 is to tighten the adjuster on the top of the box. Bad bad bad

I completely agree with robertk on this.

But, it is every other make of steering box from this era --not only s80.

Many years ago, I bought a used corvair steering box (needed a "new" shaft -- bearing surface on worm gear was "shot").

The top of the adjusting screw was even with the nut.

When I took it apart, I almost cut my finger because the center tooth on the pinion shaft had broken off (I assume because someone had adjusted it so "far down".) fortunately, the "worm" shaft / bearing surface was in very good shape.

I put the "rebuilt" box back together under the watchful eyes of my corvair mechanic, but he insisted (correctly) on doing the adjustment...

 

[Michael Mayben]

Robert and I discussed this issue by phone today mastiff! I understand that you are now "hooked up" regarding a ross gear!

And...in the future, we're gonna have truly "rebuilt" ross steering gears (both types) on the shelf at ihon for exchange...not just some cleaned up pos being pawned off as "rebuilt"! We do now have the parts on hand for doing this!

Thanks for bringing up this subject, I know many of our members and customers will be interested in this item!

 

[Mastiff]

Robert and I discussed this issue by phone today mastiff! I understand that you are now "hooked up" regarding a ross gear!

And...in the future, we're gonna have truly "rebuilt" ross steering gears (both types) on the shelf at ihon for exchange...not just some cleaned up pos being pawned off as "rebuilt"! We do now have the parts on hand for doing this!

Thanks for bringing up this subject, I know many of our members and customers will be interested in this item!

Yup. Hopefully this'll take the last bit of slack out of the system. Is there anything I should be looking at with respect to the steering column "rag joint" equivalent while my box is out? It feels pretty solid, maybe just a touch of slop.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Now I can't remember if Robert said your steering gear is the "large" spline or the "small spline"??? If its the large spline, I've yet to locate a rebuild kit for the bell joint (some refer to that as a "pot" joint since the casting for the bell is zinc). Those joints are significantly larger in size overall, not just the spline diameter.

If it's the small spline, then a rebuild kit for those is readily available, they are not shown in the ihon store but iirc they are on the shelf...a crown part.

I just put one inna Ford bell joint a few months back, the bellows seal will be slightly different than your oem parts that has prolly rotted away, ya can't use the "shim" between the circlip and the rubber seal that May be in your oem joint...but that doesn't matter, the replacement bellows has a steel shim molded in for the clip to bear against.

 

[Mastiff]

How can I tell which one I have? Whatever it is actually still is contained within a rubber boot. I could snap a pic if needed.

now I can't remember if Robert said your steering gear is the "large" spline or the "small spline"??? If its the large spline, I've yet to locate a rebuild kit for the bell joint (some refer to that as a "pot" joint since the casting for the bell is zinc). Those joints are significantly larger in size overall, not just the spline diameter.

If it's the small spline, then a rebuild kit for those is readily available, they are not shown in the ihon store but iirc they are on the shelf...a crown part.

I just put one inna Ford bell joint a few months back, the bellows seal will be slightly different than your oem parts that has prolly rotted away, ya can't use the "shim" between the circlip and the rubber seal that May be in your oem joint...but that doesn't matter, the replacement bellows has a steel shim molded in for the clip to bear against.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Mastiff,
really not an issue untill/if we determine the worm/cam is bad. The other parts in the box are the same.

But if you had a moment it could help other readers.

 

[Mastiff]

Well, here's a picture of what's at the end of the column, whatever it's called. I'm not sure if you can tell anything from this or if I need to tear it down a little more?

 

[Robert Kenney]

That is the small "bell coupler" and that makes your ross box the later small splined version.

The change over occurred around chassis number fc 65510 iirc in 1963 approximately.

Also the steering column was different. Pre 65500 the column outer housing was about 1/2 the inside shaft length and clamped to the fire wall via a bracket and u clamp.

Post fc65510 the column jacket or cover was extended to almost the full length of the inside shaft length and the clamp was eliminated. Only the instrument/dash column clamp and coupler steadied the column.

 

[Michael Mayben]

that is the small "bell coupler" and that makes your ross box the later small splined version.

The change over occurred around chassis number fc 65510 iirc in 1963 approximately.

Also the steering column was different. Pre 65500 the column outer housing was about 1/2 the inside shaft length and clamped to the fire wall via a bracket and u clamp.

Post fc65510 the column jacket or cover was extended to almost the full length of the inside shaft length and the clamp was eliminated. Only the instrument/dash column clamp and coupler steadied the column.

Ditto! Thanks for posting the pic mastiff!

Since this subject has now been broached, let's see what else we can learn!

A couplea my buddies down in the hill country binders, michael and anthony sent me this pic when we discussed a similar issue about a year ago. They had a real mess going on regarding some steering gear and steering column swaparoos amongst various s80 and four cylinder s800 rigs. In this pic, the bell joint on the left is the "big" one. When new, it was originally enclosed in a really nice rubber boot to keep the crap out.

The bell joint on the right is the small one, same as what mastiff has and what I have. This is the easy one to deal with as a rebuild kit for that is readily available.

 

[Mastiff]

Thanks for the good info. So I could Rebuild it, but how do I know if I should? It has only a tiny pit of play. It clicks when I change direction.

Robert, were you saying that I should hold off on anything anyway, pending the checkout of my steering box?

 

[Robert Kenney]

Yea, lets wait untill I get your box torn down and see what is needed to get it back up to snuff.

As for the coupler, disassemble it, clean out the old guck and check it out for wear. The coupler has a pin that is pressed into the column shaft, one small steel block rides on each end. The blocks ride in the bell in grooves. The groovs can wear and the pincan get sloppy. It is possible that the unit simply needs a good cleaning and regreasing.

 

[RobertC]

Have you jacked up the front of the vehicle and had someone turn the steering wheel (or turn the box using the tire) and listened for noise?

I could hear "rumbling" inside the steering box when the worm gear was worn on my corvair...

I just reread the beginning. Since there is "slop" at the housing / output shaft, it does not really matter what is worn inside since you have to take it apart anyway (I think).

Personally, since you have done all the other work, I would have the box rebuilt. (easy for me to say when I keep putting off having another corvair box "rebuilt".)