No Start No Crank No Nothing

mstelle

mstelle

Member
I am running out of ideas and thought I would ask for help from the community…

When I turn the key, nothing happens. I have a new battery and new ignition switch. Battery measures 12.3v currently. I have pulled the starter and bench tested it. It fires right up when I put power to it. I have checked the NSS and found that I do have continuity on the center pin (which should mean it’s fine, right). I have tested for voltage to the starter as well as the ignition coil and alternator. My gauges mostly are dead anyway, but the gas gauge does move when I turn the key. It is about the only sign of life I have found. This problem has been hanging around for a couple weeks now and a few days ago it fired up and ran. Now suddenly the issue is back. Any thoughts on what I am missing or may have to double check?

Thanks!
Mike
 
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There are a lot of places for potential failure of the starting circuitry in a Scout. I generally advise folks to follow the current path from the battery and examine each junction downstream from there for issues. Both battery clamps need to be snug and corrosion free. Ground cable well attached to the engine block. Next step is at the starter solenoid connections. As always, cleanliness and snugness of associated connections are next to Godliness. The small gauge wires at this location suffer from exposure to years of intense heat from close proximity to the exhaust manifold plus grease and grime. The insulation jackets tend to get stiff and brittle. So this is one problem area. There is supposed to be a tin heat shield installed. A lot of times they get lost or damaged over the years. If yours is missing, you should see about sourcing another. Now, you can jump something like a screwdriver or even better, a remote switch between the large battery lug and the small 'S' terminal and the starter motor should crank the engine over. If the key is switched to ON, you should be able to start the engine this way. Next major junction from there is at the firewall bulkhead connector. These are major problem points on Scouts. You can pull the connector apart and examine the terminals. If they're nasty, you'll want to shine them up on both sides of the connector. If the connector has been heat damaged...very common...you'll be faced with bypassing it by making direct connections to all the individual wires one at a time. Since you have an auto, another thing you can try is to move the gear selector out of Park and into Neutral. If the NSS is experiencing intermittent failure, going into Neutral can sometimes get the starter to engage if it wont in Park. There's a three terminal relay under the dash (same as horn relay) known as the neutral start relay. It's part of the NSS. They rarely fail, but rare isn't never. The center pin of the trans mounted NSS provides the momentary ground to complete the circuit in this relay when the gear selector is in either in Park or Neutral. The other two terminals comprise the input and output sides of the start signal from the ignition switch and terminating at the starter 'S' terminal. That's quite a bit for you to rundown in a methodical manner.
 
Scoutboy74 said:
That's quite a bit for you to rundown in a methodical manner.
Click to expand...

I’ve unwrapped most of the wiring so far to try to dig in to the mystery. There are definitely some question marks in there. I have found a wire or two that have voltage but are not connected to anything. I am going to have to trace them back to figure out where they start so I can understand where they’re supposed ti terminate. There are also some new wires spliced in that seem to sprout out of no where. It’s a mess. I’ve spent the last few days studying the wiring diagrams but some of what I am finding doesn’t match the diagram because of changes by the PO.

Am I correct in understanding how to test the NSS? I need to dig into the dash to find that other relay to check it out.

Any other thoughts are welcome.

Thanks,
Mike
 
Are any of the circuit ID numbers still legible? Each wire was numbered at every junction or termination. Sometimes you get lucky and find numbers. Have you tried moving the shifter to Neutral for starter cranking like I suggested? Do you have any power to anything in the cab at all? Headlights? Anything? How about some pictures of what you're looking at.
 
Scoutboy74 said:
Are any of the circuit ID numbers still legible? Each wire was numbered at every junction or termination. Sometimes you get lucky and find numbers. Have you tried moving the shifter to Neutral for starter cranking like I suggested? Do you have any power to anything in the cab at all? Headlights? Anything? How about some pictures of what you're looking at.
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Yes, I tried starting Neutral. No luck. Headlights work. Gas gauge works and some others flicker (most of the gauges don’t work). I got it started a few days ago and I thought it was fixed, then the next time I tried to start it, back to nothing. I’ll see about pics later and checking the ID numbers.

When I tested the starter, I pulled it out and fired it up (connected to battery and jumping the terminals with a screwdriver). Does that tell me both the starter AND solenoid are working, or just the starter? I am wondering if the solenoid is bad and I’m just dancing around it.

Thanks,
Mike
 
It’s definitely a “yeller” 72, but I don’t know about Scooter. Got it from a guy in Texas named Chris. I’m happy to give it a good home and the love it needs.
 
The jump across working means starter and solenoid are good. Connection between batter POS and large solenoid terminal is good. Battery ground is good. Headlights on means main power feed from starter solenoid into cabin via firewall bulkhead connector and Ammeter gauge junction is good. You replaced the column mounted ignition switch, but did you install the correct switch and did you get it adjusted properly? There is more than one switch part to accommodate tilt column Vs. non-tilt column. Both will fit, but only one will work with the column style it is meant for.
 
Scoutboy74 said:
The jump across working means starter and solenoid are good. Connection between batter POS and large solenoid terminal is good. Battery ground is good. Headlights on means main power feed from starter solenoid into cabin via firewall bulkhead connector and Ammeter gauge junction is good. You replaced the column mounted ignition switch, but did you install the correct switch and did you get it adjusted properly? There is more than one switch part to accommodate tilt column Vs. non-tilt column. Both will fit, but only one will work with the column style it is meant for.
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I did get the correct ignition switch. I know this because I originally bought the wrong one and realized the connections are mirror opposites, haha. How do I adjust it? I haven’t seen anything about this. I can hear it click when I turn the key, but that’s all I know.
 
Ok. The click you're hearing in START could well be the NS relay under the dash cycling. The Ign switch has a minor amount of up/down travel where the fastener screws hold it into place, but if you can get a verified engagement that sends power to certain things in ACC on one extreme and at least get a relay click when you twist to START on the other extreme, then it's adjusted. What you need to do is isolate the circuit that runs between the starter 'S' terminal and the NS relay output terminal. It passes through the same firewall bulkhead connector as the main cabin power feed wire does. It's either 16 or 17. I can't remember which off the type of my head. But anyway, you need to see if that wire is being energized at the solenoid 'S' connection when you crank the switch to START position. Might require a helper. Most likely it is not being energized, at least not every time or even most times. So you'll need to back trace that wire to determine where the fault is. That wire is the signal to make the solenoid do it's thing which in turn makes the starter motor do it's thing. Basically a really long screwdriver.
 
Scoutboy74 said:
Ok. The click you're hearing in START could well be the NS relay under the dash cycling.
Click to expand...

Okay, I’m home… popped out the speedometer and dropped the steering column. I am not seeing that NS relay; just the ignition switch. It should be in this neighborhood, if I am not mistaken, but please feel free to correct me if I am looking in the wrong place (pic attached). I’m also trying to sort out some of the spaghetti tornado in here to trace back to the starter.
 

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I think it's just to the right side of the column. Shine a good light up in there to help you see. Just wondering out of curiosity if this may have originally been a standard trans rig converted to auto. Brake pedal can be a tattle tale there as very few go to the trouble of swapping out the pedals when going from manual to auto.
 
Scoutboy74 said:
Just wondering out of curiosity if this may have originally been a standard trans rig converted to auto. Brake pedal can be a tattle tale there as very few go to the trouble of swapping out the pedals when going from manual to auto.
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It’s certainly possible. Here’s a pic of my pedals.

I found this circuit in my manual so I have a better idea of what to look for. Just dealing with a frustrating multimeter at the moment.
 

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Who knows what was done just yet. From the factory, manual equipped Scouts also had the relay, but a jumper wire across two terminals was used. An auto trans could then later be installed with no wiring changes made to the relay, which would enable starter actuation in any shift lever position. Some people like it this way for off-roading, as it allows one to re-fire a stalled engine while on the go in gear. The downside is of course the potential safety hazard in the event of someone other than the owner being behind the wheel and engaging the starter at an inopportune time. The outside pins of the NS switch in the trans are for the reverse lights, so only the middle pin has anything to do with safe starting.
 
So, it looks like whatever was there has been chopped out. The pic attached is the white wire coming from “S” on the ignition switch, wrapped in electrical tape and becomes black. That connects to the connector at the fire wall. That being said, do I need that relay? It started and ran prior to all this, so I am guessing no, but it’s recommended. Now to find what is on the other side of the fire wall.
 

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Good news! I got it. This connector is bad. I chopped the wires and put new connectors in place. It fired up right away. Now I have a sketchy-a$$ fuel pump to deal with. Thanks for your support!!!
 

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