Wayne's Non-oiler 392

Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

Ok so basically my 73 is currently equipped with a 392 that was built by a local machine shop (southworth). I put about 80 miles on it with a brand new model 4150 Holley truck avenger 470, and the motor burned a valve. I had southworth go through the motor again and they could not officially determine the cause, but they thought it was a carb issue. That was about a year ago and I have put about six miles on it since then because I don't want to mess up the motor again until I get the carb and ignition stuff tuned in how it should be. Previously I have had three different edelbrocks on it and two previous Holley's and it doesn't run well. Most of the other carbs were on my built 345 before I burned wholes in the pistons. This truck has been a nightmare but a lifelong dream. So far I am only ten years into it. Any help would be great.

Wayne
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

When ya say "burned holes" in the pistons describe which cylinders (or was it all cylinders). There can be several causes for "holes" but many are related so we're not ready to jump right on that until the big picture is verified!

That is certainly not a common occurance on these very mildly tuned IH sv motors! But let's not start speculating about this until we have facts.

I'm real familiar with southworth and will be using them real soon on my own machine work, their reputation has been built over many years of doing stuff correctly for the commercial operators in the region.

Please describe your ignition system in detail as carefully as ya can. And for the sake of discussion, should I assume the ta 470 carb is set up as it came in the box?

Since you are actually a "neighbor", I'll plan to make a housecall to see what ya got. No charge for that (but ya can buy lunch or the beer!) what you have described is not by any means a typical engine build project!

Was the block decked, the heads surfaced, and the intake manifold properly "cut" if both heads and block had machine work performed? Were the correct pistons used for the head design? Is this an "emissions" motor? Is it an "improved cooling" 392 engine design? What is the cam grind? Was it bored and if so, what oversize? Was the camshaft installed "straight up" regarding it's timing?

Was the core engine a runner before ya had it built? Did it have any history of previous issues?

So what we'll do is verify that it is set up properly first. That's why all the questions. Then if we need to swap around carbs and ignition stuff for testing/diagnostics, I have everything needed for that, most of the time I have a "travel" package of stuff that I can use in dead rig recovery which involves mostly plug and play of peripherals.
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

Ok...that is a lot of questions....but here I go....southworth did the complete motor assembly so that should answer the question of wheather it was assembles correctly whith the right tollerances, I just put the ex. Manifolds on and a carb....I put a used hei from mr Scout in but I don't know anything about it....the 392 I also purchased from mr Scout and it ran when I put it in my truck but emediatly knew it needed work so it came right back out....I believe bore is .30 over and stock style cam and stroke......just to clarify the holes that I burned in the pistons were on all the cylynders, but not all the way through, and that was in my 345 and that motor was also built by southworth on two seperate ocasions, and it had an extreme cam and pertronix standard distributor......the 470 is streight out of the box, before this carb I had the ta 670 on and it went to several shops for tuning but 700 dollars later everyone told me it was too big for my application and they could not choke it down enough. At the end of that I drove it home running worse than when I dropped it off. My 392 is non emissions I believe but I don't know if there are differences between the two motors other than bolt-ons??? I am not sure how the cam was installed in relation to timing...I am more than willing to purchase another carb if I need to to get it running but being a dissabled vet I am on a fixed income so time will tell how it works out....and before we get too far on making dates for get togethers, I am in the process of a complete re-wire and should be done in a few days (I hope). Any more questions, throw them at me and I will do my best to look stupid answering them.

Wayne
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

Now that is the kinda deetale we need wayne! Good job!

And Mike fiock/mr. Scout is a good personal friend and supporter of the IH community as well, in fact... I'll be picking up some pieces from him on Monday to rework for another member of this forum, stuff that ihon didn't have available at the time! He musta called me right after you called me yesterday asking that I help ya out!

There is no reason to not use that ta carb ya have right now! It's real close to being "right" out of the box, and what ain't right can be handled in short order.

The type of piston damage ya describe is usually the result of a "pre-ignition" condition...that is not the same as "detonation/ping", though one condition can sometimes lead to the other. But it's also real easy to prevent and especially in dealing with IH stuff is a total anomaly! And there are many root causes for pre-ignition, so again...we won't speculate about that until we've verified the basics with an on-site inspection!

So you are correct...we will address the ignition system first. Regarding any engine...the ignition system must be dialed in completely before dealing with fuel delivery. My motto: "ignition affects carburetion...carburetion does not affect ignition". That's it inna nutshell.

You let me know when you are ready to have me hook up with ya. My schedule through the end of the year is now wide open, but it seems some of our club members have a plan for us the weekend of nov. 1. Any time during the week is fine also.

I'll have everything with me to look at the deetales, tools, spares, instruments, etc., a reglar travelin' roadshow. Once we we git tha rig up and drivin' reliably, ya can run up here and we'll throw it on one of the two engine analyzers that live here...including that sun 1110 that was set up in mr. Scout's shop until greg snaked it to park here a few weeks ago. That one ain't hardly portable!

Ain't no such thang as stoopid arount here. But there are folks that don't know a whole lot about different stuff! That is exactly why we are here! But...onct we train ya...and ya still act stoopid, then there May be no hope for ya and ya need ta play with 'lectrik cars that are jes' plug and play. Them ain't machinery in my book, just toss 'em into tha recycle pile and go git anutha.

Disabled vet??? Thank you sir for looking out for me dude!
 
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Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

Talked to Mike fiock today about yore situation wayne, you have really had hell with that motor! No way all this stuff is "normal".

We will get it worked out, but we'll also take as much time as needed to get it done up right.
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

I wasn't just tellin stories....I love the look of scouts and would like to learn to love the whole thing! Mike has been there with me since the beggining of this project in 1996.

Wayne
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

Wayne
I am sorry to hear about all the trouble with your 392 and I hope you get it all figured out, I know michael will get it figured out for ya. Please keep us posted on the details and progress of what all you find out.
Good luck, tee jay
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

Mike,
I am ready for the carb trial. My wiring is 90 percent complete and it is up and running. It is running a little better with new wiring so I am sure that some of my problems May have distributor related but I am hoping you will be able to double check that while we are working on it. When is a good time for a get together? I am wide open most of next week unless that is too soon for you.

Wayne baker
541-517-9029
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

Great wayne!

Tomorrow and part of Friday I'm installing a new electrical service entrance onna property I caretake, that should bring in the rain!

I'll be up in sheridan on Saturday and then doing a club-related trail run on Sunday, be home Sunday nite.

We can get together most any time the week of nov. 3, except nov. 6 which is IHSTO club meeting nite up in silverton. I pretty much keep everything needed for "house calls" in the beater truck all the time.

Now that I know you are up, I'll give ya a call prolly tomorrow (Thursday) and get the details!
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

I left a vmail for ya this moring wayne after missing your call.

Prolly haveta bail on workin' yore rig this week as I'm camped at riverbend peace health for the next few days!

I'll stay in touch and let ya know when I'll be able ta make the house call!
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

Lookin' like I can make it over the hill and into yore valley this coming week wayne!

I'll call ya tomorrow (Monday) and we'll discuss the best time to visit.
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

Wayne and I finally hooked up at his place, he's gotta full shop nicely equipped and definitely "knows stuff"!!!! His wife and kiddo were an extra added attraction! And on veteran's day no less!

Anyway...we now have a plan. Seems a preliminary listen to the motor with my very poor quality ears sez we May have a significant rocker assembly lubrication issue! That sound familiar??

This motor is fresh as a daizee but ain't been run since being built since it'sa dawg too! And I can tell from the sound the timing is way retarded (it's got onena them problematic hei conversions in the hole and I don't think it's stabbed correctly, can't be rotated to get the timing in where it needs to be.

So now the plan is...we'll start from scratch validating the rocker system lube deal. We're pretty sure that the engine builder installed the rocker shafts upside down and also did not service 'em during the build. Motor's got that same "squeek" that tren long described in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/carb-tech/739-rebuilding-2300-list-2977-carb.html

This motor has already tossed a pushrod, the builder blamed that on a "bad valve" (that's total bullshit, the valve stuck because of lack of lubrication!!!). All this onna motor with under 100 miles??? And then also blamed the carb???

So next Tuesday wayne will jerk the hei out and set it aside, and pop the passenger side valve cover. Then we'll install the prelube system and verify valve train lubrication from the beginning on both sides. I'll also take along two fresh rocker assemblies (welded type) for substitutions. Wayne remembers the builder telling him they turned the wore out rocker shafts upside down so they could be re-used!!?? That means...none of the rockers are oiling, likewise the valve stems, valve tips, and pushrod sockets ain't oilin' either!!!

Once that's worked out, we'll stick inna Holley points distributor with a p-tron conversion that I'll freshen for wayne, that way we can set the timing correctly. After the motor is healthy again, then we'll deal with fixin' the hei so it'll go in the hole like it oughtta.

Last of all, the carb will be dialed in for this motor and the rig can be put into dd service for the first time in many years...it'sa family heirloom!
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

We made sum excellent progress on wayne's motor yestidy!

He had it all stripped down and prepped when I got there, ready to determine if the valve train was lubin'!

Right off I pointed out that the rocker shafts had been installed by the engine builder upside down for the nine stand/welded-type rocker system. How kin ya tell just by lookin'??

A welded rocker assembly has a "notch" ground into the rocker shaft on each end. Those are witness marks. When the rocker assembly is installed to the head, those marks must be in the up position! That places the oil spit holes for each rocker arm bushing in proper position so that oil May be distributed throughout the bushing, and then emerge into that groove in the rocker where the two halves come together. Oil then travels through that groove to both the push rod tip and the valve tip.

This shot shows the witness Mark on one end of the shaft, it's installed upside down! This is root cause of the non-oiling rocker system that I previously suspected based upon the history of this motor that wayne related.
 

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Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

So that wayne could better understand how this lube system works, we next installed the oil pump drive, rotated the crank and camshaft so that oil was directed from the #4 cam bearing to the rocker shaft on the passenger side, and started the drill motor.

Oil could be seen running out of the bottom of the rocker shaft at each rocker arm and right back down to the crankcase through the drainback channel. But no oil could be forced through the bushing and out onto the rocker arms themselves. This would lead to eventual seizing (or as some say "sticking") of random valves in their guides due to lack of lubrication. Once a valve stuck in the "open" position, then the pushrod could jump out and either bend or break after colliding with adjacent rocker arms. This is exactly what happened to this motor right after wayne got it running after the first rebuild. When he returned the motor to the builder, they told him it had "burned a valve" due to faulty carburetion. That is where the "help with the 470 Holley carb" issue came from!

This is a non-oiling rocker system! But is not caused by a failed cam bearing.
 

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Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

Just to make certain that the lube system was delivering oil to the "oiler" rocker stand, we removed the botched rocker assembly and set it aside.

Then an oil pressure gauge was inserted into the oil port which feeds the rocker shaft from the #4 cam bearing. Immediately upon firing up the drill motor to spin the pump (1250rpm), oil pressure was noted.
 

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Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

And here's the resulting oil pressure reading at the spit hole! Purdeee dam guud!

Remember, it's very tedious to place the camshaft in the exact location to allow the oil feed through the #4 journal to properly align so that oil May flow to this point. We turned the crankshaft in approximate 10 degree increments until oil pressure was seen and then stopped rotation!
 

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Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

Once wayne could fully understand the big picture here, we did the exact same procedure on the driver side. And yes, the rocker shaft was installed upside down too!

We next partially disassembled both rocker shafts so that we could see the "wear/damage" that the engine builder claimed the shafts showed.

I'll be dam...the shafts are as close to new as I've ever seen...no sign of any kind of wear!

So...the engine builder bullshitted about that point also, tha bastards just put the shafts in upside down 'cause they didn't know what tha hail they were doin'!

But...the retaining bolts had been grossly overtightened which badly distorts the aluminum rocker stands. Rather than screwin' with fixin' that issue and floppin' the shafts, I had already prepped two fresh nine stand rocker assemblies so we could jest drop 'em on and then check for proper oiling.

All nine retaining bolts were gooped with hylomar to seal the threads and dropped in place. I like to leave the pushrods out of position when doing this so that ya don't have to do the push rod engagement tap dance using three hands to assemble! Once the stands are snugged into position, then I have a "tool" that we use to go back and compress each valve in turn and set the push rods in place. In fact I'd recently fabbed a new tool that I thought would work better, but it was a miserable failure so I'll keep working on that!
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

We next scruud away about an hour trying ta git the rocker shafts to fill with oil from the pump driven by the drill motor. After kickin' our azzez around tha shop for awhile 'cause it wouldn't oil, wayne had the bright idear of adding one more quart of oil since he'd changed the juice just before I got there. Guess what...it was a quart low and the pump would not pick up (we'd pumped about a half quart on the shop floor when I moved the cutaway valve cover too soon!)

that did the trick, now tha bitch will flood the rocker shafts real nice, just like cyrus mccormick intended!

By then we wuz both gittin' kinda hungry and whooped so we decided ta call it a night. The bastard hei distributor that had been contributing to this no-run issue has tons of end play and slop in the mechanical advance unit. So for now it was shitcanned and I'll attempt a rebuild at some point. It is not a dui unit and from what I can see, it's impossible to install correctly if the oem Scout II water neck is retained.

So I left a really fresh Holley distributor with wayne's pertronix conversion in it to stick in the hole. Then I packed up and went home, forgetting to leave the coil I had set up for this temp install with wayne. We talked tonite, wayne has stabbed and wired the distributor and we'll stick a coil on it tomorrow afternoon and then light tha bitch up again! The cutaway valve cover will be left in place on one side so we can watch her oil while running.

Then we'll power time the sparkpump, tweek the carb, and see what happens.

After all this and 10 years, wayne found another sii rallye that's comin' ta live at hiz house in the next few days. It's been settin' for years so now he gits to do the engine pre-lube dance all over again and hope the cam bearings ain't glued 'emselves to the cam journals!
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

We haven't done anymore with wayne's motor this past week. But we have come up with what should be the root cause of the issue. Wayne was gonna pop the pan off and verify when he gets time.

He sent me home with an oil pump and pickup which he said (and so does the tag from the engine builder) that the stuff is from the swapped-in 392 truck motor. But what I have...is a pump and pickup from a sii with a doublehump oil pan! So that means the pump and pickup that the builder put in the motor has the 392 truck pump and pickup! No freakin' wonder it ain't oilin'...there is no oil in the front sump to pick up except when the drill motor turns the pump at only 500 rpm or so!

That is why it will oil from the drill motor but not when the pump is driven at crank speed, it's sukkin' air!

Hopefully we can wrap this leetle deetale up this week and santeeclaws can use wayne's ride for the first time in ten years!
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

More positive progress on wayne's non-oiler motor!

He got it all buttoned up last week after verifying that the oil pump and pump "float" (IH terminology) was the correct stuff for a Scout II app with a double hump oil pan. So we discarded that theory after eyeballlin' the setup.

The only thing that might have impacted the "air sukkin" (non-oiling) situation May have been an "o" ring on the pickup not seating correctly.

Once it was back together and oil tossed back in, tha bitch started oilin' again when the motor was runnin'. Not exactly a heavy flooding like I expect to see, but certainly in a quantity to lubricate the valve train in the appropriate manner. And now the lifter galleries are flooding properly also, that was not happening prior to removing the pan for a looksee.

I do know from past experience that there are two different "float" assemblies that were used in double hump sii pans, one is exactly an inch "deeper" than the other. But I can't find my pics of the comparison I did several years ago. This would definitely be affected by the quantity of oil in the pan also. This anomaly is not addressed in researching the parts lists, but then, there are many areas that are not definable through the use of the IH-produced parts lists, changes were addressed through the use of bulletins, without those bulletins, many areas are gonna remain an unknown until someone can come up with a complete set of bulletins issued over the years.

The "short" float/pickup May have been used with the double hump pan that did not have a drain plug in the front, shallow sump. But this is just a guess on my part since I don't have any firsthand info regarding that.

Also, there is much contradiction regarding dip sticks, dip stick tubes, etc. Spread over all the variations of the sv motors as used in the multiple platforms. Part number mismatch cannot be verified through the use of the parts lists since the illustrations are not even close to accurate for application, and the part number info is ambiguous also. Combine that with the "change" that occurred in actual oil volume used in the sii motors due to the high rpm "starvation" issue, and it's no wonder that we have such a hard time figgerin' out what's what!

Wayne's motor now "sounds" outstanding (with absolutely no change in carburetion), and because he's shimmed the oil pump relief valve, the oil pressure is kinda "abnormal" and doesn't really react in the normal fashion as the engine and oil reaches full temp. There are other ways of dealing with this issue and we might get into that in the future, but for now I'm pronouncing the motor healthy and drivable.

We're gonna leave the carb and ignition system alone for now until we can do an extensive road test session and performance check. That needs to be done in my shop using the engine analyzer.

Wayne has the entire floor pf the rig now removed for replacement, it's a bit drafty in there! So it's not drivable as such. But he's done a tremendous amount of work on the sheetmetal over the last month and I bet we'll be driving in some fashion soon! Once the forward portion of the floor is in place, he can throw the seat back in and we can drive it. For now, he'll keep running the motor in the shop periodically, though it's now a few years old, it's certainly not broken in yet! Only has about 100 miles or less since all the shit hit the fan! The cutaway valve cover will remain on the motor so that lube action can continue to be observed.

So turns out the "carb" issue that the engine builder blamed all the problems on, dam shore ain't got nuthin' to do with what has transpired! And we now know who not to have work on IH motor builds in our local market!

Once we get to the carb dial-in phase, we'll start another thread to reflect that. This thread will be moved to the "engine" forum now!

This has been a great learning experience (though costly!!!) for wayne, and I've dam shore lernt more stuff myself! And we've worked side-by-side in improving and verifying our engine lubrication system diagnostics! Wayne's a great dude to work with, too bad we didn't hook up years ago! Thanks to Jeff and Mike fiock for gettin' us together!
 
Re: Wayne's Holley 470 Truck Avenger

One more engine-related item that wayne learned...

Last week he came up to my shop and was looking at a 345 I've got torn down on the stand. He was surprised to see the same "holes" in the pistons in that engine, that he'd seen in his original 345.

When I explained that those holes were actually casting "dimples" used as witness marks on the pistons, he realized he'd been shined on by the engine builder regarding the "holes in the pistons" deal!!!!! Same as the "burnt valve" that was actually a stuck valve and bent push rod!

So now we gotta plan to refurbish his 345 with the holes in the pistons that aren't holes! It's already onna stand so that buildup has been added to the agenda.

Oh well...let's move on, another lesson lernt!
 
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