jauringer
Member
Thank you sir.
Other thing, Holley indicates to set a center hung float bowl by making it's bottom surface of the float parallel with the bottom cast surface.
Is that as precise as it gets for a dry setting?
Time to save this block!
- Thread starter jauringer
- Start date
Thank you sir.
Other thing, Holley indicates to set a center hung float bowl by making it's bottom surface of the float parallel with the bottom cast surface.
Is that as precise as it gets for a dry setting?
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Yes, as only the witness hole is the accurate method.
It's close enough to run well enough to do the cam bedding in run.
It's close enough to run well enough to do the cam bedding in run.
jauringer
Member
What up all! It's getting that time of year again down here in texas. Weather's been perfect for a cruise in a topless Scout the last couple days. Hopefully we can keep it like this for while this year.
Well, there's been some more work done, we've got a running engine to go with it :d
here's a few recent pictures. I threw the engine stand together with as much scrap/ spare parts as I could and broke in Matt's engine.
Basic gauge setup w/ tach, volt, oil pressure, water temp. Also installed a remote start solenoid, battery and coil kill switch.
Black switch on the bottom left is the wideband o2 power, the green light is the idiot light for the alt (only color light I had left).
It still lacks an electric fan as well as a tray for the gas can.
Spare wideband controller and a nice little jerry rigging of the exhaust connection.
Here's a profile. I used a tiny air cleaner to give me better access to the carb. I broke it in without the alt but then later wired it in to check it's operation. It's was just rebuild by a local shop for something like $45. They even sandblasted and painted the oe case. Works perfect. The small gray box around one of the spark plug wires is an alternate tach hookup for that gauge.
Here's a couple just after inspection of the lifter bore, lifter rotation, and top end oiling.
Preparation was quite thorough as we went through all the wiring with a multimeter, verified plug wiring and connections, verified distributor phasing, battery charge, fuel level in fuel bowl, and tried to eliminate as much air as possible from the cooling system. Then we pre-oiled the holy hell out of it and stabbed the distributor at ~5 btdc (compression stroke) on the #8 cylinder. This all netted a very uneventful break-in. Everything went according to plan and the engine ran for 30+ minutes without skipping a beat.
Immediately after break in we shut her down and changed the oil and filter. For the engine build, I used all Joe gibbs.. The assembly grease on the cam lobes, distributor gear, lifter base, and timing gears; the high viscosity lubricant on the valvetrain, bearings, lifter bores, just about everything else. We broke it in with the 10w30 break in oil, followed by the conventional 10w30 hot rod oil. Matt will run this oil for the next 500 miles.
Matt is a private pilot so his traveling has given me the time
to run the engine a little more, tune the carb, adjust idle, set timing, as well as run several other tests inspections before it goes back into the truck.
It's still very early but I have done quite a bit of inspection and testing on this engine since the break in. That along with a relatively good knowledge of the typical sv, there are a couple observations I've made that I feel very comfortable stating at this time.
1st and foremost, no, oil pressure is not inline with a small block Chevy now. She's not idling at a 40psi or something nuts like that.
She idles at a steady 15 psi based on an a new sunpro gauge (what ever that means) fully warmed up after a pretty good session through the rev range. She's just under 50psi fully warmed @ 2000 rpm and by the time I crest 2500-2700 rpm she's limiting out @ just under 60psi. Her continued climb into the upper portions of the rpm range seems the most interesting to me regarding oil pressure.
The two most interesting observations thus far have been:
1. As as much clearance as we eliminated at the lifter bores, if it's not showing up as a large increase in oil pressure it's got to be going somewhere. Well, I can say with confidence that the majority of it has gone to the heads. The amount of oil this engine is sending to the valvetrain is without a doubt an improvement over stock. My half cut valve covers quite helping at just over idle now and I can make a mess of the place without even trying. Thankfully I did chamfer the oil returns back to the valley, plus I'll recommend that he continues to run at least a half a qrt over full.
2. Lifter stability has improved dramatically. Lifter and pushrod rotation is much more pronounced and at a much quicker rate. I think this will provide him great benefits in the lifter/cam wear department.
The last thing I'll say about it at this point (just an opinion here) is the engine is much more well balanced for choosing the proper oil. We build these engine closing up all tolerances on the bottom end then leave the top end in it's stock, leaking like a siv form. When we do that, I feel like we're seperating the engine into two halves, both with two different requirements for oil viscosity. The bottom half May want 10w30 where the top half wants 20w50. Yes, this May be over thinking it a little but you can't deny the imbalance in the engine afterwards. My next step going forward is to figure out a way to create a more stable top end oiling system. We're very lucky to have shaft mounted rocker assemblies but it's a fact that they leak terribly in several areas. I can't imagine how much the bolt holes and stands leak all by them selves. It's no where near a closed system up top imo.
Last but not least was the break-in filter cutting ceremony. I finally invested in a real cutter so I didn't have to decipher between cut off wheel shavings and the rest. I followed the procedures that an airplane mechanic recorded on the net and cut the filter material in short sections, spread it out and sprayed them out with break cleaner into a bowl, then filtered it all through a blue shop towel. It's a much easier way to get an overall look at the situation. You can even fold it over and label it for later comparison. It was a refreshing site to see as there were zero non-ferous metals that I could find. From the filter and bore inspection, our bushed bores broke in very nice. Here's a pic for you below. I made the mistake of stirring the solution going through the filter so I made a little "fuz" at the bottom. This is with flash on so hopefully all the little "sparkles" will come through.
That's all for now folks but at this point I've found no reason to delay putting this engine back in Matt's beast and letting it rip! I'll of course be monitoring the situation and have insisted that he install mechanical gauges for both oil pressure and water temp. Other than the engine, this is a very stock build so he doesn't want them visible. They'll be hidden in the engine bay somewhere next to his toilet paper filter for regular monitoring and recording baselines.
I will continue to update this thread as we progress along.
Jason
Well, there's been some more work done, we've got a running engine to go with it :d
here's a few recent pictures. I threw the engine stand together with as much scrap/ spare parts as I could and broke in Matt's engine.
Basic gauge setup w/ tach, volt, oil pressure, water temp. Also installed a remote start solenoid, battery and coil kill switch.
Black switch on the bottom left is the wideband o2 power, the green light is the idiot light for the alt (only color light I had left).
It still lacks an electric fan as well as a tray for the gas can.
Spare wideband controller and a nice little jerry rigging of the exhaust connection.
Here's a profile. I used a tiny air cleaner to give me better access to the carb. I broke it in without the alt but then later wired it in to check it's operation. It's was just rebuild by a local shop for something like $45. They even sandblasted and painted the oe case. Works perfect. The small gray box around one of the spark plug wires is an alternate tach hookup for that gauge.
Here's a couple just after inspection of the lifter bore, lifter rotation, and top end oiling.
Preparation was quite thorough as we went through all the wiring with a multimeter, verified plug wiring and connections, verified distributor phasing, battery charge, fuel level in fuel bowl, and tried to eliminate as much air as possible from the cooling system. Then we pre-oiled the holy hell out of it and stabbed the distributor at ~5 btdc (compression stroke) on the #8 cylinder. This all netted a very uneventful break-in. Everything went according to plan and the engine ran for 30+ minutes without skipping a beat.
Immediately after break in we shut her down and changed the oil and filter. For the engine build, I used all Joe gibbs.. The assembly grease on the cam lobes, distributor gear, lifter base, and timing gears; the high viscosity lubricant on the valvetrain, bearings, lifter bores, just about everything else. We broke it in with the 10w30 break in oil, followed by the conventional 10w30 hot rod oil. Matt will run this oil for the next 500 miles.
Matt is a private pilot so his traveling has given me the time
to run the engine a little more, tune the carb, adjust idle, set timing, as well as run several other tests inspections before it goes back into the truck.
It's still very early but I have done quite a bit of inspection and testing on this engine since the break in. That along with a relatively good knowledge of the typical sv, there are a couple observations I've made that I feel very comfortable stating at this time.
1st and foremost, no, oil pressure is not inline with a small block Chevy now. She's not idling at a 40psi or something nuts like that.
She idles at a steady 15 psi based on an a new sunpro gauge (what ever that means) fully warmed up after a pretty good session through the rev range. She's just under 50psi fully warmed @ 2000 rpm and by the time I crest 2500-2700 rpm she's limiting out @ just under 60psi. Her continued climb into the upper portions of the rpm range seems the most interesting to me regarding oil pressure.
The two most interesting observations thus far have been:
1. As as much clearance as we eliminated at the lifter bores, if it's not showing up as a large increase in oil pressure it's got to be going somewhere. Well, I can say with confidence that the majority of it has gone to the heads. The amount of oil this engine is sending to the valvetrain is without a doubt an improvement over stock. My half cut valve covers quite helping at just over idle now and I can make a mess of the place without even trying. Thankfully I did chamfer the oil returns back to the valley, plus I'll recommend that he continues to run at least a half a qrt over full.
2. Lifter stability has improved dramatically. Lifter and pushrod rotation is much more pronounced and at a much quicker rate. I think this will provide him great benefits in the lifter/cam wear department.
The last thing I'll say about it at this point (just an opinion here) is the engine is much more well balanced for choosing the proper oil. We build these engine closing up all tolerances on the bottom end then leave the top end in it's stock, leaking like a siv form. When we do that, I feel like we're seperating the engine into two halves, both with two different requirements for oil viscosity. The bottom half May want 10w30 where the top half wants 20w50. Yes, this May be over thinking it a little but you can't deny the imbalance in the engine afterwards. My next step going forward is to figure out a way to create a more stable top end oiling system. We're very lucky to have shaft mounted rocker assemblies but it's a fact that they leak terribly in several areas. I can't imagine how much the bolt holes and stands leak all by them selves. It's no where near a closed system up top imo.
Last but not least was the break-in filter cutting ceremony. I finally invested in a real cutter so I didn't have to decipher between cut off wheel shavings and the rest. I followed the procedures that an airplane mechanic recorded on the net and cut the filter material in short sections, spread it out and sprayed them out with break cleaner into a bowl, then filtered it all through a blue shop towel. It's a much easier way to get an overall look at the situation. You can even fold it over and label it for later comparison. It was a refreshing site to see as there were zero non-ferous metals that I could find. From the filter and bore inspection, our bushed bores broke in very nice. Here's a pic for you below. I made the mistake of stirring the solution going through the filter so I made a little "fuz" at the bottom. This is with flash on so hopefully all the little "sparkles" will come through.
That's all for now folks but at this point I've found no reason to delay putting this engine back in Matt's beast and letting it rip! I'll of course be monitoring the situation and have insisted that he install mechanical gauges for both oil pressure and water temp. Other than the engine, this is a very stock build so he doesn't want them visible. They'll be hidden in the engine bay somewhere next to his toilet paper filter for regular monitoring and recording baselines.
I will continue to update this thread as we progress along.
Jason
Last edited:
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Good job jason!
Fyi the oil pressures you have posted are very good for 10-30. The 50-60 tells me you have not reached full oil temp.. Probably needs to be loaded to make enough heat..
Also the typical stock like new sbc will only make 15-20 psi at hot idle and most see 10-15 hot oil temp (180-190*f)
I assume the valve train is quiet?
Fyi the oil pressures you have posted are very good for 10-30. The 50-60 tells me you have not reached full oil temp.. Probably needs to be loaded to make enough heat..
Also the typical stock like new sbc will only make 15-20 psi at hot idle and most see 10-15 hot oil temp (180-190*f)
I assume the valve train is quiet?
jauringer
Member
That sounds very reasonable Robert. I bet you're right on the upper op.
I don't know that I have enough time on it to make any definitive statements, but I will say this. I have walked out every single morning and fired it up. I have yet to hear a single second of lifter clatter. No noise afterwards either.
I'm currently in beavers bend for the week but when I get back I'll see if I can make a clear video of start up.
It will be 4 days sitting w/ a higher lift cam and a little heavier spring pressure. That will certainly be the ultimate cold start up test.
I would be very surprised if I didn't at least hear a few seconds of it after sitting that long but should be a fun test anyway.
Jason
jauringer
Member
Well, my attempt to capture specific footage of this engine as mentioned was a complete fail! I called Matt over yesterday and told him the plan was to capture his engine firing up after 4 full days of sitting. Only thing we had to do was setup the camera, prepare the engine for the best chance to start quickly and turn the key. The second was my main concern as I didn't want the starter turning excessively, pumping oil to the lifters before it started. Of course I've been an TBI guy for quite some time now so I just turn the key when I'm ready. (that should read as I'm an idiot with manual choked carbs.)
I set the manual choke lever to the same setting I had every morning the week before when it fired right up. I then applied two full pumps of the carbs throttle with it. (it took me a bit to remember that I did this when trying to figure out what I had done wrong. That's only about 1.5 more than what I had been doing. A weeks vacation will do that to you). It did fire quickly but was in a fuel soaked, choking stumble that I couldn't ever get out off. While my brain was in a frenzy trying to figure how to get the black smoke to stop, Matt was standing right in position going above and beyond in his duties. 1.wait for clatter,2. Count clatter. Good job Matt! (that's what you want in a pilot)
all that said, we can definitively say:
1. At a little over 96 hours sitting cold, with a pan temp of 53.4 degrees f, this engine made the typical cold start lifter clatter for two (2) full seconds in a flooded, coughing, stumbling cold start scenario!
2. Two full strokes with a Holley 4412 is like peeing down your intake with a fuel filled bladder.
3. An automatic choke might be more my/our style.
So, in the event anyone needed data on this specific situation, you're welcome.
I was very disappointed to say the least and I demanded a redo in a voice that I can only imagine was comparable to my 7 year old daughter after dropping her ice cream cone.
If you're wondering, there will be no posting of this footage unless it wins me $10k on america's funnies home videos. It was all a blur but I'd be willing to bet I turned it into an r rated movie within the first two seconds. Matt still doesn't have his engine back so I've got leverage on him right now.
We'll try this again in the truck with an automatic choke and a gas pedal.
I set the manual choke lever to the same setting I had every morning the week before when it fired right up. I then applied two full pumps of the carbs throttle with it. (it took me a bit to remember that I did this when trying to figure out what I had done wrong. That's only about 1.5 more than what I had been doing. A weeks vacation will do that to you). It did fire quickly but was in a fuel soaked, choking stumble that I couldn't ever get out off. While my brain was in a frenzy trying to figure how to get the black smoke to stop, Matt was standing right in position going above and beyond in his duties. 1.wait for clatter,2. Count clatter. Good job Matt! (that's what you want in a pilot)
all that said, we can definitively say:
1. At a little over 96 hours sitting cold, with a pan temp of 53.4 degrees f, this engine made the typical cold start lifter clatter for two (2) full seconds in a flooded, coughing, stumbling cold start scenario!
2. Two full strokes with a Holley 4412 is like peeing down your intake with a fuel filled bladder.
3. An automatic choke might be more my/our style.
So, in the event anyone needed data on this specific situation, you're welcome.
I was very disappointed to say the least and I demanded a redo in a voice that I can only imagine was comparable to my 7 year old daughter after dropping her ice cream cone.
If you're wondering, there will be no posting of this footage unless it wins me $10k on america's funnies home videos. It was all a blur but I'd be willing to bet I turned it into an r rated movie within the first two seconds. Matt still doesn't have his engine back so I've got leverage on him right now.
We'll try this again in the truck with an automatic choke and a gas pedal.
jauringer
Member
Oh, the mythical character of mine known as 'Matt' finally came to life!
Mr. Lugnutz78 is the owner of this bushed 304 and the 77 SSII it calls home.
You might as well introduce yourself. When the 90 second/90 feet warranty runs out you'll need somewhere to go and ask questions.
jason
Mr. Lugnutz78 is the owner of this bushed 304 and the 77 SSII it calls home.
You might as well introduce yourself. When the 90 second/90 feet warranty runs out you'll need somewhere to go and ask questions.
jason
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Hey jason, thanks for putting ln78's post in context.
Matt, welcome to our little world..
Matt, welcome to our little world..
hey jason, thanks for putting ln78's post in context.
Matt, welcome to our little world..
Thank ya sir... And thanks for all the help!
jauringer
Member
Wow, almost 3 months since my last post. I hope all has been well in the IHPA world! I recently acquired (and rebuilding) a 79 powermatic mill-rite vertical mill that's temporarily diverted my obsessive personality from all things IH. It's a nice piece of home shop machinery, very similar to a bridgeport but @ ~75 percent of it's scale. It's certainly puts things in perspective, the tolerances on this thing make engine work seem like grand canyon numbers.
Anyway, I guess I need to wind this thread down appropriately. There were two additions to the engine before it went back in to Matt's truck.
1. Peace-out to the holly 4412, hello to the Holley 2300, 0-7448 w/ electric choke. It's already been established that I'm no carb guru but the 4412 just never seemed to fit the application well. . too much fuel at start up and way to much fuel just off idle . the giant 50cc accelerator pump diaphragm just dumps fuel too . the 2300 bumped up to 63 jets fit this engine very good . the electric choke for this carb is certainly not perfect but does work well after plugging the coil vent so it releases as it should .
2 . we added a set of 8mm magnacor plug wires . very substantial, very well made wires . I imagine these will still be running when Matt's kids are driving the Scout around .
once Matt's flight schedule jived with my work schedule, we put the engine back in the truck and wired her up . the first drive was a blast, we drove the piss out that tuck . we did get a little lucky with the cam . I don't know that we could have found a more suitable one anywhere . that schneider is still producing almost 18hg of vacuum @ just under 8.6:1 cr . it's performance range fits this truck to a "t" . I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this cam to anyone w/ a 304 + a cr bump, assuming typical driving habits .
the engine itself is very quite at highway speeds . not even a comparison to mine . all you can hear are the, maybe 1 step up from stock replacement mufflers......and I mean that . amazingly quite . this is SSII, no doors, no hard top or even an extra coating on the firewall .
this deal was very stressful at times for me but seeing Matt's smile as he drives his family heirloom made it all worth it . there May not be many scenarios where bushing the lifter bores are chosen over an nos block but in this case it was and it clearly can be done successfully without special equipment . as far as me and bushed lifter bores go, this is only the beginning . I can assure you that I will be doing this again soon along with a few other ideas .
cleaning up the overall install process is what I want to work on first . the oil holes being the worst part . other makes have jigs and such that make this process very simple . I think that would be my first step in simplifying the process .
lastly, I made a video just after installing the new carb . it was an attempt to redeem myself from the first try so I'll try and post it below . it isn't professional or even that exciting so watch as much as you can stand . I'm not a video editor so you get the whole thing .
I'll tell ya, I knew I was just your typical texas hick, but after listening to this video...wow . I thought only other people sounded like that!
Robert as usual, you are the man . can't thank you enough for sticking with me on this one .
jason
it says I still have an hour of uploading left so check back if still isn't showing .
IH 304 rebuild (bushed lifter bores) just after Holley 2300 install - youtube
Anyway, I guess I need to wind this thread down appropriately. There were two additions to the engine before it went back in to Matt's truck.
1. Peace-out to the holly 4412, hello to the Holley 2300, 0-7448 w/ electric choke. It's already been established that I'm no carb guru but the 4412 just never seemed to fit the application well. . too much fuel at start up and way to much fuel just off idle . the giant 50cc accelerator pump diaphragm just dumps fuel too . the 2300 bumped up to 63 jets fit this engine very good . the electric choke for this carb is certainly not perfect but does work well after plugging the coil vent so it releases as it should .
2 . we added a set of 8mm magnacor plug wires . very substantial, very well made wires . I imagine these will still be running when Matt's kids are driving the Scout around .
once Matt's flight schedule jived with my work schedule, we put the engine back in the truck and wired her up . the first drive was a blast, we drove the piss out that tuck . we did get a little lucky with the cam . I don't know that we could have found a more suitable one anywhere . that schneider is still producing almost 18hg of vacuum @ just under 8.6:1 cr . it's performance range fits this truck to a "t" . I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this cam to anyone w/ a 304 + a cr bump, assuming typical driving habits .
the engine itself is very quite at highway speeds . not even a comparison to mine . all you can hear are the, maybe 1 step up from stock replacement mufflers......and I mean that . amazingly quite . this is SSII, no doors, no hard top or even an extra coating on the firewall .
this deal was very stressful at times for me but seeing Matt's smile as he drives his family heirloom made it all worth it . there May not be many scenarios where bushing the lifter bores are chosen over an nos block but in this case it was and it clearly can be done successfully without special equipment . as far as me and bushed lifter bores go, this is only the beginning . I can assure you that I will be doing this again soon along with a few other ideas .
cleaning up the overall install process is what I want to work on first . the oil holes being the worst part . other makes have jigs and such that make this process very simple . I think that would be my first step in simplifying the process .
lastly, I made a video just after installing the new carb . it was an attempt to redeem myself from the first try so I'll try and post it below . it isn't professional or even that exciting so watch as much as you can stand . I'm not a video editor so you get the whole thing .
I'll tell ya, I knew I was just your typical texas hick, but after listening to this video...wow . I thought only other people sounded like that!
Robert as usual, you are the man . can't thank you enough for sticking with me on this one .
jason
it says I still have an hour of uploading left so check back if still isn't showing .
IH 304 rebuild (bushed lifter bores) just after Holley 2300 install - youtube
Last edited:
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Glad it worked out well for you and Matt.
Sounds very nice and quiet.
Sounds very nice and quiet.
Mark Pietz
Member
Nice sounding engine! Did you have it balanced? Can't see any vibration.
I apologize for taking so long, ya would think that I would have been more diligent, but dealing with work issues.
I can not express the appreciation for the work jason has done!
Not only did he do such a great job, he was patient enough to teach me a lot of stuff. Looking back, methinks that May have been the biggest headache lol
thanks to you guys as well for expertise posted on this project!
Kinda hard to explain the feeling of driving the very vehicle that brought you home from the hospital when you were born, and now knowing that it is running like it should
I can not express the appreciation for the work jason has done!
Not only did he do such a great job, he was patient enough to teach me a lot of stuff. Looking back, methinks that May have been the biggest headache lol
thanks to you guys as well for expertise posted on this project!
Kinda hard to explain the feeling of driving the very vehicle that brought you home from the hospital when you were born, and now knowing that it is running like it should