The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

[Michael Mayben]

I'm declaring 2009 the "year of the IH fourbanger".

In honor of that occasion, Robert has proposed investigatin' a stroker 152 buildup. He's gotta spare layin' around, I got two of 'em. So between us we should have about all the chunks we need ta git started.

What's proposed is marryin' a 196 crank witha 152 block and see what happens. Prolly won't be all IH guts since Robert's got sum weirdazz idear about using kohler rods from four cub cadets in the mix, set up with them dam glass bearings from bearing tech that'll make it spin sumthin' like 14,000rpm. So he'll have to throw up all tha whizzbang schnizz about this secret plan. Then I'll just copy what he does and plagarize the hail outta the deal and take all the credit for the smarts.

So hang around here and see what kinda stoopid shit we kin git into scruuin' over two motors at tha same time.

And Robert, I gayrondamteeya dave will do a pair of heads, I'll just tell him we're doin' a set for a single 304 for practice! He's talkin' converting to solid lifters using the same setup as he did for dale jr.'s nascar motors using IH hydralifters, and fabbin' welded rocker arms into adjustables using early hemi rocker tips. But I like them slippery lifters yore talkin' alot better! We can git terry to do sum glass bearings for those too!

Here's a shot of the donor shitball I'll be usin':

 

[Robert Kenney]

Like michael said I have some pretty different ideas for the direction of my build. All thought I am fairly sure no lawn mower of tractor parts will be involved, I'll leave those for michael and dave to try.

my basic plans are to utilize all off the shelf performance parts to keep costs down so others can do the same thing if they want. This includes pistons, rods, rocker arms valves etc. If no easily available parts can be matched I May have to resort to designing my own and having them made which will drive the cost way up.
I think my build May be to far out of the norm to be usefull on ihon, so I might leave this thread for michael's build. We will have to see how the teardown and measurment stage goes before I will know


this May become the tale of 8 cylinders or a sorta "4 banger build off". I will put my motor on a dyno and make some pulls with it. So we will have some numbers to bs over.

below is my doner engine. It came out of my 65 and has never been opened up except for me to replace rod and main bearings.
Will be interesting to see the cam bearings as I had a sticky valve problem that I chocked up to bad gas but mm May see this differently.
Always oiled fine and problem went away after draining the fuel and purging the lines.

Correct engine # as seen on my LST

 

[Michael Dimock]

Sounds awesome! Will be waitin to see some results. All I'm getting for your pics Robert are the red x's.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Michael,
thanks for the heads up on my pix's. I screw that up regular.

Robert

 

[Robert Kenney]

Well..... I got it all blowed apart so I could start measuring stuff.

First I roughly lapped the deck surface so the straight edge would sit flat and I could see if everything was still flat.

The following are only rough measurements for calculating the deck height to within +/-.005. Plenty close at this stage of the game.
I took measurements of the crank none because the nose will become my reference to find the main bearing center. I will add or subtract half the diameter from the deck measurement I get.

I got 1.740 for the nose diameter. 1.740/2 = .870

I got 8.853 for the deck height between the bttom edge of the straight edge and the top of the crank nose. 12" dial caliper did the trick here.

So 8.853 + .870 = 9.723 for the true deck height of my 152.

We know the stroke of the 196 to be 3.6563

1/2 the stroke (1.8282) will be used to determine the proper piston and rod dimensions and pick from the shelf.

We have several options beyond these constraints.
One is we can offset grind the crank by making the rod journal smaller (small block Chevy ) and increase the stroke some .080 or so.
That will give us more options for rod and piston combos.
I would rather keep the IH 2.375 journal for durability so I'll start with the stock stuff.

Any how off to the books. Lets see what I can find. If I bore you guys with this shizz let me know.

Rk

 

[Erik Socha]

Robert......my brother just picked up a '67 800 with a four banger....where on the motor can he locate the engine #???? Looking at your photo I can't determine the exact location...is it around the oil filter area???

Thanks......

 

[Robert Kenney]

Erik,

that photo is looking down right above the oil filter mount/adapter between the two legs of the drivers side engine mount bracket. Difficult to see on a fully dressed engine.

Robert

 

[Michael Mayben]

Dave is doing the research regarding the "options" for the rod/piston combo today.

He's leaning to the offset crank grind deal right now...but will explore all the resources he's got and try and pose every possibility vs. "cost".

No doubt you and dave could benefit from a jaw session without me as the middle man! Yawl know stuff, I don't! So once he gits his shit together, I'll set it up between yawl, in fact...maybe we'll do a conference call with kathy's number unless corporate has temporarily locked her outta that system also!

I'm just gonna follow directions that you and dave tell me to do! I'm good at that! But I know enuff ta "glyptol" the inside of the block after givin' it the final bath!

 

[Michael Mayben]

Erik...there is another "quickee" visual field test for a four banger motor "size", the front-mount dipstick tube.

There is a tab that mounts the top of the tube to the block with a short bolt. The tab has two holes, an "upper" hole and a "lower" hole.

If the bolt is in the upper hole, then the block is a 196. If it's in the lower hole, then it's a 152.

Same for the oil filler tube. The early (normally non-pcv equipped motors with a road draft tube) have a simple tab for retaining the tube to the head, only one hole. And those motors would all be a 152 since the 196 was introduced much later. But...someone could "mix and match" parts of course, which is why I'm relating all the possibilities! The later motors equipped with a pcv system have a retaining tab with two holes just like the dip stick tube.

The "early" oil filler used a breather-style oil filler cap which does not seal the filler tube, only vents it. The pcv motors use a "sealed" oil filler cap on the filler tube, same cap as used on all IH motors which had a pcv system.

On both of the ""two hole" tabs, the c-t-c distance between the two holes is approximately 3/4".

 

[Robert Kenney]

Yep, offset the pin for more cubes. I am putting together a xl spread sheet with all the options out there and a stroked 196 crank will make it fit. I like the 6.385 ctoc bbc rod for cost at the moment. But maybe a bb chrysler. We will see.
Custome pistons ate the cheapest part to make custom.

Have done it many times and have some real good sources.


Bore is the other thing. I need to sound the cylinders in my block to see if we can punch it to 4.00" .0625/radius increase. The block is set for an average on .250 wall thickness which will work if IH got the cores on location. Think about 188 cubic inches only stroking it .100. Or 193 in @ .175. All this in a package that will rev efficiently to 7000 with the right cam. She said bigger was better right???

rk

 

[Robert Kenney]

As we work through the details, one May make matching an off the shelf rod tough. C to c is ok @ 6.172 yielding approximately a 1.6 rod to stroke ratio for better torque and a improvement in knock resistance.

The big end journal width if 1.1875 and the rod is 1.182. We May have to use them after being dolled up and lightened.

I suppose the crank can be welded but the localized heat can cause excessive run out (warp).

I am not keen to using the stock rods and not being able to increase the stroke beyond the 196. So I May end up going all custom but we will have to see what dave finds all though we are using the same sources.

Robert

 

[Erik Socha]

Thanks for the information guys.....

 

[Michael Mayben]

I'm emailing ya a .pdf of dave's scribbling from last night Robert! See if ya can decipher and then I'll get all of us together onna conference call and see if we can make some decisions (or continue the discussion!). Dave's ideas are based upon most cost effective solution, which other than the additional cost of a balance job, would add maybe $250 to the cost of a "regular" engine rebuild since pistons would be needed either way.

Also...have you looked at a "reverse" scenario?? A "de-stroked" 196 which would bring in similar displacement but at a more "over-square" combo?? I know we are both looking at using existing cranks/blocks/etc., but this could go either way?

Lottsa beerthirty discussion points here!

 

[ihpartsjeff]

Check out the specs on a chrysler 198 slant six connecting rod. I've heard of this rod being used in a 392 with the crankshaft offset ground and used in conjunction with big block Chevy pistons to net 427ci. Again this is what I've heard thru the years but have yet to try out myself.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Jeff,
thanks for the info. The more the better. I will look into that more.

I scoured the stocking rod lists on the usual vendor sights for rod lengths but didn't find a large big end rod except for a 390/440 and no ss rods.
I found a slant six form that lists the c to c dimensions but no big and dims. Seems the 198 and 225 had 2 different rods a 6.400 and a 6.700 long rod. I think that would fit in a 196/345/392 tall block but the 152/304 is some .800 shorter.


I want the short deck of the 152 coupled with a long stroke to lighten the recip mass and get rid of the 2.3 pound pistons. Most popular engines are using pistons in the weight range of 1.2#. And a rod ratio of 1.6 not the 1.9 IH used. That rod ratio is real efficient in high rpm (8500+) engines. It does nothing for low end torque and detonation resistance.

The extended stroke 196 crank and the 152 height block will use a 6.1-6.2 inch rod with a light piston that will weigh 425 grams. A rr of 1.61 is right where I want to end up.

Anyhow enough blabbering. I have 5 ounces of single malt with my name on it.

Robert

 

[Michael Mayben]

Dave mentioned several chrysler-app rods also. Iirc, the problem was primarily that they were way too narrow on the big end, so side thrust was gonna be a problema to have to overcome.

That was his reasoning behind retaining the oem rods, while the ratio May not be optimum, it kept the entire engine project within the financial ballpark. All that would be entailed is fabbing and installing the small end bushings. Since the entire mass is gonna gitta balance job, that won't impact anything.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Michael,
I understand dave's reasoning for the IH rods.

I don't like the IH rods for 4 reasons.
1) weight on the small and big end that needs to be removed.
2) they have been in service for 45 years.
3) the caps have no locating feature for alignment.
4) the beam to big end bearing housing transition is crappy. This controls the distribution of the compressive loads to the bearing bore and the tensile loads that pull the bearing bore out of round.

I plan of blowing or turbo charging this engine so I won't cut corners simply because an off the shelf part doesn't fit right in.

Before I build an engine I won't be happy with I will design my own parts. Yes it will cost more but in the long run it will be a better engine imho. Kinda why I thought it May end up as a build off rather than the same engine twice.

A lot cheaper(per rod or piston) to have 8 rods and pistons made than 4. Sooooo? I will cost this stuff out custom and see.

Rk

 

[Michael Mayben]

So let's attack this from both directions!

I'll do the "cheep" (cheeper) version that might be able to be more doable by a typical handydan in a home shop and farming out the machine work as needed. Since obamassiah is gonna gimme sum cash to do this, I need ta stretch all them bailout dineros as far as I can. But he'll only put reglar alkeegazz in my tanks, he won't spring for tha ethyl hightest schnizz.

Then folks can pick and choose from the various ideas and methodology as fits their budget?

But I need you and dave to do all this dam math shit...since the sun season is over with up here, my solar kalkalator ain't workin' too guud! Yawl tell me what ta do as long as it's cheep!

 

[Robert Kenney]

Here is a setup that will cost close to what dave is proposing.

6.135 long bbc rods/ the piston in he suggested by dave
od a shorter cd with a longer stroke (3.831)

weld and grind the 196 crank offset and to the bbc rod width.
Similar price to welding and grinding for IH journal diameter and offset.

I find many options availible if we mix it up a bit.

Robert

 

[71 Scout 2]

Interesting ideas guys.
Just a few suggestions and some questions (not always in that order).
If you're looking into stuffing an unaltered 196 crank into the 152 block and looking to do it on a budget maybe stick with stock 152 rods. I know you mentioned that you don't like the stock rods and for a couple reasons you listed I'm not crazy about the stock pieces on a performance app myself, but with a little prep they are a decent part.
I looked for a "off the shelf" replacement connecting rod several years ago and couldn't find one that was 100% match on the big-end. Like you mentioned the big-end is wider than most anything of the same journal diameter.
For pistons seeing the budget is small try silvolite 1266 pistons. You will have to bush the stock IH rods and narrow the small end. The bushing required slips my mind, but I have toyota written in my notes. Also depending on your block/head combo you May have to shave some off the pistons (a very small amount, don't worry, plenty of meat).
Balancing the v8 was interesting, I'm sure the i4 will be even more so.
And from my past experience, boost and small budget have never been know to mix well.
How much boost do you plan on running?
A good prepped set of stock rods will handle way more than the pistons I listed.
What rpm do you see this engine turning?
Again, pistons listed are maybe good for 5500rpms, boost dependant.
A little eye candy.