Sudden loss of power, missing, odd noises = Gold box failure?

[Michael Mayben]

Ain't it more than a coincidence that this same scenario plays out over and over?? You should see the volume of email I git on this same subject from folks who don't wanna play in a public forum!!!

And you are absolutely correct regarding the pertronix instructions. I have written to them many times about that and even developed a "draft" revision of the instructions. They have never responded to my attempt at assisting them inna "qa mode". And because many times the aftermarket replacement gold box units have a different color pigtail (even though the plug will only engage one way), that adds to confusion.

The "up and down" play in the reluctor segment is of no concern. That is the "movable" segment of the mechanical advance unit and that movement is normal due to it's design and method of retention. Do not attempt to pull it up or it's possible to destroy a retaining clip underneath the lubricating wick below the rotor.

The only way to measure/detect "end play" in the distributor drive is to remove it and measure with a thickness gauge. The drive shaft and the part you describe mesh with each other but there is not a physical connection.

When the Holley gold box system is fully functional, it's a fine ignition unit. Same for the pertronix conversion, they are basically the same technology, only the pertronix does not require a separate amplifier. Because both are electronic triggers, you will not notice any performance difference at all, you have not done anything to make any difference other than restore the ignition system to functionality.

When you installed the p-tron and then adjusted the air gap to 0.030" with the supplied gauge, that "set" the dwell on the unit forever (unless ya change it). From then on, all that is needed is to set/verify base timing.

Changing to any of the aftermarket coils won't do shit as far as "performance" upgrade, the stock coil is just fine.

The only effective upgrade from where you are now is to add in a "6 series" cd box from mallory, crane, msd, etc. Along with a "e" core coil of some sort with a primary resistance in the 0.4>0.6ohm range. With that set-up, you can open the plug gap to a max 0.045" and you will feel a noticeable seat of the pants "change" in overall performance, especially starting.

The system described would be considered current state of the art without going distributorless/crank trigger/coil-on-plug.

 

[kyleandhisIH]

I'm glad to have the Scout running, and it's excellent to have your input here, but I still have a few issues. The first is with your last reply, mayben...

when you installed the p-tron and then adjusted the air gap to 0.030" with the supplied gauge, that "set" the dwell on the unit forever (unless ya change it). From then on, all that is needed is to set/verify base timing.

There was no gauge supplied to set my .030 gap. Not entirely worried about that since I have a fine set of feeler gauges. However, they weren't needed either way because the adapter plate for the trigger which I first installed had one flush-fit screw as a fastener, plus a small metal lock that fit into a second hole in the original plate. This prevented any sort of air-gap adjustment.

The trigger itself installed over the tops of two studs with small nuts and lock washers. While not measured, the air gap looked more like 1/16", which is a little more than double the .030 callout I see so much in these discussions.


The vehicle still runs poorly, after a more thorough experience today. First of all, cold start is a hassle. I pump the accelerator once, hood open to verify the fast idle cam's position. Choke and all look well, but when I press my start button it wakes up to about 600rpm that slowly fall off to a dead state.

Repeated attempts yield the same result. A light touch on the accelerator just kills the engine quicker, so I basically have to high-idle the motor myself with a firm punch. After a minute or two of ~1400rpm operation, it will run on its own.

The next issue is with timing. When I retard it below 10* of advance, the idle quality becomes rough and unsteady. Advancing it to about 13 results in smoother performance but it still makes the odd "skipping" noise. Advancing further does not remove the skipping/missing noise, but it does make the engine sound like it's galloping. Right now it's at about 14* atdc and no matter how much I try to adjust for "lean best idle" it still has that little skipping noise.

The rest of my issues, and likely the latter issue mentioned in this post have to do with carburetion. I have about $350 dollars but since my application is still being processed at the local airport, I'm not sure I want to buy one of your 2300 holleys this instant. However, it is a purchase I intend on making, so we'll see how the financial situation plays out.

Thanks for being so much help here. I couldn't have kept this vehicle going so long without this sort of assistance.

 

[Michael Mayben]

It's been three years+ since I last did a p-tron conversion inna gold box distributor. But at that time, the base plate for the p-tron was "oversize" slightly to allow for trigger "air gap" adjustment. Just like on the p-tron module for a Holley points distributor.

The air gap is critical on this type trigger. It effectively controls the "dwell"...same as when setting the breaker point gap.

And what you are describing regarding "timing" tells me that the dwell factor is all scruuee! Any inductive ignition system has to provide for dwell in order to allow the coil to "saturate" in electronspeak!

Just like breaker point systems, the dwell must be set correctly first, then the base timing is set. If ya then go back and change the air gap or breaker point gap, then that changes base timing.

I do have a gold box distributor on the bench right now for rebuild for a friend. The stock "breaker plate", while looking exactly like one in a points distributor, does not have the drilled/tapped holes for mounting points and condenser, therefore, the p-tron base plate is different so that it can utilize the mounting points provided on the Holley breaker plate.

Do the instructions say nothing about "air gap" that came with your kit??? I've set up many variations of p-tron conversions in all types of distributors and all have provision for air gap adjustment, but each version handles that detail slightly differently, for instance, a delco points distributor has the magnet ring "shimmed" off the bottom side of the rotor and due to end play in the mechanical advance unit, that can be real tedious to achieve. Once the gap is set, it will never change unless moved during subsequent service ops. It May be that something in the p-tron conversion for a gold box system has changed and I'm not aware of that. To verify, call pertronix and ask about the air gap deal!

Don't sweat the carburetion stuff now, ya gotta git the ignition squared away...once ya do that, I bet the carb starts playing nicer too. But no need for carb conversion until we work over whatcha got now and pronounce it doa (bet that is not the case!). Hell man, at least yours is running....many folks here would be happy to get that far! Just keep playing along and we'll get there!

 

[kyleandhisIH]

There was no mention of any dwell or air gap adjustment. It's just not possible, because there is a fastener screw on the adapter plate, as whell as a locating stud that goes into a corresponding hole on the original plate my Holley pickup was mounted.

The oem pickup was only attached with the one fastener screw, and it had obviously been set up to adjust dwell. Likewise, the 2009 pertronix ignitor (not II) setup has made sure dwell is preset by their manufacturing standards. Also, I don't consider it a factor, but there is an identifying sticker on the inner face of the new trigger/pickup. This surely does not affect my inductive electronics. Right? Just throwing that out there.

The instructions also leave out one step necessary in my specific case. The distributor I own originally had a plastic plate separating the upper part of the distributor's internals into a rotor section, and a trigger/reluctor/advance lower section. It also had what looked like a brass ring to contact the spinning rotor. After installing the magnetic wheel over the reluctor, I found I could not get the plate to seat inside the actual housing anymore. I removed it and after checking it out I was thoroughly convinced that I couldn't push the mag wheel down any further.

Since the rotor seemed to be at the right height when compared and since it would be spinning with the shaft/mag wheel, I don't consider it a problem. I just think it's odd that they left it out of the instructions, assuming that these are written instructions specific to my "style" of setup.

Also, I'm not worried about the carburetor. I can't exactly afford it, but I'm just trying to make it clear that I'm in this for the long term on my IH vehicle. And I also wanted to make it clear that I'm going to keep being this much of an annoyance.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Regarding your description of a "brass ring" and a "plastic plate" in regards to a gold box distributor, what you describe is a "dust shield" and was used in Holley breaker points distributors also. Those are very hard to come by! But...with a p-tron conversion, you cannot use that component and it must be set aside.

Going back to post #1 in this thread, your picture clearly shows an oem gold box distributor. Is this the same distributor we're discussing now regarding the p-tron conversion?

The sticker you refer to is a special type material designed to "self-destruct" is the p-tron module is mis-treated by wiring incorrectly, using a coil with the wrong primary resistance spec, or leaving the ignition system "hot" without the engine running. The sticker will be affected by excessive heat and "shrinks/releases"... A p-tron unit returned for a warranty claim with that condition will be denied and the problem coded as "customer installation error".

Can you post a pic of your p-tron installed without the rotor in place? Something is simply not right here!

 

[kyleandhisIH]

Looking at it, I can see the trigger sorta leans away from the center as you go up, according to the inside face.

I don't really know if you can see it from those pictures, but I'm guessing the gap between wheel and trigger goes anywhere from about 1/16" near the top of the pickup to close to 1/32" near the bottom.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Ok kyle, now we're gittin' there!!!!

After you posted last, jmiller here on the forum sent me a set of p-tron gold box module replacement instructions for the latest design, he was having this same issue!!!

And as I suspected, the entire gold box version of this unit has been redesigned in the last several months, along with several other models!

So what I've been discussing regarding the "air gap" is no longer valid unless you have a unit of the previous design that does have an adjustable air gap as part of the initial installation process.

And..p-tron has again neglected to update their installation instructions to reflect the actual wiring callouts on the IH-app gold box system, the color codes are still not correct.

But the biggest issue is...that new black plastic "delrin" spacer that is now included for all Holley distributor applications. The instructions do not mention that part at all!

That spacer goes under the magnet wheel, on top of the oem point cam!!!!!! In your pic, I can see it mounted on top!

If ya don't put it under the magnet wheel, the unit can't trigger properly...the magnet segment is not aligned correctly with the target on the p-tron module. There is no reference point for this, ya just have to figgr it out!

I had the same issue last week. A Holley four cylinder points distributor I rebuilt and installed p-tron ho-141 in. It took more than two weeks to receive inna dropship direct from p-tron after they scruud up a shipment to their distributor I bought it from. They were having issues with getting the newly designed magnet wheel into production. And that one no longer has provisions for adjusting the air gap, it's fixed now on it's adapter plate. In fact, the new ho-141 module and mount plate is identical to the same item used in the gold box version!

So I apologize for harping on the "air gap" deal! But at least now we know more than we did a few months ago! And thanks for being so patient!

Put the plastic spacer under the magnet wheel, re-install the rotor and cap and see what happens!

 

[JMiller]

I have mine the exact same way kyleandhisih has his installed in the distributor.

That rubber spacer is slotted to fit over the litte gear looking thingy.

Mine runs good (better than ever) but I think I am still missing something. I have just about chaulked it up to everything in there being 30yrs old except the p-tron.

Would like to know if putting the rubber under the magnet wheel makes a difference. Maybe I will try it tomorrow and report back. But then again maybe I am misunderstanding part names and mine is correct???

Jarrett

 

[Michael Mayben]

Yes, that black plastic "spacer" goes under the magnet wheel. That in turn raises the center of the magnet run line to right in the center of the trigger coil module.

However...if neither of you have the plastic spacer ring included with the magnet wheel, then disregard all the above!

Remember...a p-tron electronic conversion for the gold box distributor is "converting" a distributor that already is an electronic trigger! You are installing a black plastic magnet wheel over the gold box system reluctor to make the adaptation. The oem reluctor on the gold box distributor is not a magnet.

The last gold box distributor I converted was more than a year ago. It had a module that must have the air gap set with the included gauge, and a magnet wheel that simply pushed down over the oem reluctor with no spacer. And the magnet wheel was wider than the one shown in kyle's pic.

I've installed many p-tron units over the years in many different applications. The magnet segments need to center with the actual module on this type.

The installation of the p-tron conversion in a delco distributor is totally different, the magnet wheel is a "ring" which attaches to the underside of the rotor assembly with two screws and must be shimmed into proper alignment.

This pic is a p-tron kit ready to install in a Holley 1510 points distributor for a 196. The plastic spacer is the recently added component, this module is not manufactured with a provision for setting the air gap. The previous design units are.

 

[kyleandhisIH]

In my case, the ho-181 kit supplied no plastic spacer. What you are referring to as a spacer on top is actually a piece of the slide-over magnet wheel - the plastic surrounding the magnet piece is all one entity. So I can't exactly adjust it.

Perhaps new wires and plugs will improve my situation. It's likely the poor running has nothing to do with the upgrade, since there's nothing left to do.

 

[JMiller]

My ho-181 did not come with a "spacer" either. I thought Mike was talking about the black rubber peice that slid over the thingy that spins. Realized messing with it today that the black rubber thing can't go any further down due to the way it is made.

I have my p-tron wired directly into an msd6al box that then fires the blaster 2 coil...so I guess I am topped out ignition wise...except for some lovin' on the bottom side of the dizzy.

When I first got my Scout the people told me it was cold natured and needed to warm up before driving. I knew that was an excuse for "needs motor work". I soon found out that if I turned the headlights on it would run smoother. Sometimes I didn't even have to turn the headlights on until everything under the hood warmed up. I never thought about the gb because it looked new. I relocated it to the passenger side inner fender well and ran new wires and it kept acting up. So I bought the p-tron for shits and giggles and as an upgrade and have not had a single prob ignition wise since. Of course that was only a month ago.

I have just recently "finished" planned parts of my build and actually got to hit the highway today for the first time. Took a good 45min cruise at speeds around 65 and it did great. Stearing is a little scary being at 0* caster but I got used to it. Brakes are catching a little so I can't hit em hard till I get slowed down otherwise it heads straight for the ditch.

Jarrett

 

[kyleandhisIH]

College has had me busy lately, but I find time for heavy metal every now and then and this means dumping money on the Scout in some way or another.

Just recently changed to all autolite 303 plugs (following a post on here I think..) from bosch platinums. No real noticable difference except for a slight change in where the timing seems to read best. By this I mean that a steady rpm/man. Vacuum indication happened at 13deg atdc as opposed to ~15-16 before.

I've supplied a picture of my old plug set:

If you'll notice, #2 had an autolite 303 in it since the rebuild. This is due to a lack of communication while I cut treadplate floors and Dad ran to get a new plug.

However, something interesting - the 303 (which has the same life of the rest) also looked clean. The white insulator (porcelain as well?) was obviously the brightest plug in the group, so perhaps I made a good choice with the 303.




Does the condition of the plugs say anything? Also, can you set ignition timing using the method of observing vacuum/rpm at the same time?

 

[RobertC]

Plugs look okay to me.

If you have an IH service manual, there should be a section on spark plugs with two pages of b/w pictures of the various spark plug fouling / malfunction conditions.