Rocker shaft wear tolerance

[TX63S80]

I have read all the rocker assy post and have mine apart. There seems to be minimal wear but how much is too much? The arm bushings are in decent shape so combined I think there is maybe one sixty fourth inch slop. Are replacement shafts available?

First two are mine, the third pic I found online.

Thanks,
keith

 

[Michael Mayben]

There is no published spec for the rocker/shaft interface.

The "welded" rockers use a steel bushing that is embedded with an oilite-type bushing material. They were pressed into the rocker when manufactured and were never intended to be replaced....service procedure called for replacing the rocker with new when worn.

In the past, we've had re-manners who rebuilt these type rockers...but the source for the actual replacement bushings for the remanners quit producing 'em...so now the remanners are not doing the rockers! There May be "some" still around but we don't have a steady source for those any longer.

And the reman'd rockers can usuall be id'd by the fact that when the replacement bushings are pressed into the rocker, they receive one or two "spots" of tig welding for retention.

As for the shafts...if ya can feel any wear with a fingernail drug across the surface, then they are effectively "ng". But that is a judgement call...I re-use (after cleaning internally of course) many rocker shafts that exhibit wear simply because we can't get new ones that are properly drilled for the nine-stand system. That is not a super-critical area, if the rocker "feels" ok when installed on the wear point and does not exhibit excessive slop, then I'll re-use.

Have ya reviewed this thread?:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...I-4-sv-engine-non-oiling-rocker-assembly.html

The pics you posted of your rocker shaft sure appears to me to be excessive, I'd not reuse that shaft except fpor use in a boat rocker conversion where it will be turned upside down.

 

[TX63S80]

Thanks Mike!

Just to be sure the third picture is not my shaft, just posted that because couldn't believe the wear.

My shaft does not pass the fingernail test but without replacements available it will be reused. The bushings are in good shape so after clean up and reassembly I should be much better off than I was. Btw, I was definitely not getting lube to the front three arms.

I picked up the ten pack of dorman plugs so if anyone needs a couple let me know, on me, I'll even get the postage.

Thanks again Mike.

 

[Michael Mayben]

I knew that third pic was not you! That is just unbeliveable...reckon that lifter was whackin'???? No way the pushrod coulda stayed in place!!!! You sure ya didn't steal that one and photoshop it?????

Before moving ahead though...consider this:

we have new five stand/boat rocker shafts in stock...no problem at all to obtain today. Those can be simply turned upside down and then have the additional mounting holes drilled by any machine shop. In fact...now that you have brought this up I'm gonna go out in the shop and see what it takes to drill the shafts in a simple drill press equipped with a mill vise.

Again, they must be used upside down as compared to when used for the boat/stamped rockers as the lubrication scheme for the two different systems is completely altered.

I'll get back to ya if this can be a diy deal. The test will be conducted onna really scrap shaft (almost as bad as the one in the pic!), not gonna experiment on any reusable parts!

 

[Michael Mayben]

Ok, here's the initial results of attempting to drill these rocker shafts.

Neither a high end "bullet bit" (black and decker/dewalt), nor a high quality hss (split point) bit won't hardly touch this rocker shaft material.

But...a cobalt bit will punch in fairly easily.

This pic is just a test of feasibility. The hole is a pilot drilling with a cobalt bit and no coolant. Drill press is a typical multi-speed el cheepo harbor freight which has served me incredibly well for over ten years, it runs with various wire brushes in it for hours a day some times. Likewise the cross-feed vise is a companion hf item.

I don't have a full set of cobalt bits, but I will pick up some more 3/8ths bits this coming week for modifying these shafts. I'd use a 5/32" cobalt for locating a pilot hole in each position, followed by the final 3/8" hole. And I'll run coolant/lubricant on the drilling also.

Using a badly worn rocker shaft (nine stand/welded variation) clamped side-by side makes it easy to locate each additional hole that is needed. The shaft I'm drilling here is a typical five stand/boat shaft just like the new ones we have in stock now.

So...I'll pronounce this deal a go, though it might require one fresh drill bit per shaft to complete...more to come on how that turns out.

Once the boat-style rocker shaft is re-drilled, then it needs to have an identification notch ground into the end to denote the top of the shaft when used with welded rockers.

 

[Major Screwup]

I haven't looked at one of these in eons, but what about cleaning up the shaft on a centerless and re bushing the rockers?
Cost would put it out of reach for the duck tape/bubble gum crowd, but might be a solution????

 

[Michael Mayben]

I haven't looked at one of these in eons, but what about cleaning up the shaft on a centerless and re bushing the rockers?
Cost would put it out of reach for the duck tape/bubble gum crowd, but might be a solution????

Since new five stand shafts are available, seems to me the drilling deal is very viable for the folks that don't want to convert to boat rocker assembly/pushrods. Can you recommend a better way of drilling the new shafts that is feasible cost-wise??

We've seen some of the nine stand shafts that have been centerless ground and then hard-chromed back to diameter but that no doubt is very pricey process unless done in bulk...I have maybe twenty shafts that could use that right now!

As for the bushing in the rocker, that is what the "rocker rebuilders" were doing until the supply of the bushing was terminated...that replacement bushing is the kicker!

And...not only does the welded rocker bushing normally need attention, so do the hardened wear pads on the valve tip end which are pressed in. The pic attached shows a workaround that some remanners have used in the past for this...they do a radius grind (resurface) on the pad and then "shim" it and hope that lifter pre-load and pushrod length will work out!

I'll get several sample botched welded rockers to ya with various issues, and a couple of useable ones so ya can see if this is something ya might be interested in doing???

The bushing is a really thin steel shell with the bronze material bonded internally. We've looked at boring the steel bushing and inserting a bronze/oilite bushing in the ole but since the wall is so thin it just doesn't appear doable.

Again...in the past, there was plentiful supply of "remanners" that did these rocker arms as well as the shafts, but due to the "no bushing" issue they have ceased production of the IH welded rocker arm reconditioned units. About a year ago we spent much time trying to locate a supply of these items, that resulted in laying in a stock of boat conversion stuff along with a few usable welded rockers.

I still have a large quantity of welded rockers to put through a cleaning/inspection process to determine if they are usable, but I've already culled about fifty items (both intake and exhaust) that are beyond redemption. I've also visited our extremely large engine core parts supplier looking for this stuff, but they have always just scrapped the core parts in the past (no market), they are now setting the stuff aside and holding for us when they get it.

 

[Major Screwup]

You already know how excited I get about making stuff for the IH crowd.
Maybe you can find a bushing or one close enough to modify here:
us graphite, inc.

I'm sure they would be happy to make 'em for ya too!

As for drilling look for a carbide drill, they cost about as much as solid gold drills!

 

[Michael Mayben]

you already know how excited I get about making stuff for the IH crowd.
Maybe you can find a bushing or one close enough to modify here:
us graphite, inc.

I'm sure they would be happy to make 'em for ya too!

As for drilling look for a carbide drill, they cost about as much as solid gold drills!

That excitement is exactly what I thought! But you will always get the shot at optioning out! After all, you are one of the few folks in my circle who know shit like this!

Got your email...I've thought about that deal but never follered up on it! I will now! In fact I have a few of those in the wrong size now, so I'll go do another test hole!

So more test hole data to come, the shafts are still in the vise!

 

[Robert Kenney]

If you want replacement bushings give me a call.

 

[Major Screwup]

I would like to excersize my option to bail out!

 

[Michael Mayben]

if you want replacement bushings give me a call.

Do it!

Didn't I send ya some botched welded rockers (both intake and exhaust) back when?? Will those work for samples regarding pressing the existing bushing our for reference and dimensional takeoff??

If not I got plenty more I can send down along with a few good ones!

Best case would to be able to press the replacement bushing in without having to tig it to secure.

I didn't get around to putting carbide against a rocker shaft today...maybe tomorrow...but I got a head gasket replacement on the 'rango starin' at my azz now and I don't wanna deal with that modern throwaway crap! If momma lands that gig in salem she's gonna need her transport device operational.

 

[Tiny Yokum]

The first one is past its half life.

 

[Michael Mayben]

For the record...the pic of the extremely botched rocker shaft is not an IH I-4/sv shaft!!!! Note the position of the rocker bushing oil holes relative to the mounting holes.

I believe (though I'm not 100% positive) that the shaft in the pic is Ford fe part. I've got some of those around here someplace left over from the hotrod fe that Todd and I built last winter. Not quite as bad as the one in the pic but headed that direction as the engine had zero oil pressure when we first fired it off for testing.

There is no way that an IH sv could have continued to run like that as the compression on that cylinder would be nil.

But...since the performance fe motors (not all) are solid lifter/adjustable rocker engines, one could possible keep adjusting valve clearance until valve timing went so far off the scale the motor simply would lay down on whatever cylinder the rocker was mated to. And no doubt this same condition affected multiple cylinders.

The Ford fe motors along with many other engines are afflicted with very similar valve train lubrication issues just like the sv series. In fact, back in the day there were many folks offering "top end oiler kits" that ran an auxiliary feed to the rockers on this engine series. The motor that Todd built had rockers stands that had been drilled for that feature but not installed. Consequently the rocker assemblies on that engine were not oiling since holes had been drilled into the feed rocker stands but not connected...therefore all the rocker oil supply was being bled back into return oil before reaching the rockers.

We lucked out on that motor as rocker shafts are available for those at the local 7-11. But even better, since it had not actually run very long in that condition (in it's previous life it was a boneyard-assembled motor of grossly mis-matched parts), the rockers were not damaged. In actuality...they were a matched serialized set of oldskool forged rockers from iskendarian. An isky spokesperson (dude that signs the checks) made an offer to buy those back from Todd and provide a different type of new rocker...but that offer was turned down!

 

[TX63S80]

The badly worn shaft is not an IH, I found it on an image search. It's from a green tractor that apparently had a worse rocker design. I'm suprised no one commented on the hole allignment.

Here is the original post, see the 5th paragraph.

yesterday's tractors - restoration story: 1964 jd 2010 diesel - part 4


Edit - I was trying to clarify but you beat me to it, I knew that wouldn't get by you. I do hope you are able to supply the shafts but I am going to reuse mine, for now.

Thanks.

 

[Michael Mayben]

the badly worn shaft is not an IH, I found it on an image search. It's from a green tractor that apparently had a worse rocker design. I'm suprised no one commented on the hole allignment.

Here is the original post, see the 5th paragraph.

yesterday's tractors - restoration story: 1964 jd 2010 diesel - part 4


Edit - I was trying to clarify but you beat me to it, I knew that wouldn't get by you. I do hope you are able to supply the shafts but I am going to reuse mine, for now.

Thanks.

So this tractor dude tore a motor down and did not check all the parts before determining what was gonna be needed and what the plan for the big picture was gonna be!

Live and learn...

Ya can always go back in and work out the rocker assemblies at a later time if ya get tired of the noisey valve train. That is an ez Saturday morning job once ya have fresh rocker shaft assemblies ready to go. Start collecting all the rocker assemblies ya can for parts donors...that is what we do!

You will be surprised that some the nastiest rocker assemblies that you would fully expect to be trashed turn out to have the best parts for cleanup and reconditioning! And the clean ones that appear to have come from motors that had regular oil changes are the most damaged due to excessive wear!