Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
It is common to have to dress up a cam bearing id. It is a delicate hand operation that is only needed if the cam turns tight. Most of the time lubing, slipping in the cam and, working the cam around is enough.
Noisy 304 and Crank Marks
- Thread starter 77SSII
- Start date
Ok,
to fill you guys in a little, I've been speak to Robert about this.
I ended up putting in new cam bearings after the block was line-bored that are 0.030" over sized.
Ran the truck for maybe 50 miles and siezed an intake valve.
Had the heads done over and then the motor had the same issue w/a sticky valve as the truck wouldn't really run and I was getting fuel spitting out of a vent on the stock carb.
Pulled the motor again and I now have the heads off.
I can look thru the oil passage from the cam bearings to the the deck of the block. I can see the hole in the cam bearings and are lined up almost perfectly, maybe a very very small wedge isn't lined up.
I think I read somewhere michael mayben would put a drill bit down that hole to open things up a bit?
What happens if that hole in the bearing is opened up to almost the diameter of the passage in the block?
Would it pump too much into the rockers and starve the sump? Would I loose a lot of pressure?
As the engine sits now, I have 50 psi at the block and only 25-30 at the heads and it doesn't "squirt" out it kinda dribbles out of the heads that feeds the rocker stands.
Any thoughts?
I'm gonna pull the cam and see what the bearings look like.
Thanks!
to fill you guys in a little, I've been speak to Robert about this.
I ended up putting in new cam bearings after the block was line-bored that are 0.030" over sized.
Ran the truck for maybe 50 miles and siezed an intake valve.
Had the heads done over and then the motor had the same issue w/a sticky valve as the truck wouldn't really run and I was getting fuel spitting out of a vent on the stock carb.
Pulled the motor again and I now have the heads off.
I can look thru the oil passage from the cam bearings to the the deck of the block. I can see the hole in the cam bearings and are lined up almost perfectly, maybe a very very small wedge isn't lined up.
I think I read somewhere michael mayben would put a drill bit down that hole to open things up a bit?
What happens if that hole in the bearing is opened up to almost the diameter of the passage in the block?
Would it pump too much into the rockers and starve the sump? Would I loose a lot of pressure?
As the engine sits now, I have 50 psi at the block and only 25-30 at the heads and it doesn't "squirt" out it kinda dribbles out of the heads that feeds the rocker stands.
Any thoughts?
I'm gonna pull the cam and see what the bearings look like.
Thanks!
dkminors
Member
I'm curious if they replaced your rocker arm shafts when they redid the heads. If you have worn shafts (at least on boat type rockers) it can close off your oil passages. Also, if they didn't install new end caps on the shafts there is likely a ton of crud in there blocking oil passages.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
It is possible to have too much oil but in your case I doubt it. I have in certain cases and at the owners request drilled through with a long 3/16 drill. Be sure to deburr the id of the bearing if you decide to drill. That engine is great.
Pull the cam and look at the hole in the journal. It is drilled off center and designed to line up with the lower bearing hole and upper bearing hole that feeds the head. See where it lines up with the top cam bearing hole and the bottom cam bearing hole. The bottom hole is the feed to the bearing from the main gallery t"d to the main bearing and cam bearing. The oil should shoot over the fender when lined up. It is only during certain cam clockings though. That is the flow volume metering mechanism.
In our discussion you indicated that the other head is a geyse like I wrote above. I suspect the other/poor flow head/bearing is clocked wrong at the bottom or something like that. Make sure the feed to the bearing is clear.
Pull the cam and look at the hole in the journal. It is drilled off center and designed to line up with the lower bearing hole and upper bearing hole that feeds the head. See where it lines up with the top cam bearing hole and the bottom cam bearing hole. The bottom hole is the feed to the bearing from the main gallery t"d to the main bearing and cam bearing. The oil should shoot over the fender when lined up. It is only during certain cam clockings though. That is the flow volume metering mechanism.
In our discussion you indicated that the other head is a geyse like I wrote above. I suspect the other/poor flow head/bearing is clocked wrong at the bottom or something like that. Make sure the feed to the bearing is clear.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
For clarification,
the rockers and valve train parts in the heads are not associated directly with the lifter gallery plugs at the front of the block. Only cam bearing 2 and 4 will effect flow to those regions.
See attachment below.
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Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Here is a drawing showing the flow path. Note that the cam cross drilling is off center so it makes the connection from the feed below through the can journal to the passage in the block that feeds the head.
Make sure the cam is properly drilled. Could be a bad blank. Also the bearing has a groove at the bottom hole that gives oil more flow time.
Make sure the cam is properly drilled. Could be a bad blank. Also the bearing has a groove at the bottom hole that gives oil more flow time.
So!
With the heads off, spun the crank until I could see the cam oil holes then using the drill, spun the oil pump. Passenger side you can see the hole in the cam. Driver side you cannot. As you spin the crank, the view down the oil passage on the drivers' side never changes as the cam spins.
Went to remove the cam and it was hard to turn. Had to remove the access panel on the back of the block and knock it out w/a mallet and punch.
The f***ing #3 bearing came out w/the cam!!!!!
#2 and #4 are shit after maybe a 1/2 hour of run time!
I seized #3 intake valve again because no oil coming up on the drivers head!!!!!!!
I have another complete 304 w/727 bolted to it that is in my shop that underwent a flood 6 years ago. I'm gonna strip that "original" 304 and see what it looks like.
I was told to scrap the current block and start fresh w/another block.
My pistons and main bearings are brand new but the pistons are 0.060" over.
Im gonna see how much to fix that stuck valve w/a new guide and to bore the block and have the deck touched up.
I also need a new cam as the one I have was "trued" on a lathe and is no longer stock.
I think I need to have drink.
I have spent so much $ for two complete rebuilds of the same engine and w/no results!!!!!
I'm gonna be on my third engine after driving the truck 1500 f***ing miles!!!!
Does anyone have any tissues?
I'd ask for lube but it's too late for that....
With the heads off, spun the crank until I could see the cam oil holes then using the drill, spun the oil pump. Passenger side you can see the hole in the cam. Driver side you cannot. As you spin the crank, the view down the oil passage on the drivers' side never changes as the cam spins.
Went to remove the cam and it was hard to turn. Had to remove the access panel on the back of the block and knock it out w/a mallet and punch.
The f***ing #3 bearing came out w/the cam!!!!!
#2 and #4 are shit after maybe a 1/2 hour of run time!
I seized #3 intake valve again because no oil coming up on the drivers head!!!!!!!
I have another complete 304 w/727 bolted to it that is in my shop that underwent a flood 6 years ago. I'm gonna strip that "original" 304 and see what it looks like.
I was told to scrap the current block and start fresh w/another block.
My pistons and main bearings are brand new but the pistons are 0.060" over.
Im gonna see how much to fix that stuck valve w/a new guide and to bore the block and have the deck touched up.
I also need a new cam as the one I have was "trued" on a lathe and is no longer stock.
I think I need to have drink.
I have spent so much $ for two complete rebuilds of the same engine and w/no results!!!!!
I'm gonna be on my third engine after driving the truck 1500 f***ing miles!!!!
Does anyone have any tissues?
I'd ask for lube but it's too late for that....
I feel your pain(really I do as my new 392 is being redone again after only a short few thousand miles). If you don't want to mess with it I can have a fresh long blocked shipped out to you that comes with a 7 year, 100000 mile warranty. Balancing, porting and extended warranty that covers labor to r&r engine in the event of a failure are all options that are available. Price breaks down as such:
304/345/392 long block - $2495
refundable core charge - $350
shipping to customer - charge varies from $125 to $275
shipping return on core - charge varies from $125 to $275
balance engine upgrade - $200
rv cam upgrade - $100
port & polish upgrade - $400
warranty upgrade - $300
if this is something you are interested in best to call to order. Any of us here can help you.
304/345/392 long block - $2495
refundable core charge - $350
shipping to customer - charge varies from $125 to $275
shipping return on core - charge varies from $125 to $275
balance engine upgrade - $200
rv cam upgrade - $100
port & polish upgrade - $400
warranty upgrade - $300
if this is something you are interested in best to call to order. Any of us here can help you.
Mark Pietz
Member
Jeff,
if you care to share - what happened to your 392?
if you care to share - what happened to your 392?
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
I'd like to know also.
Basically the motor failed for two reasons. One was I didn't log data and have bill burn a chip until October, three months after its completion and several thousand miles many of which were hard towing use. Two when bill was here he found that my TBI adapter wasn't sealing properly thus causing a vacuum leak. By running it lean the tops of at least two pistons began to melt. Still ran awesome and had awesome power but I never was happy with this engine anyway. The balance job sucked, rings were at max gap when I assembled it and I didn't get my zero deck that I asked for. So now we use another shop out of state and I get a dam good warranty with it.
Attachments
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Probably detonated it some.
You got away without ripping the rings and bores up due to butting because the gaps were big. You really need to go big for this build and application. Always gap for the worst possible duty you expect to give it.
Did you have an engine oil cooler? 180-195f max when pushing it as a tow rig with high compression.
Did you see above normal coolant temps?
I agree that the wide ring gap saved the bores from more serious damage. It did ping on warmer days when pulling grades so I know it was detonating and thats when I would back off the throttle. At the same time the engine temp would climb. Once bill tuned me live pulling up a grade and experiencing the issues I was having he made adjustments that solved the lean at load issue but by then it was too late and the damage was done. No engine oil cooler except for the custom 10 quart pan I run with cooling tubes thru the pan. I'm sure there are pics of it somewhere.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Man you really need a cooler and diverter type of thermostat. Also gives you more over all cooling. Piston temps being the most important.
But you know these are only my way opinions. :d
But you know these are only my way opinions. :d
Mark Pietz
Member
Since the topic of hot oil has come up, this is as good a time as any to float an idea. The holidays have hampered my getting my project together, but in reality I've been hung up on making a decision (since it is apart and I'd never get another chance to do this) about installing oil jets to cool the undersides of my pistons. Maybe it's overkill if I don't run more than 5 or so pounds of boost, but reading Jeff's problems makes me really think hard on this.
On the silvolite page (I think it was) I stumbled onto the wrist pin oiling/misting system by blp. They make a jig to drill the webs then tap/install little jets to spray against the undersides of the pistons. Originally designed to solve a wrist pin oiling problem for Ford hipo engines, it was discovered to also cool the crowns quite well, or so they say. Oil feed comes from a groove one cuts from the oil hole in the web to the new hole (the bearing shell serves to make it a "tunnel"). Before the holidays I sent them an email about this stating what I was considering, and I got a response that they talked someone through the process for an oddball engine that was run on the salt flats, with success, and to give them a call. They'll sell the jets separate. You need to put the block on a bridgeport and angle the bit right if you don't have a jig. I doubt this has been done on an sv, but maybe it's time to seriously consider it. If I'm waaaay off base on this let me know. Wouldn't it be best to spray that cool oil directly to where it would do the most good? I've got my rings gapped to 0.019" and ready to otherwise install, but ?????
On the silvolite page (I think it was) I stumbled onto the wrist pin oiling/misting system by blp. They make a jig to drill the webs then tap/install little jets to spray against the undersides of the pistons. Originally designed to solve a wrist pin oiling problem for Ford hipo engines, it was discovered to also cool the crowns quite well, or so they say. Oil feed comes from a groove one cuts from the oil hole in the web to the new hole (the bearing shell serves to make it a "tunnel"). Before the holidays I sent them an email about this stating what I was considering, and I got a response that they talked someone through the process for an oddball engine that was run on the salt flats, with success, and to give them a call. They'll sell the jets separate. You need to put the block on a bridgeport and angle the bit right if you don't have a jig. I doubt this has been done on an sv, but maybe it's time to seriously consider it. If I'm waaaay off base on this let me know. Wouldn't it be best to spray that cool oil directly to where it would do the most good? I've got my rings gapped to 0.019" and ready to otherwise install, but ?????
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Direct impinging oil nozzles are one way but most engines that need them have a form of them. Usually coming off of the big end of the rod. Either a hole in the top of the rod body diagonal to the cap parting line on inlines and v's or on some v's a groove in the cap clamping face directing oil toward the cylinder sharing the journal with that rod..
Fyi the sv and 4 bangers have the first type I mention here. That is more then enough.
Fore the most part keeping oil temps in line is the key. 180-195 tops. Install a oil temp gauge along with the oil cooler and t-stat
Fyi the sv and 4 bangers have the first type I mention here. That is more then enough.
Fore the most part keeping oil temps in line is the key. 180-195 tops. Install a oil temp gauge along with the oil cooler and t-stat
Mark Pietz
Member
Robert,
thanks for weighing in. But help me out here. I know that little hole is in the big end of the rod (is it only on the fours?), but I thought that was there to squirt oil on the cylinder bore and didn't have much volume. I'm obviously mistaken. You mean it actually squirts up to the underside of the piston and pin? So if that's the case then we already have a form of that "oiling jet" - no need to pursue the other. If that's the case then I resume assembling the engine.
thanks for weighing in. But help me out here. I know that little hole is in the big end of the rod (is it only on the fours?), but I thought that was there to squirt oil on the cylinder bore and didn't have much volume. I'm obviously mistaken. You mean it actually squirts up to the underside of the piston and pin? So if that's the case then we already have a form of that "oiling jet" - no need to pursue the other. If that's the case then I resume assembling the engine.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Your choice. The rod jet is enough. The spray in the crankcase is atomized and indirect. The oil from the rod will rattle around and absorb heat. The heat it can absorb is directly related to its initial temp and your ability to get rid of that absorbed heat..
My opinion and how I'm building my stroked/turbocharged 152 is utilize the rod as a source of cooling oil.
My opinion and how I'm building my stroked/turbocharged 152 is utilize the rod as a source of cooling oil.
Mark Pietz
Member
That's the kind of information needed to make "informed" decisions. Since I've managed to reduce my c.r. To a tick over 8:1, then my heat loading will be much less than at 8.3:1. That will help.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.