New scout owner having some Ignition problems :)

Z

Zeronomous

New member
Hello all^^, just became part of the International Scout club :), found a old early 70's (I believe) with the 345 engine down toward the gulf coast and picked it up. It was in pretty rough shape, but for the price I couldn't argue, and I have heard nothing but good thing's about scouts. It is the Scout II, I know for sure. We trailered it home, and it actually cranked and ran (albeit rough), long enough to limp it from the car hauler to the driveway. The next day, I took a good look at it and tried to get an idea of where to start. I fired it up, and it ran again just fine, with only a minor water leak out of a front metal hose (right next/under the distributor cap on the passenger side front engine. I began to perform regular maintanence on it, and here's a quick list of what I have done to it over the past couple of day's.
Oil change + filter
rear/front differential fluid change
rubberized the bottom side to seal from more rust forming
lifted the shakles another 2in on the lift.
Replaced the spark plugs
installed window (not fold down), and driver side/passenger side door.
Installed a rear roll bar for future canopy roof
and a few other odds and ends.
To my surprise today, it won't crank :(. I first checked the fuel pressure getting to the engine, and it seemed fine enough to crank. I cleaned the little rubbish plastic fuel filter and it filled fine with gasoline on the next attempted crank. I inspected the carb, and jet's were pumping just fine, however no amount of starter fluid could get it to crank. And gas seemed to be getting to the engine fine. I am a bit worried the problem is firing, although I can't seem to narrow it down. I did notice the distributor cap actually rotates on this engine (whole assembly), and wondered if perhaps I bumped it and would that be the cause of it not cranking. New spark plugs, so I don't believe that's the case. Of the actual ignition, this is what I have worked on so far :

inspected and moved the ground on the battery, it was pretty bad, cleaned it up and mounted it on the block near the exhaust manifold.
Checked battery, was ok.
Installed new plugs, although not new wires.
Inspected fuel filter and cleaned it, but it did seem clogged somewhat anyway. Seemed to suck fuel and fill afterward just fine.

I really can't for the life of me figure out what could have happened between it driving just yesterday, and today not firing up, but again I am very new to Scout's, and hopefully someone here knows a good bit about this and can lend a quick tip or 6 :). Glad to be here, and thanks!
 
Welcome to the forum. Before I get into your issue, I'm going to give you a quick brush up on some basic technical jargon so as to minimize confusion going forward.

In this and similar forums, the term "cranking" generally pertains to the engine making full revolutions via starter engagement or by hand with a socket and breaker bar on the crank bolt. This does not mean the engine is running, just that it is being turned over. Generally when an engine will not crank over when the key is turned, this equates to no noise being produced other than perhaps some clicks from the starter solenoid.

By your description, it sounds like the engine is cranking over fine with the starter but not actually firing up and running via internal combustion.

Lets begin with the spark plugs. Did you replace them one at a time (preferred method) or all at once? If all at once, did you label the plug wires so you could re-connect them in the proper order?

If the whole distributor body is rotating freely and has been moved at all since the engine last ran, its likely your ignition timing has been thrown off. There should be a distributor hold down clamp with a bolt in the center of it to prevent the distributor from rotating once the timing has been set. Check to see if its there and if the bolt appears to be loose or missing.
 
scoutboy74 said:
welcome to the forum. Before I get into your issue, I'm going to give you a quick brush up on some basic technical jargon so as to minimize confusion going forward.

In this and similar forums, the term "cranking" generally pertains to the engine making full revolutions via starter engagement or by hand with a socket and breaker bar on the crank bolt. This does not mean the engine is running, just that it is being turned over. Generally when an engine will not crank over when the key is turned, this equates to no noise being produced other than perhaps some clicks from the starter solenoid.

By your description, it sounds like the engine is cranking over fine with the starter but not actually firing up and running via internal combustion.

Lets begin with the spark plugs. Did you replace them one at a time (preferred method) or all at once? If all at once, did you label the plug wires so you could re-connect them in the proper order?

If the whole distributor body is rotating freely and has been moved at all since the engine last ran, its likely your ignition timing has been thrown off. There should be a distributor hold down clamp with a bolt in the center of it to prevent the distributor from rotating once the timing has been set. Check to see if its there and if the bolt appears to be loose or missing.
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Thanks a ton for your quick reply scoutboy74, and apologies I've been out most of the day today running errands. Your right, the engine is making revolution's fine, but no internal combustion. The distributor cap, seem's to sit on a round metal post coming from the engine block near the head, and between the valve cover's. The distributor cap, after looking closely, doesn't seem to turn itself, and seem's to be locked in, however the round post it sit's on (along with another piece of machinery on the post I dare not guess it's function), seem's to rotate toward the fan belt and all the way back to the block by hand fairly easy. The cap itself on the distributor seem's fairly tight, but I am unsure if the entire assembly would affect the startup. The odd part, is attempting to start the truck yesterday, before actually installing spark plugs, it would not fire. I am almost certain I did try to crank it prior to getting started on plugs. I did manually do the plugs one at a time however, although not in any order. Just the driver side of the engine, then the passenger side. It is very possible that assembly holding the distributor was touched or moved however somewhere in the course of regular maintanence before trying to crank it again though. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the distributor is pretty lacking in case you know what I might look into trying next. It's raining cat's and dogs here at the moment, but I will get out and attempt to try it again as soon as possible. Much appreciate the help as well!
 
Random question also, if anyone get's time. I am having a hard time identifying this year model Scout. I do know it's a Scout 2, from the logo on the rear tailbed, driver side (unless someone has put it there prior to me getting it). It has the rounded headlight cover's from what I can tell (missing currently), 2nd row seating with removable top. 345 engine almost positive after reading a bit here on the forum's, 4x4, 5-lug rims, the front grill (haven't counted it yet), has the vertical bar's up and down, however with no chrome stripping or trim atall, and a International logo seem's to be missing from the driver side front grill, toward the bottom. As much as I'd love to say this is a late 69, I'm guessing it's early 70's. ^^
 
zeronomous said:
the distributor cap, seem's to sit on a round metal post coming from the engine block near the head, and between the valve cover's. The distributor cap, after looking closely, doesn't seem to turn itself, and seem's to be locked in, however the round post it sit's on (along with another piece of machinery on the post I dare not guess it's function), seem's to rotate toward the fan belt and all the way back to the block by hand fairly easy. The cap itself on the distributor seem's fairly tight, but I am unsure if the entire assembly would affect the startup.
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The distributor is the long rod/post like thing that the distributor cap is attached to. It goes into a deep hole in your engine block and interfaces with the engine rotation by a gear at the end of the distributor. When the engine turns it spins this gear that in turn spins a shaft that goes all the way through the distributor. This shaft runs electrical switches that are timed with the operation of the motor to turn the switches off and on when gas is present in the combustion chamber.

dis1.jpg
From the distributor identification thread


The distributor must be fixed into place. By rotating the distributor you adjust your timing. There is a sweet spot where the distributor must sit in order for your engine to run. This is where you set your distributor when setting your timing.

If your distributor can rotate then you must fix it. It must be clamped into place. Setting your timing isn't that big of a deal but you must understand some main concepts and be able to put your engine into an initial setting. That would be understanding top dead center, compression stroke, exhaust stroke and how to set your engine on these standards. You also have to understand the firing order of the motor and the distributor cap and be able to ensure the wiring to the cap compared to the rotating assembly.

Mayben has written some tech articles about this and they are all available as stickies in this forum and are required reading for what you are dealing with. I will point them out to you for good measure.
Installing a distributor here
Power timing here

If, after reading through those, you do not feel comfortable enough to know how to do this then grab a mechanic friend, grab a few cold ones, and learn how to do it. Setting timing is as good a place to start as any in the shade tree mechanicing world.
 
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Your plug replacement process sounds just fine. There's no particular order that must be followed when doing them one at a time. Having a bunch of loose wires at once and not remembering where they go is a problem. To me it sounds like your likeliest culprit is this freely rotating distributor and the strong chance that its not in the "sweet spot" anymore as drew mentioned.
 
Freakin sweet!

Haha, thanks for the link's merrick, and the re-assurance scoutboy74^^, I'm tickled to know it's a slight problem and not a major one (at least I'll hope at this point). I need to begin the body work and paint tommorrow anyway, I'll gladly get started on getting that sweet spot back :). I thought something was off with a rotating distributor, but had no idea (lol newbie), the entire assembly was the distributor. I'll take a look at the attached guides and see if I can figure out what I am doing over a few mountain dews tommorrow. Truly appreciate the help btw, and excited to learn how to do this for future reference. The truck is overall pretty beat up, and to be honest way over my skill level. My one big hope was it's already running condition, and a little intuition and elbow grease hopefully can help it get back to good shape^^. I'll let you guy's know how it came out tommorrow as soon as I know something. Thanks again!
 
Ha, merrick I read the guides. After reading them, and coming to rather profound conclusion, this is what I got :

rotate the distributor cap until the damn thing cranks, then snug it up tight!

Thought that was humerous. There's a lot to this with tdc and all, but it's nice knowing I can't blow a spark plug 40 yards and kill my neighbors dog. Is there anything largely I should be wary of adjusting the spot on the distributor to regain the sweet spot? Or rather, is there a non-cranking sound I am looking for that will be different while adjusting it attempting to get it firing again? Apologies on the question's. I think I can follow the guide pretty well after ignition is achieved to set the idle rpm's to a acceptable level. I have the clutch/standard 345 I do believe as well. Just noticed the bell housing is missing the flywheel cover and dust gaurd on the trans as well. Sigh, big day tommorrow lol!
 
Top dead center (tdc) on the compression stroke is essential to re-aligning your distributor. To find the timing marks you have to look at the front of your motor where all the pullies and belts are attached to. If you look down there you will find some graduated marks cast into the timing gear cover. If you rotate the engine (either with a large breaker bar and socket setup or bump starting the starter) you will see that there is an indicator that will line up with those graduated marks. You rotate the engine until that indicator lines up with the biggest graduated Mark. That is top dead center. But.... The engine at this point is either building compression or purging exhaust. To give yourself some success in setting up the distributor you need to figure out what stroke your on. The how to article is describing that you need to be in an instant that is just before top dead center on the compression stroke. There are many ways to figure out if your in the compression stroke:
observing valve and rocker states (straight from Maybens article)
using adapters with straws or balloons.
Guessing and if it doesn't start rotate the distributor 180 degrees.

Follow those directions, all the information you need is there. If you don't understand it now you will when you are done. The service manual for your vehicle will also show a procedure to set timing and where the timing marks are. If you don't have one then get one. Jeff sells them here at IHOnly north. Another good source to have is the parts manual, but it's independent from the service manual.

scouts are a good thing to learn engine mechanics on. The engines are simple and bullet proof. I am still a noob mechanic, but these engines are not mystical. Thanks to Maybens teaching and some mechanical ability I was able to diagnose problems, rebuild rocker assemblies, replace broken rods, compression and leakdown test, set dwell and timing, rebuild a carb correctly all on my very first attempt at engine wrenching.
 
Status update :

thanks for the insight^^, I read up on the guides today as best I could being a novice mechanic myself. I took the solid advice of a 6-pack as well :)
I went and double checked the spark plugs connection before getting started, and rechecked the fuel getting to the engine to be sure.

The engine fuel filter fill's with no problem.
The Holley 2barrel carb (gold box), seem to be jetting fine (2 sprays) when the accelerator is pushed as well.
Spark plug connection is good, although incorrect gapping might be possible.
Now for the distributor :
1. I loosened the distributor cap to check the connector's on it, and they "seem" to be in good shape.
2. Attached the distributor cap back and snugged it tightly with the 2 original clamps.
3. I checked for the marking's, but without being able to take the hood off this morning, had to rotate manually and guess.
4. Did 5x rotations of 90 degrees from front to back, in very small increment's over a couple hours this morning. No avail, turn's over great, but still no fire. I did unattach the top mounted plug (the plug from the distributor cap, to the assembly mounted on top of the motor, round black cylinder lol), to make sure it had a good connection. After realizing I had no idea what I was staring at, I re-attached it best I could and continued rotating and attempting to crank it. Still no luck, with tiny increment's and 5 full swings of the distributor, I didn't get so much as a misfire.
I did look for the tightener also, to keep the distributor from turning so freely to no avail, I am sure it's a bolt probably close to where it enter's the housing down to the block somewhere.

I have all day luckily today, so I am going to remove the hood and check for the graduated marks on the block to help guide me. The only part I don't understand with manually turning the engine over to the marks, is how the distributor should be placed while doing this, or if turning the engine over by hand does the work for you. I'll keep reading and attempting guy's, and check back in a couple hours. Appreciate all the help thus far though^^.

Would there be any small tinker's that would normally keep a engine from firing when it ran the day before? Surely it's the distributor, but if there are any small things you guys can think of, be glad to check them as well. Thanks!
 
no avail, turn's over great, but still no fire. I did unattach the top mounted plug (the plug from the distributor cap, to the assembly mounted on top of the motor, round black cylinder lol), to make sure it had a good connection. After realizing I had no idea what I was staring at, I re-attached it best I could and continued rotating and attempting to crank it.
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That's called an ignition coil. It supplies the power to the spark plug. The distributor distributes that power to a specific spark plug at a specific time, determined by the rotation of the shaft. Without starting at top dead center under compression you are just shooting in the dark.
 
The procedure discussed involves having the distributor assembly completely removed from the engine and re-stabbing it once tdc of cylinder #8 has been located. If you don't have the hold down clamp and bolt for the distributor, there's not much point in going through this exercise, as the distributor can just get bumped out of position again that easily and you're back to squares. When you get it positioned properly, you want to be ready to lock it down that instant. Conversely, hunting for #8 tdc on the compression stroke with the distributor still installed is kind of pointless. This engine was running before you replaced spark plugs, correct? So the distributor was stabbed correctly and it hasn't been removed from the engine. The spark plug wire order hasn't been changed. You should be able to get this thing close enough to at least get it running crappy just by hunt & peck. I'd just rotate the dizz all the way counter-clockwise (as you look at it from the passenger side) until the vacuum advance canister (the odd looking duck on the front of the distributor with a vacuum nipple and hose connected) hits the water pump housing. Then back it off clockwise about one inch. That ought to be plenty close enough to get things coughing and sputtering provided there are no other issues.

Now you mentioned spark plug gap. Lets discuss. What brand and number designation of plugs did you buy? Did you check or modify the gap at the time of installation? Gap should be .035 thousandths of an inch for your stock configuration.

The black cylindrical object with a short high tension wire that runs to the center of the distributor cap is your ignition coil.

As to the exact year of your Scout, do you have the ability to take and upload quality digital images to this thread? Matter of fact, if you could provide some good pics of your under hood from both sides/angles, that would really aid in identifying and diagnosing problem areas.
 
My method is to start from the block and build up, but I am one of those guys that has to tear everything apart to figure out how it works. I also have a compulsion to find out how it works, so my suggestion is a bit more extreme, though you would learn alot from it.

Trevor's suggestion is a much more sane and plausable application.
 
The beast lives!

First, I want to thank you merrick and scoutboy, your feedback has been insanely useful from the get-go, and it's truly appreciated.
I went back outside today after a failed morning attempt at it, and noticed the coil (thanks for pointing that out btw :) positive wire was in pretty rough shape leading to the goldbox Holley. I spliced it, bought some 16ga (maybe 14), and ran a new line to the distributor housing. Afterward, before attempting to crank, lol I as odd as it sounds, just looked at the thing and thought, crap wouldnt it look right here?
Lol to my avail, first attempt at starting and it sputtered. It was on to the races after that, I was re-invigorated! I managed to adjust it to crank and run every other time or so now, and all with your help guys! I do think the coil positive was a major player, as I didn't get a sputter earlier in that same position before I replaced it. Long live the Scout's, I think this thing truly hasn't ran more than 10minutes in 25+ years, and now it fires up every other time, although very grumpy!
I wouldn't have been able to do it without you guys, and as soon as I find a +rep button, I'll add some lol.
 
I wanted to repost a bit :

I was psyched hearing the beast fire up and actually put the first coat of metallic burnt orange paint on the body. Huge difference, huge lol. Painted the first coat after sandblasting the rims, a nice shiny gloss black. I must say it look's sooooo much better!

Thank's btw for the gapping info as well scoutboy, I'll try tommorrow to go back and gap everything correctly, and if I read the distributor tuning guide correctly, then while running I could take a stab at finding a perfect point of fire "sweet spot" in the morning. She definitely is running rough though, I think it May take some time to filter the new fluids and gas from the new gas tank through her.
After getting it cranked, I strolled around the block as well (had to strut my stuff), it died a few time's which I figured was coming, and about 10feet from the driveway she blew that metal red hose (water) leading into the block, directly below the distributor from earlier. It had a leak I noticed from before, but it was pretty funny to be cruising @ 10mph and having it shoot cold water over the windshield and give me a bath. I couldn't help but laugh! Although, one passerby did notice and give a frantic caring look to the sprinkler I had going. I just kept cruising and played it off as best I could lmao.

I'll try to get you guy's some photos up here as soon as possible as well, my phone can take them, but I'm not terribly good at uploading them. You'll probably lawl @ the engine, it's literally covered in rust for the most part.
Soooo much work to do, so little time.

Ps. I'll google that hose located below the distributor and off the water pump I am guessing, hopefully finding one won't be terrible, I think I am more concerned with if the engine is actually getting enough water to it. When I popped the cap on the radiator after getting back, the flood came with the ancient built up rust in the water.

I did not gap them atall as of yet scoutboy, probably not a good idea lol.

What would you guy's suggest, (yet another question, lol sorry), to get the engine back to normal at this point? It seem's to be running pretty great, but defnitely has a miss to it. (more than likely related to me not gapping the spark plugs correctly lol).
 
Good job getting it running again, sort of. You're welcome for the help of course. Its what we're here for. Weren't nobody born with this knowledge 'cept mayben. If you hang around this forum long enough, you'll find out about him.

The metal "hose" as you call it is actually a coolant transfer tube. You've come to the right place to buy them. The creators of this forum are authorized light line vendors. This forum exists to support their very fine sales and service endeavors. Replacement water pipes along with a shit-ton of other precious parts can be purchased right chere from their online store. The tubes May be side specific, so make sure you specify the correct one when ordering, unless you want to replace both. Might not be a bad idea if one is already rotted away. They require a rubber o-ring in order to create a leak-proof seal.

I advise you not to run your engine for any longer than a few minutes at a time now until you get this major leak properly repaired. Better yet, not at all. Allowing an engine to overheat due to uncontrolled coolant loss and poor coolant circulation is unwise.

As for getting your engine running tip top, its going to be a very involved process. You'll have to take a methodical approach and focus on one micro-system at a time. Everything must function together in perfect harmony to achieve that melodious v8 rumble. Without even seeing your engine, I can tell you that your carb will need to be torn down, thoroughly cleaned and rebuilt in the correct manner with the correct parts. That means it will need to be properly identified first. Well-focused pictures are a great help. This is not something to just poke at with a stick and call it good enough for gummint work. I'm betting much of your electrical system resembles the set of the movie "gremlins". These are the common hurdles faced by damn near every new binder owner in the early stages.

In addition, you still don't have the distributor hold down bracket either. How can you expect to keep the timing dialed in once you get it there if the distributor can be easily turned by hand on a whim? That dog ain't gonna hunt.

I know this is an exciting time for you, but I really think you need to narrow your focus. All this effort you're making on cosmetics like body and paint can wait in my opinion. Its kinda like lipstick on a pig at this point. Good mechanicals are far more important. Engine, transmission, electrical, and brakes. You get all those vitals dialed in, and then you can move on to aesthetics. Just my free advice. You can take it for what its worth.
 
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Thanks Scout!

Apologies I did forget to put in the post I tightened the distributor down right after getting it timed, good and super snug. The microsystems sound like a good idea, and being I have a coolant leak out of that hose, I'll go ahead and order it here! Then I'll see about replacing the other hoses while I am there from the top/bottom radiator to the engine lines and seals.
I notice, previous owner has a makeshift bolt with rubber gasket through two freeze plugs as well. Ghetto, but I can't imagine why he wouldn't just replace the freeze plug. One's on the driver side front, and the other adjacent on the passenger. Wonder if this water leak has happened before hrmm hah.

Looks like coolant is next then ^^.

Sorry, it's so but ugly, the body dialed my mother asking for a facelift and I prob got ahead of myself.

Lol indeed it look's like a rabid beaver got a hold of the wiring on the top of the engine, and removing the rear tail-light assembly the cords are just cut as well, and rear brake lines are disengaged. Lol, guess I got a project alright!

I'll see if I can get some good focused photo's of the top/down on the engine and bottom/up for you guys. And again, thanks for everything thus far.
 
Good deal on the hold down bracket. Now, you will be loosening and tightening that thing a few times to make minor distributor adjustments during the fine tuning process.

The makeshift freeze plug you describe is actually a store bought item. The problem with normal freeze plugs is they are a major pain in the ass to drive in place with the engine in the vehicle. So those bolt in kind are kind of a convenience item, but they are by no means as good as a brass plug driven in properly. The best time to replace plugs is with the engine removed from the rig and bolted to a rotating stand. Then you can wail on 'em with no trouble.

The bottom line is, you're dealing with a 35+ year old vehicle that's been rode hard and put away wet most of its life. Added to that along the way are undoubtedly a number of unsatisfactory previous owner repairs/modifications. Those usually do more harm than good. But, you ain't a special deal. You're just another in a long line trying to revive worn out junk same as most everyone else around here. Most of the questions you will have or issues you will face have already been encountered and documented somewhere in the archives of this forum. I suggest you take some time and really explore all the subheadings. Git yerseff lerned up guuder. Search is your friend. And if you can't find the answer you're looking for, by all means ask.
 
scoutboy74 said:
most of the questions you will have or issues you will face have already been encountered and documented somewhere in the archives of this forum. I suggest you take some time and really explore all the subheadings. Git yerseff lerned up guuder. Search is your friend. And if you can't find the answer you're looking for, by all means ask.
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Words to live by.. Also.. Having a service manual is as important.

Glad you got it rough running.
 
Thanks again guys. I spent this afternoon changing out wires, the last of the old fluids, oil pain gasket, differiental fluids, and removing the freely swaying original shocks. Afterward did manage to get the entire thing covered with bondo and finished the first paint coat. It's definitely a learning experience, and soon I will run out of time to devote all day to it.

Considering I have the truck now cranked and running, I'll go ahead and close this thread and repost more about my endeavors in a different post. Many thanks you two for all your help. I'll see if I can finally manage to upload those photo's, as I took some today of top/down on the engine, and before and after photo's of the paint. Thanks for the head's up on the service manual and links as well, I'm heading to pick them up in the store now along with the heater/radiator metal line that busted. Hopefully afterward, she will see the road again after a long long time^^.
 
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