New guy clueless about ignition

Travis

Member
Hello all. I am new to this forum and new to the world of International. I have a 72 Scout II with a 345. I pulled it out of a field a few months ago. It had it running but running rough. So I did a few changes like points and cap and rotor. Corrected the firing order and now it does not run. So I have a few questions about some conflicting info I have gotten.
1. Where is #1, #2, #3, and so on cylinders? I read on here that #8 is pass. Side back and #1 is drive front.
2. How should the coil be wired? I am getting 12v. With or with out a resistor to the + side and then 0 or 12v out the other side depending on if points are open or closed. Is this right?

Thanks for your time. Looking forward to getting this on the road and trails.
Travis
 
hello all. I am new to this forum and new to the world of International. I have a 72 Scout II with a 345. I pulled it out of a field a few months ago. It had it running but running rough. So I did a few changes like points and cap and rotor. Corrected the firing order and now it does not run. So I have a few questions about some conflicting info I have gotten.
1. Where is #1, #2, #3, and so on cylinders? I read on here that #8 is pass. Side back and #1 is drive front.
2. How should the coil be wired? I am getting 12v. With or with out a resistor to the + side and then 0 or 12v out the other side depending on if points are open or closed. Is this right?

Thanks for your time. Looking forward to getting this on the road and trails.
Travis

Did you time it correctly? All International v-8's time off of #8
if in doubt look on the intake runner, the number of the cylinder should be stamped right there.
 
Travis...in the next few days, Jeff will have another new forum area going around here to deal with the subject of ignition systems. Same concept as what we're doing with the other "basic" vehicle systems as they pertain to IH vehicles of all types.

Hang on...it's coming! And we deal in fact around here...not some kinda rumor started by someone's ex-mother-in-law's sister by adoption that "might" have had an IH combine back in '23 pulled by mules fed on mash from some distillery in eastkintuck.

Within 60 days...if ya pay tension, you will know everything ya need ta know to work on junkiron (but not for money!).
 
I know the firing order and that it is on the manifold. I also know how to time it. But need it to run first. It was running rough so I pulled all the parts and swapped it all out before timing it. Then put it all back to stock and it still did not run. So I need to know where each cylinder is located.
Thanks again.
 
What I was trying to say is that the cylinder number is embosed on the intake manifold runner that belongs to it close to where it bolts to the head.

Edit: by the way I moved this into the ignition section for furture reference.

Maybe this will help
firingorder.jpg
 
Thanks for moving this thread Chad! Now we got everything in it's proper place.

And for proper identification, the intake manifold in Chad's pic is an aluminum casting, "rpt" intake. Those are based upon the "last gen" cast iron intake manifolds ihc produced but have been enhanced somewhat. But the cylinder runners are exactly the same as any other IH-produced manifold, though the one in the pic is a 4 venturi/barrel unit.

I was gonna hold off on posting this response until the subject was appropriate, but I think now is the proper time. Travis is in "learning mode" and we don't wanna miss an educational opportunity. I'm a bit concerned that the following May confuse the issue but it does go hand-in-hand with the subject of "firing order" for the sv engines.

We've previously defined the cylinder numbering sequence, along with the ignition/cylinder firing order.

Many times...ignition problems are blamed for drivability issues, when in actuality, the fuel/intake system can be the fault, most especially the carburetor.

All sv engines use either a 2v (2 venturi or "barrel") carburetor, or a 4v (4 venturi/barrel) carb as oem equipment. No sv engine was ever supplied oem with a Holley "3v/barrel" carb.

A 4v carb is basically the same thing as a 2v carb with two additional venturis/throttle bores added, along with a "secondary" fuel reservoir and metering system.

The intake manifold for "most" (but not all) the sv motors is a variation on a "high-rise" design, with a dual plane casting. For purposes of this thread...it's only important to understand the following:

no matter if the intake manifold is a 2v or a 4v design, the passenger side venturi/plenum feeds cylinders #2, 3, 5, and 8. The driver side venturi/plenum feeds cylinders #1, 4, 6, and 7. Please note...this callout is not the same as "firing order"!!! It does not have to be! Look closely at the rpt intake manifold, you can easily see which runners feed which cylinders.

Comparing a 4v manifold with a 2v unit, we find that the "secondary (rear) throttle bores simply connect with the primary throttle bores, which allows an increase in atomized air/fuel volume when the throttle system opens past approximately the 2/3rds point in rotation, hopefully resulting in an increase in available engine horsepower/torque.

If...one side of either a 2v or 4v primary carb circuit should malfunction, the end result is gonna be four dead cylinders, the plugs will be firing, but because no fuel/air mixture entered the combustion chamber, there is no charge to fire at the appropriate time as determined by the ignition firing order.

This is a very important diagnostic technique to employ when trying to deal with cylinder misfire...either a single cylinder or multiple cylinders.
 
Travis



^
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8


18436572 is firing order for most v8 engines/cept fords and maseratis,fiats but you aint got one of them.
 
Thanks for all your time. You know I pulled a 4 barrel manifold at a local pick and pull and stripped it down and saw the numbers for the cylinders. Sorry I did not understand what you all meant. Still have not had time to get out and work on it in the last three weeks. But plan to this week. So if I get eight to top dead center the rotor should be facing eight on the dist. Cap. That should give me a good idea where to turn the dist. To get it to fire. I think at one time or another someone pulled the dist. Or something cause when I has all the wires messed up it ran. Not great but it did run. Now they are where they belong it will not fire at all. And I am getting spark down to the plugs. Totally messed me up. Anyway thanks again for all your help.
 
Hang in there travis, you'll soon figger this stuff out and it'll be second nature!

Ya need to start from the beginning and "re-stab" the distributor to make sure it's in the correct position initially. But again, these IH sv motors are weird!

Align the timing Mark on the crank balancer to tdc on the compression stroke for number eight (8) cylinder. As you come to tdc, stop rotating just before the timing Mark aligns, do not go past the Mark and then come back to it! Important!

Make certain that the oilite bronze bushing is in correct position in the block just above the oil pump drive, it must be there otherwise that distributor will not last more than 10 minutes once the engine cranks.

Then align the distributor rotor with #8 plug wire terminal on the cap and rotate the distributor about 1/8th of a turn counter-clockwise and then drop into position while ya wiggle the rotor to allow the gears to mesh, the oil pump drive tang will go into it's slot first and then the drive gear will slide into mesh with the cam gear. The rotor tip should now be pointing at the #8 cap terminal. It won't be perfect alignment until ya rotate the distributor a tad.

Next just snug the distributor holdown in place to allow the distributor to be rotated by hand so you can set the timing.

Next up, re-wire the distributor cap starting with #1 cap terminal which is the terminal just to the right of #8. The firing order again is...1, 8, 4, 3, 6, 5, 7, 2. So follow that pattern around the cap, plugging each wire into it's appropriate cap terminal and then the spark plug for that cylinder.

Once you have the distributor cap wired correctly, you will be ready to bust it off and set the timing. Get back to us if you need help with that operation.
 
Travis an easy[er] Way to arrive at proper timing. Is pull #8 plug, rotate engine by hand or cranking and feel for compressed air coming out of 8 cylinder, stop when you get air compressing past your finger, go look at timing Mark on crank, it should be close to tdc, move crank clockwise to align it with tdc on the timing Mark.if you passed the Mark turn crank around twice more to realign marks.
Then just look at dist rotor where ever it is pointing align a dist cap tower with rotor, thats #8 then re do all the rest of the plug wires as per correct firing order. Saves having to pull dist, since you havent done that yet anyway.


Save your 2bbl manifold. Is the 4bbl man. Square bore or spread bore.?
 
John, since I have never pulled a dist. Before I am going to go your route. I already thought about that and I am glad to hear it should work. Once I go to electronic down the road I will have my buddy help me pull it and re stab it if it needs it. As for the manifold. I just picked up a stocker at a junk yard. It has four small holes(1 7/8") I believe. I had to go to transdapt to get a 1/2" plate to go from my edelbrok to the IH. Why keep the 2 barrel? And once again thank you michael and john. I am not really dumb. Just used to Chevy and Ford and asking almost anyone for a hand or picking up a manual for 20 bucks.
 
Travis then just follow mikes advice starting from where he states 'nextup' down near bottom of his last thread.
Its simple really- I know all you did was move all the wires over one tower in/on the dist.
So be certain#8 cyl is tdcc of compression stroke, ascertain harmonic balancer is on/aligned with tdc marks, and you had air pissing outa #8 cyl[pull plug and crank starter -youll hear air hiss outa that cyl.

Anyhow having that accomplished -look at dist, pull cap, notice where the rotor is pointing, put cap on and which ever tower the rotor is pointing to, put that wire on #8 plug, then clockwise
[ I think it goes that way-twist rotor, which ever way it moves with tension is the way the dist rotor turns when engine is running[or crank the engine and watch the rotor turn then youll know for sure,works on any engine].
Work around the dist towers in /with correct firing order from the#8 cyl 84365721
 
Sorry for taking off on you all. Had a baby a months ago and working a lot. Plates been full. Anyway. The Scout is alive finally. Turns out the guy before me took an old horn button and put it on the steering and that was my starter button. They bypassed the ignition switch all together. But the crazy thing is that when you start the engine it would start to run and pop and as soon as you let up on the starter it quit. Well with help from a friend we found out the 12v to to ignition system all together went away when you let up off the starter as well. So anyway the motor starts up. Now though the rod knock is another problem. Shoud I post that question in another section since I have the ignition all figured out.
 
Classic "po virus" syndrome travis!

It's detail like this that makes or breaks threads such as this one where ya chase your tail for hours, all because the big picture is..."it's not oem"!

Congrats on the new fambly addition! Always remember...scruuin' with old iron is a hobby, it ain't life! Fambly stuff is life! Only took me about 25 years to figgr that one out!

Take your "engine knock" issue to a new thread, as this forum grows (which is very rapidly right now!), that will make tech issues much easier for new members to research!

Thanks for the followup and closure, that's important!

We hope to see yawl at the Sierra Fall Rallye in dobbins, that's in yore own back yard!

Ps: just last night, my peekup ignition switch started taking a hike after getting all the cd ignition stuff installed! Exact same issue even though I'm not running the bypass because of the addition of the mallory ignition box. The "bridge" switch function inside the switch is worn out and is intermittent. I carry a new switch in my truck box all the time so slammin' one in is no big deal. So don't think your issue is an isolated deal, this is a very common issue when dealing with old stuff that just flat wears out (current ignition switch is an aftermarket neihoff that is 8 years old)! And that is exactly the reason I have a permanent-mount auxiliary starter switch/button mounted under the hood!
 
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