More 80 Questions

71mtnscout

71mtnscout

Member
I will be picking up a really clean stock 80 soon and have a couple of questions. This will not be a heavy trail rig, just for exploring on mainly dirt roads/trails and my dd in weather when I cant ride the bike. I will also tow it behind my motorhome as the "exploring" vehicle.........see where I'm going?

I would like to get a small lift for it so I can clear 31's and not do body damage if I get into an "oh crap" area while exploring. Should I start looking for a 44/30 combo from an 800, or will the 27's be ok? I really want it to stay close to stock looking and anything I do to it to be reversable. My last 80 stayed stock for about a month before a total running gear change and the crawler mods. I will "update" the 152 so it can breath a little better and add a real ign system for reliability and probably an overdrive for the 18.

Opinions?..................I have the sii to beat up as a heavy wheeler.
 
D27s won't handle anything over 27-28" tires.

Find some 800 axles, or better yet Scout II or Jeep waggy.

Fyi pre 1970 (I think) Jeep cj-5 springs are the same width/length (you can find lifts springs for them).
 
71mtnscout said:
I will be picking up a really clean stock 80 soon and have a couple of questions. This will not be a heavy trail rig, just for exploring on mainly dirt roads/trails and my dd in weather when I cant ride the bike. I will also tow it behind my motorhome as the "exploring" vehicle.........see where I'm going?

I would like to get a small lift for it so I can clear 31's and not do body damage if I get into an "oh crap" area while exploring. Should I start looking for a 44/30 combo from an 800, or will the 27's be ok? I really want it to stay close to stock looking and anything I do to it to be reversable. My last 80 stayed stock for about a month before a total running gear change and the crawler mods. I will "update" the 152 so it can breath a little better and add a real ign system for reliability and probably an overdrive for the 18.

Opinions?..................I have the sii to beat up as a heavy wheeler.
Click to expand...

The option rear axle in later Scout 80 was a d44 with two-piece axle shafts (tapered hubs). Those have an offset pumpkin to use behind the d18 transfer case. Those are a bolt-in replacement, spring width is same and the benefit of having the larger 11" bendix rear brakes that have easily available parts.

For your described use one would be perfect, most all found are equipped with a trac-loc ls unit and will be normally a 4.27 ratio.

The same axle for a Scout 800 will have a centered pumpkin, not as desirable for use behind a d18 due to the weirdazz driveline angle compromise, but it will work ok but eat u-joints more often in daily use.

A d30 for a Scout 800 for the front would be perfect and a bolt-in swap as well. Those are pretty common, I believe Jeff has several at the shop in Loomis.

I have 31" tires on our Scout 80 with a d27/d44 combo using 5" CPT shackles front and rear. They are on oldskool "deep reverse" wheels that get the inside of the front tires away from the springs in a turn. The axle is the oem d27 with the option 10" brakes which work really well. Works just fine for use as a tractor here on the place and will survive just fine on the street and fire roads we run, we don't use it for hard-core rock houndin'.

Many of these rigs were set up as toads behind motorhomes back in the day! Most were equipped with remco driveline disconnects for the rear driveline.

In addition to the lift shackles, I've installed CPT 6* caster wedges on the front axle, what a great difference that makes in tracking and in allowing the steering to self-center. When used in flat tow, it really improves turning and I can back the rig just like a trailer!

I used 2.5" wedges and modded by drilling and mounting with long spring center pins, they will never have a tendency to spit out!
 

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Thanks for the replies.
Its a 64 and so far all I've seen are pics of it. We are meeting up in utah the begining of April to do the trade. From the pics its quite a peach.

Michael, how hard are the offset 44's to find? So I should find an 800 d30 for the front? I thought the d18 was flat towable with the front hubs locked and both sticks in neutral, so that the bearing get oiled? The truck is supposed to only have 64k original miles on it, and by the pics, that might be the case. What are the most cost effective mods to the 152 to make a bit more power, it has a 1904 on it already?
 
Here we go with another hotly debated topic. Sure it's a bit of a nuisance, but better to d/c the rear shaft, especially for trips over 50 miles.
 
71mtnscout said:
thanks for the replies.
Its a 64 and so far all I've seen are pics of it. We are meeting up in utah the begining of April to do the trade. From the pics its quite a peach.

Michael, how hard are the offset 44's to find? So I should find an 800 d30 for the front? I thought the d18 was flat towable with the front hubs locked and both sticks in neutral, so that the bearing get oiled? The truck is supposed to only have 64k original miles on it, and by the pics, that might be the case. What are the most cost effective mods to the 152 to make a bit more power, it has a 1904 on it already?
Click to expand...

An offset d44 for a Scout 80 May be a bit hard to find. If anyone down in your area has one that is good, it would be either Jeff's brother Isa there in acton:

Isa's International Harvester

Or bro Mike at IH only in Lancaster:

International Harvester parts and more!

As for flat towing a d18-equipped rig...I've experimented with disco' the front hubs and tc and tranny in neutral alot. At road speeds from 35>65, for a considerable distance. During that time I constantly pulled over at various intervals and used an infrared thermometer to monitor the transfer case surface temps at various spots. Idea was to spot any temp rise (indicating a lack of lube issue) during the testing. I never saw any temperature diff in over 100 miles during that test. So for short hauls what you describe would be ok.

But...if I'm gonna flat tow a long distance, the rear drive shaft always comes down at the diff and gets bungeed up out of the way! I won't run the risk of a transfer case popping into engagement when the toad bangs across pot holes, rough ground, etc. They pop out of gear pretty easy sometimes, they will also pop into gear just when ya don't want 'em to!

I also run drive flanges on the front of my rig now so the hubs don't disconnect. I hate locking hubs in general for a serious trail rig or workhorse.

Robert and I are getting back on the stroker 152 engine projects real soon, (mine this week!), we talked about this yesterday. There's gonna be alotta stuff posted regarding pumpin' up a fourbanger onna budget, ya don't have ta go the stroker route! My thread is already started here:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/gas-engine-tech/1144-ultimate-IH-fourbanger.html

I picked up a new cam bearing knocker and I'm anxious to try it out! Hope to drop the block at the machine shop Friday for bake and blast and magnaflux, depending upon how the block comes out, will determine the next step as this is a definite budget build from my end.
 
I am following the stroker 152, but I dont think I want to go that radical in the 64. I'm just looking for 150-175 hp out of her. Can I get that with a cam and head work? Assuming that I get it to breath with a header and a decent carb setup.
 
Not with out a bunch of money. At the levels you want displacement is your friend. Or forced induction and then it would be easy.
 
71mtnscout said:
I am following the stroker 152, but I dont think I want to go that radical in the 64. I'm just looking for 150-175 hp out of her. Can I get that with a cam and head work? Assuming that I get it to breath with a header and a decent carb setup.
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Yes,..to a degree. And continue to monitor that hop-up/stroker thread, it's gonna become active again in the next day or so.

edit: I had a different scenario in mind when I typed in the "e" designation for the engine suffix, that's a mistake on my part! The correct designation a "345a" head source!

Round up a 345 "a" head, we'll be discussing how to do a mild porting that anyone could do with time on their hands. The "e" is an "emissions" head, so that should be any 345 head produced after mid-'72. I'll have to get back to ya with some part numbers to look for, the actual IH p/n is cast into the head for ez I.d. Once you have a head, then have it magnafluxed before doing anything with it! Those are really bad about cracking through the valve seat area.

Also in the works, an "adapter" to mount the 152 intake to that head (not a carburetor adapter!!). If you have been following this thread, you understand the problem in port match between the 152 intake and the 196/345 head:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/carb-tech/1281-alternative-I-4-engine-carburetion.html

If you are willing to go through all the gyrations/gasket mod/etc. That I did, you can use the 152 manifold without the adapter Robert is developing, ya just have to be real anal about mounting the manifold, once it's installed, it will seal correctly with no vacuum leakage and no "water leakage" as you May have seen posted in other forums.

I personally feel that mounting a weber dg carb using that shitball adapter commonly found on the I-net for those carbs is a waste of time and money even on a stocker. The engine cannot use the weber carb when it's got a major restriction to mixture flow through the adapter and the tiny hole at the intake manifold plenum.

I'll update that thread with my latest weber findings today, I have forgotten to do that. I've now gone as far as I can with that scruud-over carb I'm using to learn this stuff with, without a choke system it's just about useless! And the modded intake manifold I botched is going to a welder this week also for repair so I can finish up that intake and move on to another one that is gonna be a bit nicer when completed.

So...to answer your question, I certainly think what you are proposing is viable, and can be done in stages as ya freshen the motor! And "freshen" will be imperative, in our experience, most all fourbangers will have one or more "flat" cam lobes if the cam is oem, that is what manifests itself in a compression anomaly and poor idle quality once the carb and ignition is spot on, ya can't compensate for valve timing that is not "sync'd"!
 
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I was going to look for a "donor" engine to mod while still driving the 80. Should I look for a 152 or a 196? What year was the different clocking done on the 196 for the sii? I'm a pretty good fab man, and mind you I havent looked at the 152 yet, but I might just scratch build an intake for it that can take a decent carb. That depends on alot of things and I May be talking out my a$$ since I havent really taken a good look at it yet.
 
The reason Robert and I are doing the 152 stroker is that the bore/stroke relationship ends up being much more performance-oriented. And the IH bottom end is super-strong anyway to support this! The idea is to use off-the-shelf parts all the way, since a crankshaft needs to be re-ground anyway, then the offset grind is no big deal. And no mods (rod relief by grinding) to the block are needed at all other than standard rebuild process.

The rods are readily available big block chev performance units that are actually much less dinero than having stock IH rods reconditioned (we can't get new ones anymore)! We are going to split a set of eight! The rod bearings are standard chev parts, the mains are standard IH stuff (undersize for the crank grind of course).

Same for the pistons, though we haven't decided exactly which ones to use yet. Robert has all the knowledge in his haid about the chev stuff so I'm just doing what he tells me to do!

As for the intake manifold, Robert is leaning towards a pair of side draft dell'ortos, thus he's worked up an intake manifold flange pattern.

The Scout II used the "upright" version of the 196 and also has the fuel pump mounted to the timing cover due to the motor mount location. The Scout 800 uses the lay-down 196 with the fuel pump mounted under the intake manifold like on the 152. Thus the camshaft blanks used in each engine are different for the fuel pump eccentric.

The 196 I have currently is gonna remain stock with a standard rebuild eventually as it has severe piston slap on #1. It will be mounted on a run stand only and used for engine component testing (mainly carbs and ignition).
 
Ahhhh, so the 152 is the better bet. So I will start looking for a decent running 152 for the donor. I will be watching the thread for the parts that I will need to "hotrod" the 152. I want to replace the stock stuff and keep it, cause the 80's seem to be fetching some pretty good prices these days when there stock and pretty.
 
Looks like the cylinder head to look for is p/n 432091-c92. For the 345 and 345a there is only one head used.

For the 304 and 304a there were two different heads,... Actually more than that if you take into consideration the "low compression" heads that were used on some of the export stuff.

So this simplifies things....just need any 345 head (that is not cracked!). But along with that head, if used with a 152 you will need "flat top" pistons, not the oem-type "domed" 152 pistons.
 
So any 345 head and flat top pistons. Do you have part #'s on the Chevy rod and bearing kits needed or are the stock rods ok with a semi-mild build? What would you recomend for cam specs, and where do I get one milled?
 
For the cam, we have the 152/196 performance grinds (same for either engine) in stock most of the time here at ihon. New fourbanger cam blanks are not currently available but we May be able to make new ones happen in the future, we're looking ionto that now. So our cams are all regrinds on either the customer's core or one of ours in our "core bank". These are very high quality grinds, fully parco'd (which the oem stuff was not!), and they May be cut in any grind, if ya go too radical though they will need to be welded which is an additional charge, and longer pushrods will have to be custom made (no big deal).

Robert can make a recommendation for a cam for ya once ya have all the other parameters set in stone.

Robert is finalizing the piston/rod setup right now for the stroker, he's not quite ready to "announce" yet.

If ya are looking at a non-stroker, then flat top pistons are available from a few sources, one of 'em we use is silvolite. The stock rods are more than adequate if ya have 'em checked...and then rebuilt if needed.
 
I know the the IH's arent inclinded to be rev machines, but thats mainly due to the inability to breath. With the increased ability to breath with the cam, head swap, a header, and a carb that can supply it with fuel. What are you views with the abilities of the stock valvetrain to handle the increase? What is the reliable "red line" projected to be? Has anyone done a mild "hotrodded" 152?
 
71mtnscout said:
I know the the IH's arent inclinded to be rev machines, but thats mainly due to the inability to breath. With the increased ability to breath with the cam, head swap, a header, and a carb that can supply it with fuel. What are you views with the abilities of the stock valvetrain to handle the increase? What is the reliable "red line" projected to be? Has anyone done a mild "hotrodded" 152?
Click to expand...

Robert's the numbers dude, he can give ya a much better idea about projected performance specs, he deals in the funny car motor arena and really knows "numbers"!

All the oem I-4/sv connecting rods are forged steel per the specs.

There are several chevrolet-pattern valve springs that can be used, and isky also has valve springs for these apps still available. I've been informed by a few pro engine builders (race stuff) that the isky springs are amongst the best in the bizz right now quality-wise. But Robert is the dude with direct experience regarding this stuff.

The valves are massive for this app. Valve seat recession, valve stem elongation/mushroom, etc., I've never seen to be an issue with these motors no matter what fuel was/is used. Some of the heads had induction-hardened seats, some were hard inserts, the valves are stellite. Exhaust valves used rotators (not the early 152 heads though).

With the exception of the "tilt" intake valve positioning, these motors are ideal candidates for pump-up, all the structural components are the real deal!
 
How bout it Robert? Anything to add? Never hotrodded an IH engine, been a Ford guy most of my life......really liked the cleveland engine...............wonder how it could be shoehorned into a Scout?
 
Big cleveland/blue oval fan here myself. Had a mildly built 72' 351 cleveland in a '57 f-100. It was my first vehicle. For some reason, rear tires just didn't last all that long with that truck.

If the platform were a v8 model 800, a fomo engine swap would be no more difficult than most any other block, with engine mounts, wiring harness, and radiator hose routing being the primary hurdles. That gets the engine in, then you've got to get the power to the wheels, which wouldn't be too tough if it was rwd only. 4x4 complicates things quite a bit, but it's been accomplished before. I've seen pics of fomopo baby scouts. I think a boss 302 powered baby Scout would be the cat's meow!
 
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