Loadstar 1600 with 345

Towpainter, as near as I can measure the jugs are 3.889-3.891 and according to spec they should be 8.745-3.8770 so at this point I need to take it to a shop and get their opinion. I did run a hone in there but I don't want to hone to much and the 2 jugs are pitted, not to the touch but you can see them after honing. Time for a pro to look at it. So to answer your question if it has been bored, I am not sure.
I did check ring gap in the cylinder with old rings I am getting about.030 which is more than spec which is .010-.020. File fits are a good possibility, thanks
my wife doesn't say it but I am a cheap ass too lol.

Ron
 
Last edited:
Here are some pics of the motor. Now thinking about it the #3 cylinder May be cracked down in the block which would mean having to sleeve it. That would be worst case.
#3 cylinder
dscf1344.jpg

#7 valve pic
dscf1345.jpg

Head ports
dscf1347.jpg

5 post rockers
dscf1350.jpg

Rocker close up
dscf1349.jpg

Head before cleaning
dscf1354.jpg
 
I went down and did some more cleaning today. I found some more proof that this motor has been rebuilt. The heads are stamped with .005 which tells me they have been planed. Head cleaned up pretty good still have a good final cleaning before paint but I got most of the crud off. Here are a few more pics with a question about the oil filter adapter. You see the one in the pic hangs the oil filter straight down, on a Scout they angle back about 45*. Will a Scout's adapter fit on this motor or are the ports different also?
dscf1363.jpg

dscf1364.jpg

dscf1365.jpg

dscf1366.jpg


Ron
 
This is a great score ron!

That oil filter header is typical onna medium duty app, along with the filter element that is about twice the volume of the equivalent unit used in light line stuff. It will bolt to any "3 hole" block, doesn't appear that one uses the "adapter" plate between the header and block as used in the light duty stuff.

We'll be looking at possibly a 55gal. Barrel full of those same headers inna 'bout two weeks.

There are quite a few different headers that were used throughout the I-4/sv engine apps. Hey will fit in some engine/chassis applications and will also accept the shorter spin-on cartridge. Some others mount the cartridge straight back, down at a slight angle, straight up, and up at a slight angle! And the same is found for the earlier canister filter assemblies that included a drain plug in the design of the canister.
 
Ron,
looking at this image, seems that the exhaust valves have receded in to their seats. Common on old motors designed for leaded gas if run hard on unleaded. But it May be an illusion.

Robert

dscf1354.jpg
 
Easy to verify by measuring the spring retainer to spring seat distance after removing the springs and any shims. Compare the measurment on all 4 exhaust valves. They should be the same +/- .025" . That is the max variation I will allow on a motor I build.

If you are planning on using the heads, I would recommend having hard seats installed. The valve sitting in a pocket will create a shrouding effect and severely impede flow @ all lift ranges.. Cost is usualy around $25.00- $40.00 per seat installed.

Robert
 
Thanks Robert, I have ordered a new valve spring compressor and I need that before I can inspect all the valves. So I will check as you advised.
Ron
 
I finally got around and pulled the camshaft on the 345. I though I would be able to measure the lobe to check for wear. But the only spec in the manual was for the journals, they are with in spec. Is there a stock spec for measuring the high spot of the lobes? Or do I have to measure some other way? Visually the cam looks good as do the cam bearings. I am still looking at the bearing spit holes to see if they need to be enlarged.
Ron
 
What I've always done ron is simply measure the "od" of the cam lobe from the base circle, and do that on each "side" of the lobe and record the data. Then repeat for all lobes for comparison.

The other way would be jig it in precision vee blocks on two journals as Robert has described and use a dial indicator to record "lift" on each lobe.

Since ya have the cam out now, can ya post the p/n on the rear of the cam gear ? I don't have a medium duty parts list, and we need to know "which" cam gear was used in the loadstar-variation engine and compare to the numbers we do have now. The cam and crank gears are a matched set (as are service part gear sets), so the crank gear p/n won't matter.
 
If you are planning on using the heads, I would recommend having hard seats installed. The valve sitting in a pocket will create a shrouding effect and severely impede flow @ all lift ranges.. Cost is usualy around $25.00- $40.00 per seat installed.

Robert

hmmmm, I thought (do not really know) that all sv engines had the stellite (hardened) valve seats in their engines (heads)???

As opposed to the chryfordolet(?) engines of similiar vintage...

Or, is it just "smog" IH sv engines???

I thought that unleaded gas caused "serious" wear in heads without hardened seats (without using additives).

My "experience" is limited.
 
I don't know about "all" sv compared to smog sv. But the 61 and 65 iirc were not inserted. Of course I could be wrong.

I know that they did have stelite faced exhausts valves.

Robert
 
Dave and I have had this "valve seat" discussion several times now. His experience with these motors dates to working with stuff as far back as whatever powered the kb series variations, though he started working on new IH vehicles in about '67.

Because the older stuff always had induction hardened valve seats in the heads, the "erosion" that plagued/plagues nearly all non-industrial/commercial engines back in the day when lead was eliminated from fuel never really affected IH stuff.

When I did valve work on IH heads when teaching that stuff, I know that the seats in IH heads were a real bitch to cut nicely with stones, I preferred using a motorized "cutter" system (far more accurate than a freshly-dressed stone) made by neway:

valve seat & guide restoration

I'm attaching an extensive .pdf document dating from April, 1973 that is the definitive reference for engine engineering data for the 6-258, v-304a, v-345, v-392, and v-400 motors used in light line stuff at that point in time. All the details are revealed.

As ya can see in that doc, the 345 and 392 had exhaust seat inserts, the 304a did not. 345 and 392 had stellite valve faces on the exhaust, 304a did not.

Take the time to read through all that data, there are many differences amongst the sv engine engine variations at that point in time.
 

Attachments

  • LL V-8 Info.pdf
    727.5 KB · Views: 817
IH had an interesting way of mixing and maching parts. The 152's I have done over have both had stelite,hard faced valves. In fact I have on on my desk at work. I wonder if the 4 bangers got special treatment because of the expected duty cycle they would endure???

Rk
 
No doubt in the later years many service parts were "substituted". Sometimes with documentation to the dealer base, sometimes not.

And because nearly all of the light duty engines in all configs ended up in some kind of companion ag/industrial/marine configuration which were completely separate applications, there is much we can't find out about the hierarchy without alotta digging!

One of my contacts who was "there" tells me that while there was basically a single foundry point for engine components sourced in-house by IH, the various bits and pieces were sent out to two different assembly points for final machine and buildup. One for "motor vehicle/truck", and one for the ag/industrial side of the bizz. And now, 40+ years on, we see this stuff blended in ways that could never be done on purpose! Then to add more confusion, we have all the aftermarket parts sources that were active back in the day, but have not continued parts supply in recent history.

In times when there was a "backorder" sitch regarding service parts at the dealer level, a knowledgeable dealer went to the "ag" side of the service parts distribution system and obtained what was needed through that channel though the various "divisions"/factions within IH tried to discourage that workaround.

One more reason why a calendar year compilation of IH-issued service and parts "letters" (bulletins) would be an additional profit center for those folks that deal in repop IH literature.
 
Thanks first of all for the discussion, I'm learning a lot! The number on the timing gear is: 3336b
the journal measurements are as follows:
#1: 2.098
#2: 2.086
#3: 2.078
#4: 2.069
#5: 2.058
just Under spec, according to my manual for a Scout.

Now what appears to be the real bad news, I measured all the lobes starting from the gear to the back. They seem to be all over the place. This was measured with a digital slide caliper measuring the diameter of lobe (tallest point to lowest), I will verifiy with a micrometer tommorow.

Starting with first lobe: 1.745, 1.725, 1.717, 1.707, 1.719, 1.686, 1.715, 1.714, 1.721, 1.717, 1.716, 1.740, 1.714, 1.690, 1.693, 1.721.

Thanks
ron
 
Ron,
the journal diameter is less of a concern. Especially if a caliper is used. A caliper is a guess stick at best not to offend anyone but +/- .003 on a good one is all I would say. The journals look to have the .010 diameter difference they should.

Always use a .0001 graduation micrometer for critical engine measurements.

The lobe is another thing .055 difference between the largest to the smallest.. Time for a new one.:(

you can measure lobe lift by the minor diameter and the major dimension(your posted measurements), subtract the minor from the major for the net lift of the cam. This only works for short duration cams like the IH uses. Possible the cam is a regrind but I would not expect the variation.

Rk
 
Ribert, I hear ya about the slide caliper. My micrometer is at work I wll bring it home tomorrow and recheck. As far off as the caliper shows I trend to agree the cam is shot.
Ron
 
Michael, thanks for posting the document on the engines -- interesting to "read".

Off topic... (again:gringrin: )

hp numbers are interesting, also....

392 w/dual exhaust shows 189 hp net --

the "data plate" on the door of my 73 t/a "shows" 235.9 hp (.9 hp?) net -- 392 CA smog, p/s, p/b, dual exhaust, no a/c...
 
Your timing gear is an aftermarket piece. 3336s is the aftermarket industry standard part # for the set, used by cloyes & melling as is, with a 221- prefix it becomes a sealed power # ect.

How about posting pics of the cam and lifters, particularly the lobes that aren't quite measuring up.
 
I will do that eric, might be tomorrow night though. Just glad tomorrow is Friday. I have the 75 in my shop for a little rust repair before winter gets here. With the 75 and the 74 now this 345 on the engine stand I am not lacking for things to do.
Ron
 
robertc said:
michael, thanks for posting the document on the engines -- interesting to "read".

Off topic... (again:gringrin: )

hp numbers are interesting, also....

392 w/dual exhaust shows 189 hp net --

the "data plate" on the door of my 73 t/a "shows" 235.9 hp (.9 hp?) net -- 392 CA smog, p/s, p/b, dual exhaust, no a/c...
Click to expand...

Robertc...I no longer have access to sae "j" standards.

But...iirc, the j-245 engine ratings system referred to in that doc were part of a general "overhaul" of how production engines were rated based upon more "real world" testing against a standard set of operating conditions...with all accessories intact and at more realistic environmental conditions in the dyno cells.

This was part and parcel of the major upgrade in emissions standards and of course was all spelled out by the feds but "adopted" by the sae as standard practice so it could appear that the manufacturers and the sae were "in charge" instead of the bureaucrats.

There was a "grace period" for releasing this type information and incorporating in vehicle data/documentation...just as the 17 digit vin was phased in and did not magically appear overnight for all oem manufacturers. But all oems had to move to the federal 17 digit vin by m/y '75 iirc (May have been '76??).

Is that confusing??? Then check out that spec for "ama taxable horsepower"!!
 
Ok I'a back with pictures and new numbers. I re-measured all lobes of the cam with a mic. Measurement as follows:

height --- width --- lift
1.746--- 1.492--- .254
1.725--- 1.497--- .228
1.725--- 1.494--- .226
1.7235-- 1.470--- .2535
1.723--- 1.471--- .252
1.687--- 1.461--- .226
1.716--- 1.491--- .225
1.741--- 1.489--- .252
1.7255-- 1.474--- .2515
1.714--- 1.498--- .216
1.711--- 1.484--- .227
1.7405-- 1.485--- .2555
1.714--- 1.463--- .251
1.688--- 1.464--- .224
1.691--- 1.467--- .224
1.724--- 1.471--- .253

now the difference or the height of the lobe is .058 thats alot.
From my manual for a Scout valve lift should be .44 for intake and .395 for exhaust, no where close.
Needless to say cam has some wierd wear in my opinion. Here are some pics of the 2 smallest lobes:
lobe #6
lobe6pic1.jpg

Lobe #6 again
lobe6pic2.jpg

Lobe #6 again
lobe6pic3.jpg

Lobe #14
lobe14.jpg

Cam gear
dscf1373.jpg

Looking closely at the lobes it looks like they are shiny on one side not all the way across.
 
Last edited:
Ron,
the lobe lift is multiplied by the rocker arm ratio 1.6-1.75. The sv has a rr of 1.75 based on your numbers. I calculated the rr when I went through my 1/2 sv and sorry to say don't remember exactly but 1.69 for one and a different rr for the other rings a bell. Some books publish 1.6 but I don't thing that is right that works out for the two lobe lift values. The lifters look decent from what I can see.

Still even with the variation in lift I would replace it.. Now is teh time when it is easy.

Robert
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top