I have a 73 Scout II 304/auto/4x4. I replaced all the lifters on the pass side of the motor and instead of one noisy worn out one they all make noise. Im not sure what I did wrong. I soaked them in oil, primed them, lubed them, and set them in right. None of of pushrods are bent. Even after priming them, the new lifters were easier to compress by alot. The old set barely moved. What is the proper torque for the rocker shaft bolts. I only let it run for a little more than 10 min before the clattering scared me to turn it off and I havent fired it up since. Help? Oh, I made sure all the bolts and pushrods went back in the same places.
lifter/rocker issue
- Thread starter TomScout
- Start date
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Tom,
do you know what cam is in your engine? Is it a stock cam or a upgraded version? Has it ever been reground? I ask because each will reduce lifter preload. All lifters are not the same and the push rod socket locations will vary some maybe .010 from one manufacturer to another which is not significant on a properly setup engine and operating engine.
If you could take some well focused pictures of the old lifter wear face it May give us some additional info to help diagnose your problem. We May be able to see if you have a badly worn cam.
While the lifter noise is bothersome, it won't hurt to run it for a while at low speeds (in the driveway). First we need to verify good oil flow to the rocker assembly. As you May already know IH sv's like to eat cam bearings and that can be one possible cause of poor lifter filling and the resulting noise. In some cases it can take a while to work all of the air out of the new lifters. A few run cycles May be needed.
Before you start is again remove the offending valve cover so you can run the engine and witness rocker assembly oil flow. If you have a extra valve cover you can cut it in half and install the lower half for a oil splash guard. I simply use card board. Take a couple of photos for us to see the oiling.
Lets do these few things first before we get to deep. We like to follow a basic step by step diagnostic process to minimize the confusion.
do you know what cam is in your engine? Is it a stock cam or a upgraded version? Has it ever been reground? I ask because each will reduce lifter preload. All lifters are not the same and the push rod socket locations will vary some maybe .010 from one manufacturer to another which is not significant on a properly setup engine and operating engine.
If you could take some well focused pictures of the old lifter wear face it May give us some additional info to help diagnose your problem. We May be able to see if you have a badly worn cam.
While the lifter noise is bothersome, it won't hurt to run it for a while at low speeds (in the driveway). First we need to verify good oil flow to the rocker assembly. As you May already know IH sv's like to eat cam bearings and that can be one possible cause of poor lifter filling and the resulting noise. In some cases it can take a while to work all of the air out of the new lifters. A few run cycles May be needed.
Before you start is again remove the offending valve cover so you can run the engine and witness rocker assembly oil flow. If you have a extra valve cover you can cut it in half and install the lower half for a oil splash guard. I simply use card board. Take a couple of photos for us to see the oiling.
Lets do these few things first before we get to deep. We like to follow a basic step by step diagnostic process to minimize the confusion.
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Tom...
There is definitive information regarding all the nuances and anomalies of the I-4 and sv engine lubrication system (which includes the entire valve train) contained right here in this sub-forum. Including a sticky at the top of this forum regarding the "lifter" issue.
You need to spend some quality time reading through all pertinent threads so you can get just a glimpse of what issues May be present.
Then you need to perform the diagnostic process and determine what is the root cause of any issue.
For instance...I'm involved with another engine right now that had new lifters installed sourced from the biggest name in the aftermarket performance camshaft/valve train industry. Those lifters are shit! Two of 'em did not even have all the internal components installed, yet they passed some sort of "quality audit" at the point of manufacture???
Yesterday in my shop...I worked with one of our forum members here in bringing his 196 to life in a credible manner after others had scruud over the "tuning" side of the equation. Including recently installing a set of "new" lifters. Dam thang banged like a bitch because two of the lifters (at least) were collapsing. It quietened down after 15>20 minute run time but still ticks continuously on at least two rockers, and I'm hard of hearing. And after it sits for 24 hours or so...it will repeat the same cycle I'm certain, I don't have to go check this! I see it over and over with these old motors brought back to life after sitting non-rotated for years.
While my experience tells me what is the root cause of yesterday's lifter tick party...that motor still must be diagnosed to confirm. And it doesn't even have a reliably functioning oil pressure gauge on it...it "comes and goes"! Maybe the oil pressure is "coming and going"??
If you have lifters that won't harden off inna pan of oil, then something is wrong with 'em. I don't care if they are "new" or 200k-milers. If they will harden in the pan, but won't harden in the engine, then they are not receiving oil in sufficient quantity/pressure.
Pull the rocker cover and diagnose, everything ya need to know for doing that is explained in this forum.
There is definitive information regarding all the nuances and anomalies of the I-4 and sv engine lubrication system (which includes the entire valve train) contained right here in this sub-forum. Including a sticky at the top of this forum regarding the "lifter" issue.
You need to spend some quality time reading through all pertinent threads so you can get just a glimpse of what issues May be present.
Then you need to perform the diagnostic process and determine what is the root cause of any issue.
For instance...I'm involved with another engine right now that had new lifters installed sourced from the biggest name in the aftermarket performance camshaft/valve train industry. Those lifters are shit! Two of 'em did not even have all the internal components installed, yet they passed some sort of "quality audit" at the point of manufacture???
Yesterday in my shop...I worked with one of our forum members here in bringing his 196 to life in a credible manner after others had scruud over the "tuning" side of the equation. Including recently installing a set of "new" lifters. Dam thang banged like a bitch because two of the lifters (at least) were collapsing. It quietened down after 15>20 minute run time but still ticks continuously on at least two rockers, and I'm hard of hearing. And after it sits for 24 hours or so...it will repeat the same cycle I'm certain, I don't have to go check this! I see it over and over with these old motors brought back to life after sitting non-rotated for years.
While my experience tells me what is the root cause of yesterday's lifter tick party...that motor still must be diagnosed to confirm. And it doesn't even have a reliably functioning oil pressure gauge on it...it "comes and goes"! Maybe the oil pressure is "coming and going"??
If you have lifters that won't harden off inna pan of oil, then something is wrong with 'em. I don't care if they are "new" or 200k-milers. If they will harden in the pan, but won't harden in the engine, then they are not receiving oil in sufficient quantity/pressure.
Pull the rocker cover and diagnose, everything ya need to know for doing that is explained in this forum.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Just soaking them won't fill the lifters with oil. You need to pump them while submerged to get the air worked out. Anyway you don't need to pump up lifters before you install them, just oil the outside and the pushrod socket while you stick them in. That makes it a bunch easier to set the rocker assembly and bolt it down evenly.
Tonka Toy
Member
After reading these posts, my short hairs started 'a risin' up. I didn't think that you could get away with new lifters and an old cam. Here's why I am asking:
many years ago, I had a poncho with a 455 in it. She was getting a little long in the tooth and a couple of the lifters were going south. I purchased a new set from the local parts house, and got her back on the road. A few hundred miles later, one of my new lifters seperated, and the bottom half jammed the cam and stopped everything. Well, the #3 rod and piston tried to keep going, right out the bottom of the pan, but essentially it stopped.
anyway, the subsequent investigation led me to learn that new lifters and old cams don't mix. Something about the cam lobe being angled slightly to spin the lifter in it's bore, and the new lifter's tighter fit, coupled with a worn cam, makes for poor bedfellows. At least that's what the guy at the machine shop told me when I told him why I had the block in for him to check out.
So, was this guy smokin' the ganja or what? And will this have any influence on the issues we're talking about here?
many years ago, I had a poncho with a 455 in it. She was getting a little long in the tooth and a couple of the lifters were going south. I purchased a new set from the local parts house, and got her back on the road. A few hundred miles later, one of my new lifters seperated, and the bottom half jammed the cam and stopped everything. Well, the #3 rod and piston tried to keep going, right out the bottom of the pan, but essentially it stopped.
anyway, the subsequent investigation led me to learn that new lifters and old cams don't mix. Something about the cam lobe being angled slightly to spin the lifter in it's bore, and the new lifter's tighter fit, coupled with a worn cam, makes for poor bedfellows. At least that's what the guy at the machine shop told me when I told him why I had the block in for him to check out.
So, was this guy smokin' the ganja or what? And will this have any influence on the issues we're talking about here?
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Some times you can get away with it as a spot gap to a new cam, but it is not the preferred way to do it. I have done it on s few where the lifter had chronic pumping issues and made noise regular. On a real low mileage cam you are probably ok as long as some taper is there. IH engines have so much lifter to bore clearance (.003)that the lifter can simply rock over and the taper will not wear off. The taper is only .001-.0015 depending on grinder.
Many years ago, I had a poncho with a 455 in it. She was getting a little long in the tooth and a couple of the lifters were going south. I purchased a new set from the local parts house, and got her back on the road. A few hundred miles later, one of my new lifters seperated, and the bottom half jammed the cam and stopped everything. Well, the #3 rod and piston tried to keep going, right out the bottom of the pan, but essentially it stopped.
ouch!!! Yea there have been many stories regarding lifter bodies breaking and being digested by the bottom end. Not a pretty sight. I think it was isolated to a particular brand of lifters. Iirc they were imports but I really don't remember. I would not expect that to be a normal failure mode of new lifters on an old cam but it May be possible if teh lobe is worn enough so teh oiling groove slips below the bore. Accelerated wear would though.
A common lobe wear profile is a rounding of the lobe face and accompanying lifter wearing concave . If a nice flat lifter is then run in the rounded lobe the point of contact would be a small spot. That could gall up and grind off in a hurry. I have seen lifters that ground right through the face and the guts of the lifter were set free.
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tonka toy;9671 said:anyway, the subsequent investigation led me to learn that new lifters and old cams don't mix . something about the cam lobe being angled slightly to spin the lifter in it's bore, and the new lifter's tighter fit, coupled with a worn cam, makes for poor bedfellows . at least that's what the guy at the machine shop told me when I told him why I had the block in for him to check out .
so, was this guy smokin' the ganja or what ? and will this have any influence on the issues we're talking about here ? [/quote ]
if somebody decides to swap in new lifters on an old cam . run it for 100 miles and cut the oil filter open and look for metal . if you see no metal run it . May want to look again at the next oil change .
but he still May have been taking a hit now and then .
I agree with what robertk states about putting new lifters on an "old" cam.
I also agree that it was manufacturing quality that caused the failure of the lifter in the 455.
I recall seeing a couple of "broken" lifters at my corvair mechanic's shop a long time ago. They broke at a "line" / "indentation" about a third of the way up from the bottom of the lifter.
Even if the lifter is not "pre-primed" ("pumped up"), it should pump up within a minute or two of starting the engine -- and the noise goes away if the rocker arm / push rod is adjusted correctly.
Tom, I still think you should supply the brand / part no of the new lifter you used -- just for "verification" purposes.
I also agree that it was manufacturing quality that caused the failure of the lifter in the 455.
I recall seeing a couple of "broken" lifters at my corvair mechanic's shop a long time ago. They broke at a "line" / "indentation" about a third of the way up from the bottom of the lifter.
Even if the lifter is not "pre-primed" ("pumped up"), it should pump up within a minute or two of starting the engine -- and the noise goes away if the rocker arm / push rod is adjusted correctly.
Tom, I still think you should supply the brand / part no of the new lifter you used -- just for "verification" purposes.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Every engine brand/design will have it's own issues on many levels. We're only generalizing here and that does nothing to address the topic of this thread. Fords are not chevs, and chryslers are not IH, even though they all burn gasoline (if we can still call it that).
In regards to only the IH-produced I-4/sv series, I have no problem in using new lifters of the proper design and specification on an in-use camshaft if the installation is correctly handled. I do it over and over with no problem if the pre-lube is done properly and the entire lubrication system diagnostic process tells me it's "ok".
And we have beat the lifter "quality and design" horse to death in this sub-forum regarding IH-app hydraulic lifters, we know there are "good" ones and we know there are ones to avoid! Hell, there are only two current manufacturers of these items, and only one of those is worth a shit! We've already done the homework and confirmed that fact...review all the factual information that robertk has posted! And he's "testing" that detail right now in his 152 with a non-oem camshaft.
By the way, in my personal pos 392/pickup, I've now accumulated a nominal 18k miles on a lifter replacement. And...due to the "different" design of the I-4/sv lubrication system, if I park for 24 hours+ with the nose uphill, two lifters knock like hell until oil pressure stabilizes under any ambient temp condition. If I park nose downhill, that never occurs. That is a design anomaly and is absolutely not detrimental to anything if the noise subsides. If the lifter noise does not subside, then I know I'm two quarts low on oil and sukkin' air. This is not conditional based upon "which" brand of oil filter, or "which" viscosity oil I'm running at any point in time.
And to "test" this concept, it's super ez to simply pop a valve cover, pop a push rod out, and fish the lifter right up and out of it's hole and look at it! No need to remove a rocker assembly, break a torque, or anything else, could not be any simpler to verify.
In regards to only the IH-produced I-4/sv series, I have no problem in using new lifters of the proper design and specification on an in-use camshaft if the installation is correctly handled. I do it over and over with no problem if the pre-lube is done properly and the entire lubrication system diagnostic process tells me it's "ok".
And we have beat the lifter "quality and design" horse to death in this sub-forum regarding IH-app hydraulic lifters, we know there are "good" ones and we know there are ones to avoid! Hell, there are only two current manufacturers of these items, and only one of those is worth a shit! We've already done the homework and confirmed that fact...review all the factual information that robertk has posted! And he's "testing" that detail right now in his 152 with a non-oem camshaft.
By the way, in my personal pos 392/pickup, I've now accumulated a nominal 18k miles on a lifter replacement. And...due to the "different" design of the I-4/sv lubrication system, if I park for 24 hours+ with the nose uphill, two lifters knock like hell until oil pressure stabilizes under any ambient temp condition. If I park nose downhill, that never occurs. That is a design anomaly and is absolutely not detrimental to anything if the noise subsides. If the lifter noise does not subside, then I know I'm two quarts low on oil and sukkin' air. This is not conditional based upon "which" brand of oil filter, or "which" viscosity oil I'm running at any point in time.
And to "test" this concept, it's super ez to simply pop a valve cover, pop a push rod out, and fish the lifter right up and out of it's hole and look at it! No need to remove a rocker assembly, break a torque, or anything else, could not be any simpler to verify.
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Its just one. One lifter will not pump up while running. Its the same one, third up from the back on the passenger side, so that means there is something blocking the oil passage to the lifter? I have swapped it out with another, I bought more than 16 because I knew the Scout would throw me some lame curve ball crap problem. How convenient. I can push the rocker and watch the pushrod compress the lifter.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Tom,
run the engine sans valve cover and look through the pushrod hole for oil coming out from around the lifter. If you see oil it is getting oil. The lifter oil hole is large enough that I doubt anything would block it. I suppose it is possible but a real long shot. You could try to remove the lifter and using a wire(copper) clear the oil hole.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
One other thing, do you have the original lifter? If so how did the face look?
I just read this 3 page essay here about the noise and rocker setup. It specifically said no more than 12 ft lbs of torque on the bolts holding the shaft assembly down. I have now had 3 friends verify my original IH Scout shop manual that tells me 15 ft lbs. Is this I typo? I have already torqued this to 15ft lbs and ran the motor. What are the odds that I didnt screw it up.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
15ftlbs on a 5/16 bolt should be ok. The stands will hold up to that. I have pulled factory original built engines that were way tighter that 20 with no ill effects
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
I just read this 3 page essay here about the noise and rocker setup. It specifically said no more than 12 ft lbs of torque on the bolts holding the shaft assembly down. I have now had 3 friends verify my original IH Scout shop manual that tells me 15 ft lbs. Is this I typo? I have already torqued this to 15ft lbs and ran the motor. What are the odds that I didnt screw it up.
Robert is correct...that torque spec is a "standard" setting and was never "corrected for the particular application of the rocker stands.
The capscrew is a grade five. The rocker stand is a very poor quality injection molding done in aluminum and really "soft". Of the 100+ rockers stands I'm "reconditioning" now, about 20% of 'em are wasted due to cracks through the bolt hole from over tightening at some point in the past.
Also, the torque factor callout for that location was not "corrected" for the use of sealant on the threads as must be done. Sealant creates the same condition as lubricating the threads...that in turn "changes" engineered torque values along with the use of the special, thick/hardened washer under the head of the oem bolts. And to compound this...the oem bolts have a nylon "button" insert in the threads which aids in sealing and creates a "prevailing torque" condition for that particular assembly. IH just did not do the homework on the "torque spec" for that component, it should have had it's own engineered callout...but they dam sure wasted several pages dealing with hydraulic lifters!
Having removed many broken off rocker stand bolts, helicoiled at least three heads with stripped threads, and replaced many rocker stands destroyed from overtightening (with the wrong washers installed)...I developed my own process which insures no damage while retaining the rocker assembly just fine.
Any IH service publication is a "guide". They were full of inaccuracies that were "corrected" through the use of "service letters" back in the day. The manuals currently being published are reproduced from masters that May have been missing pages and were last updated at least 30+ years ago if at all! These references were intended for use by trained mechanics and service personnel, same for the parts lists. Never intended to be an enjoyable read by the fireside or a introduction to auto repair.
I got it to stop ticking with new lifters, now it knocks on startup like usual. Between 140-180 degrees, it runs fine, but after about 20-30 min of highway driving at normal oil pressure and engine temp, the noise comes back on the same side and wont go away until the engine cools down all the way. It is not running hotter than usual and its cold weather here, I use 20w-50 oil. Should I try a different oil?