Ignition System Performance Upgrades

Here's a nice website that deals with weatherpak stuff with great "tech" that explains the background and use of this stuff:

weather pack environmentally sealed connectors | weatherpack terminals and seals | white products cleveland ohio

The actual components are available at any full service auto parts house locally, sometimes found in the oregon-based company packaging such as:

noble wire & terminal corp. - the complete wholesale line of  terminals, wire and wiring devices,  nationwide

If you think (and I certainly agree!!) that this electron-schnizz ignition stuff has really awakened potential in yore four-banger motors, wait until the distributors are rebuilt and the endplay is adjusted!!

If you, lyle, and the rest of the IHSTO krew wanna come down for a one-day training session at binder u. On distributor rebuild, we can make that happen! I always have sample sparkers tore down here, I'm doing three mag trigger conversions (three different levels) on Holley sparkers right now. And everything regarding any IH-pattern distributor is common to both the I-4 stuff and the sv stuff (except the cylinder count on the point cam or reluctor, and the cap).
 
Let's look at another variation of a performance ignition system upgrade.

This system is now installed on a '73 t'all with performance built 392 (9.0:1 cr and cam) described in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/readers-rides/4072-dd-known-chunk.html

As seen in that thread, the major drivability issue was created when the engine was "professionally" rebuilt because an attempt was made to retain the entire oem emissions system including the carburetion and ignition system. That simply won't work and I have no doubt that is why the vehicle was parked after acquiring 3,000 miles of runtime over 20 years ago!

I've now taken care of the fuel system issues and a carburetor has been installed that is adequate for the engine spec though the final dial-in has yet to be done.

That leaves the ignition system needing attention. So what I've done here is typical of our ihon members who are looking at performing an ignition system upgrade but have a budget to work within. And that starts with the distributor.

So...in this case I'm going to leave the breaker point-equipped distributor alone initially. Again, typical of what most of our customers face. This Holley distributor was replaced with an a-1 cardone reman unit at the time the engine was built, so it's as fresh as can be. The dwell has been set to 30* and base timing performed. The distributor has an oem advance curve suitable for egr...so that also has been left alone. All we're going to do here is add an aftermarket capacitive discharge box and a matching coil to the breaker point distributor.

By incorporating the cd box into the ignition system, the current across the breaker points becomes almost nil, that in turn adds greatly to the life expectancy of any breaker point set. The deciding factor regarding point life then becomes wear on the rubbing block, these points are now capable of running 50k miles if the point cam is kept lubricated.

So the system as you see it here consists of a Holley point distributor (stock), a new prestolite distributor cap with male terminals (modded to properly install on the Holley distributor body), msd helical-wound plug cables (8mm od insulation), an msd blaster ss "e" core ignition coil that matches the output characteristics of the cd box, and an msd 6a capacitive discharge box.

The msd box is virtually identical in operation and performance to the mallory 6 box described in the earlier posts. I have no preference for one over the other, the "digital vs. Analog" stuff doesn't make a shit to me! In fact, msd actually buys the mallory digital box and re-labels it under their own brand! Likewise...a "rev limiter" feature is certainly useless on an IH tractor motor (even a built one).

The add-on auxiliary fuse/distribution panel is not part of the system, that is simply a convenience point for adding in additional vehicle system loads to the battery. The two circuit breakers seen in that panel are for the electric trailer brake controller and for protecting the charging line that feeds the trailer (dual batteries) also. In the future...a sound system might be added to the mix, an underhood work light, and an auxiliary b+ power connector.

The msd box incorporates internal circuit protection and should not be connected to a fused b+ power source. In this case, b+ for the box is simply taken right off the additional battery feed to the fuse block. The msd box harness is then grounded right to the inner fender which has been properly cleaned and bonded to the negative side of the battery/charging system.

The oem coil/mount was simply removed intact and stored in the truck box for an emergency backup in case the msd system ever fails. The oem coil wiring connectors (including the "resistor" wire) were insulated and taped back into the loom also where they are easily accessible. No oem wiring is used with this system other than the distributor breaker point wire run that connects to the msd box. Everything about this wiring work is easily reversible on the side of the road if need be.
 

Attachments

  • MSD Ignition System.jpg
    MSD Ignition System.jpg
    88 KB · Views: 2,244
Last edited:
This shot shows the Holley distributor with a prestolite male terminal cap installed. Proper internal phasing of the internal terminals was verified against rotor position and rotor tip clearance also validated so no internal "collision" could occur!

There are several variations of the prestolite cap out there in the parts supply chain, many with different design internal terminations...this one is the "flat" terminal design. This particular cap is a borg warner "select" grade (brass terminals not aluminum), part number c200.

In order to use this cap on a Holley distributor, the locater keyway must be cut out with a razor knife so that it can properly engage the locater tab on the Holley vacuum advance bracket. If that is done, then internal rotor phasing will be correct for this workaround.

Using the male secondary terminals allows much improved access for connection points, and they are much more secure than the typical female cap terminations used with the Holley cap.

The plug cables are just off-the-shelf universal msd streetfire helical wound items in 8mm insulation. Plenty of length was provided for when I crimped up the cables so that in the future a blingy cable standoff can be added.

The coil is an msd blaster ss (I hate all these marketing bullshit names these people come up with!!). That "e" core coil (and any similar item) should only be used with an appropriate variation of an add-on cd box sourced from msd, mallory, jacobs (now defunct), accel, crane (now defunct), pertronix, etc. It is not suitable at all for use with either an oem ignition system or a converted distributor system (say a pertronix install), no matter what the manufacturer sez! An additional ballast resistor will not make it suitable..do not use except with a cd box!!!!!

If...ya wish to take complete advantage of what the cd ignition system is capable of providing, a suitable "low resistance" coil simply must be incorporated also. Otherwise, ya gotta half-assed system!

This coil has a nominal spec'd primary resistance of 0.55ohms at ambient temp. It has a rated output potential of in excess of 40kv with no duty cycle (that means it can run at 40kv 24/7). A "stock"/oem coil has a rated potential (with duty cycle) of approximately 20kv, most will sign off at around 15kv in continuous operation at underhood temperature.
 

Attachments

  • MSD Coil_Holley Distributor.jpg
    MSD Coil_Holley Distributor.jpg
    91.7 KB · Views: 3,573
This is the msd 6a cd box.

Those come with a type of rubber "lord" mount set that are total crap. Same for the coil. They will not bear the weight of the box (or coil) if mounted to a vertical surface, and in fact will shear when ya simply try and snug 'em up. Toss 'em in the trash and then mount the box with some plastic spacers of some sort to insure air circulation underneath. Same for the coil. Neither the box nor the coil should be grounded through mount points. The cd box circuitry is grounded through it's wiring harness connection, a coil body is never grounded!!!

Wiring instructions are included with these units and are also available online as a download. The various wiring instructions cover every conceivable installation scenario with any type of distributor trigger. Do not "improvise" the wiring of these boxes, follow the directions!

The end of the msd box opposite the main wiring harness has two sub-pigtails. The single black connector is for hooking up some tachometers (not all). The other duplex connector is for use with a distributor harness for a magnetic (mag) trigger system such as found in many of the msd distributors, "some" mallory units, delco hei (sometimes forgoing the internal hei amplifier module), and the typical conversions done on IH/Holley distributors for the sv application. When the box is connected to breaker points, a pertronix conversion, etc., the mag trigger duplex connector is simply left open and does not have to be jumpered.

If...the box is going to be incorporated into a Holley gold box electronic ignition system (or prestolite electronic distributor), then special wiring instructions are supplied.

A single ignition-switched b+ feed is connected to the msd (or mallory) box. No "resistance wire" is used for that connection as it needs b+ at all times. That circuit turns the box on and off (thus turns the ignition on and off), actual power for the internal box circuitry is provided through the separate power and ground wire runs connected directly to the battery or in this case to an auxiliary battery connection point.

That's it! If either the coil shown or a similar unit from another supplier is used, then the plug gap May be opened to no ore than 0.045" in order to take advantage of the much higher potential for ionizing the plug gap.

Once this system is installed and operational, you should immediately perceive an increase in overall idle quality and "smoothness" if the carburetion ya have is in decent shape. In fact... You can even improve idle quality with a careful adjustment of the idle mixture screws no doubt since now you are experiencing a much more efficient "burn" in the combustion chambers at idle. And if the burn is improved at idle, it's gonna be improved across the entire rpm range also.

So what is left to complete this upgrade? That would be to incorporate a distributor with some sort of electronic trigger to do away with the mechanical breaker points. A pertronix install is the most common conversion and works just fine with the msd stuff. Same for a mallory unilite distributor if an entire replacement unit is needed. Or a homebrew mag trigger conversion of the oem Holley distributor.
 

Attachments

  • MSD 6A Box.jpg
    MSD 6A Box.jpg
    81.4 KB · Views: 2,536
mastiff said:
right now I've got an msd6 going with this coil:

msd ignition 8222 - msd blaster high vibration ignition coils - overview - summitracing.com

I think you are saying that this is not the right coil to get the most from the msd?

Also, what should I look for to know whether my delco distributor is in good mechanical shape?

Great stuff!
Click to expand...

It's all in the specifications for coils, not in the smokeblowbullshit marketing hype.

The msd 8222 coil you have chosen has a primary resistance factor of a nominal 0.70ohms, so that is a nice match for the 6 series cd box. That is considered a "low" primary resistance coil. Low is a figurative term meaning it's much lower resistance than an oem canister coil which for an I-4 application would be in the 2.5>3.0ohm range when used in inductive ignition mode.

That coil cannot be used in any fashion as a simple replacement for a stock breaker point system, no matter how many ballast resistors ya stack on the wire run! It must be used only with the msd 6 (or similar) box.

Delco distributors are generally bulletproof and the most durable of all similar units. The biggest issue that I see with any distributor is extremely excessive endplay (up and down movement of the shaft). I set up all IH distributors (whether cast iron as in the delco or aluminum) for an endplay of no more than 0.015". That is done after total disassembly/inspection and cleaning.

Second most common issue is the breaker plate and vacuum advance operation. The breaker plate must be clean and free to rotate when actuated by the vacuum can and the ground system must be perfectly clean, any resistance introduced into the ground path from lack of service and cleanliness will kill a breaker point ignition, the total resistance through the point wire, through the points to ground must be as low as possible (under 1.0 ohm). Typical new breaker point sets have a resistance of between 1.0 and more than 3.0 ohms due to microscopic manufacturing debris and anti-corrosion lube left over from the manufacturing process. New breaker point sets must always be cleaned before installation. The tungsten contacts get burnished with a strip of flexstone (made for that purpose) or 320 emery paper, then douched with contact cleaner and tested with an ohmmeter on the bench and after installation.

A delco I-4 distributor must have dwell set to 70*>74*, that is considerably different compared to the dwell setting for the Holley I-4 sparker.
 
Last edited:
So if I can lift the rotor up and down like 1/4", that's bad right? Do you have delco rebuilds I can trade mine for (plus money)?
 
mastiff said:
so if I can lift the rotor up and down like 1/4", that's bad right? Do you have delco rebuilds I can trade mine for (plus money)?
Click to expand...

Regarding a delco distributor (either I-4 or sv) if the rotor moves vertically at all when pulled up then that indicates issues with distributor vertical endplay. The delco distributor is assembled completely different compared to an IH/Holley which does exhibit some vertical movement due to the design of the mechanical advance unit.

Actual endplay can only be measured by removing the distributor and inserting a thickness gauge between the bottom end of the lower housing and the top of the drive gear.

I completed an I-4 delco build just two days ago complete with a pertronix conversion and new vacuum advance. That one had 3/16" endplay which is huge. That allows the ignition timing to "wander" approximately 4* between minimum and maximum thrust on the drive gear.

Currently I have no I-4 delco units ready to go, but I do have a few sv delcos that are fresh and "incompletes". That means no unipoint set is installed so that the customer May specify either points or a pertronix conversion.

I always prefer to rebuild the customers components as we know they are correct for the application (generally). Cost to rebuild a delco is $65 plus parts. Customer needs to specify if they want it finished in primer, IH red, satin black, or gloss black. Any other color add $10. The paint is an industrial implement enamel that resembles powder coat.
 
The one with pertronix is accounted for? I don't mind rebuilding mine, I just wanted to avoid the down time if I could.

I'll probably ask you to install the pertronix while your at it, since I understand the distributor needs to be partially disassembled for that anyway.
 
mastiff said:
the one with pertronix is accounted for? I don't mind rebuilding mine, I just wanted to avoid the down time if I could.

I'll probably ask you to install the pertronix while your at it, since I understand the distributor needs to be partially disassembled for that anyway.
Click to expand...

The I-4 distributor I did a few days ago was for a friend that lives in the area and has six Scout 80 rigs, we'll be building some additional distributors for him in the future so he can get at least three of 'em mobile. And several 1904 carbs also.

The installation of the magnet ring on a pertronix install in a delco is somewhat tedious. The distributor endplay must be corrected first, then the magnet ring is a selective-fit mounting. If it's not done right, then the magnet ring will crash into the p-tron module and wipe it. The mount kit includes some distributor shims and makes this sound easy. For the average diy'r it's an impossible setup since they have no way of removing the distributor gear without damage! One more case of bogus pertronix instructions in my opinion.
 
With an msd 6, the "r" port on the starter is a no-connect, right? I'm planning my complete rewire.
 
mastiff said:
with an msd 6, the "r" port on the starter is a no-connect, right? I'm planning my complete rewire.
Click to expand...

When installing a msd 6 series box, there is no connection to any starter/starter relay/solenoid terminal. It needs an ignition-switched b+ feed only. It uses no type of "bypass" in the "start" circuit at all as does the ihc-produced oem ignition system.

Some ignition switches don't incorporate a "bridging" feature internally which means b+ is applied on both the "start" and the "run" circuits. So you must verify that the switched b+ feed you select to tap is "hot" in both the start and the run key switch positions, otherwise it won't start as no current is applied in the start position. Use a test light to verify a proper b+ signal is available in both ignition switch positions.
 
My key switch has b+ input and (s)tart, (I)gnition, and (a)ccessory outputs. There's a backward detent for (a) only, then an (I) detent foreward and (s) momentary. In the (I) position, (a) and (I) are powered; in (s) mode, (s) and (I) are powered. I think this is convenient and how I want it. I'll connect the msd/pertronix to the (I) output.

My question was mostly from the starter perspective. I'm going to have the r port with absolutely nothing attached. I guess that's not surprising since newer starters don't even have the port, I think.
 
M/m, I was noticing the e-core coil in the pics in this post. Which I have been reading meticulously for days over and over.
I'm getting ready to install an msd 6a box and was trying to read the numbers on that coil. I'm thinking its a 8207. If so please let me know, I've looked at the 8207 and its great for the msd box. Just wanted to know what that one was. Thanks for the info . Brad
 
Good deal, they are available here in stock from our local speed shop for 36.00 + tax. Pickin one up tonite . Ready to do this shnizz.
 
Ok before I get to deep in this shizz, my 345 has the prestolite electronic diz. Works great. Ready to install the msd 6a got my 8207 coil fabbed up the bracket to mount it.
Now big question. Can I use the prestolite and if so, which wire goes where. Or am I gonna need to switch back to my point diz with the pertronics conversion or the original point diz.
I also want to keep the prestolite cap. I read somewhere it can be indexed by removing the square tab on the inner rim. Correct?
Thanks for the info brad
 
With the prestolite distributor, the fresh msd coil, and an msd 6 box, you will have everything needed for an ultimate ignition system.

Do not use the white wire coming out of the distributor. The red wire is positive, the brown wire is negative. So wire it exactly as shown in the msd instructions on the last page of the msd instruction set. The red wire will go to the smaller red wire on the msd box, the brown wire will go to the small white wire on the msd box.

If you are using a prestolite cap, on a prestolite distributor, then juts leave the cap alone!
 
Im lovin the word ultimate too!!! We'll know tomorrow how ultimate it is. I'll get her wired up in the afternoon and see what happens. Scored a really cool ol school open air breather set up for 10 bucks and a spacer from a GM TBI that has the pcv breather tube on it , im fuukin stoked. Will let yall know how shes runnin tomorrow. Thanks and have a good nite. I will, im on my 8th shiner bock. Damn they are good. Never tried one til m/m said somethin. Now I know what ive been missin!!! At least they got beer and they death penalty express right in texas!!! Lol
 
Sorry guys didnt get to work on it today maybe tomorrow, had a cataclismic day. Water heater at my 93 yr old grandma's house shot its wad. Blew out the whole side right on the seam, guess I would too after 32 yrs. That just goes to show how well they used to build shit. Had to go and do the r&r deal on that. Gotta love 60 yr old gavanized pipes.
It shouldnt be too bad everthing is already pre mounted from the racecar and the wiring has already been prepped.
 
Ok got her runnin!!! Fires right off cold and runs good. Idle quality seems to have greatly improved and it doesnt run as Rich at idle. Will do some more tuning on her this weekend. Will post numbers then.
I do have to say I checked the spark before adding the msd and coil and it was weak and yellow looking at the plugs. After installing the box and coil. Those plugs make a very healthy and might I say painful blue spark! Gonna play with some ngk plugs and different gaps just to see what happens. Im still open to any thoughts or suggestions too !
Next step will be the addition of a Holley projection setup I obtained through some wheelin and dealin maybe! Im still like m/m I love carbs!!!
 
towpainter3 said:
ok got her runnin!!! Fires right off cold and runs good. Idle quality seems to have greatly improved and it doesnt run as Rich at idle. Will do some more tuning on her this weekend. Will post numbers then.
I do have to say I checked the spark before adding the msd and coil and it was weak and yellow looking at the plugs. After installing the box and coil. Those plugs make a very healthy and might I say painful blue spark! Gonna play with some ngk plugs and different gaps just to see what happens. Im still open to any thoughts or suggestions too !
Next step will be the addition of a Holley projection setup I obtained through some wheelin and dealin maybe! Im still like m/m I love carbs!!!
Click to expand...

Good deal. I'm liking my setup also. Brave man to check that type of voltage even without a load. And if you want to stay with a carb I might know an interested party for the projection :wink5:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top