HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

J

Jeffsarasota

Member
Afternoon everybody I've got a 78 Scout with a 345 v8 an automatic transmission. Two barrel Holley carburetor number 2210. Fresh professional rebuild.
Engine only runs well with a crazy amount of timing. Like 30° initial or 24° without the vacuum hooked up.
Even at this setting there is a bad mid range drivability problems with bogging ad hesitation.
I've looked at all the obvious things like a vacuum leak. I had the carburetor professionally rebuilt. I've checked top dead center on the compression cycle of number eight and everything checks out fine.
If I take out timing the bog and hesitation gets worse. If I add more timing it gets better.
It's a holly distributor with a prestolite cap. New wires new plugs new new rotor converted to per tronics electronics ignition
none of these things have helped it's still wants a lot of timing and I cannot get rid of the hesitation and bog.
I've done a compression test on the motor and everything seems fine. I've tried changing the distributor a tooth and it ran much worse so I'm thinking everything is stabbed correctly
so does anyone know how much mechanical advance I should get out of the distributor? Also how much is the vacuum can worth?
Runs absolutely perfect with no load on the engine. The mid range bog and hesitation only happens under load I.e. While driving the truck.

I'm wondering if a spring and bushing change on the dizzy would help? I have a musclecar background so I'm familiar with screwing with advance curves and changing stuff like that. I just need to know what the factory baseline and then maybe I can adjust from there. Thanks for all your help
maybe I set it up so it gets a shit load of timing real early in the rpm range. Right now with all this timing it's getting it's still not detonating or diesel when shut off. And it runs cold.
 
You say fresh professional rebuild...of what? The engine? The carb? Both? Gotta be more specific.

That much initial static timing is never going to have a happy ending with one these engines. You're damn near all in at idle, when at most you should have maybe 10 or 12 degrees of advance. Something's really screwy. Either the distributor is mis-stabbed or the camshaft wasn't properly degreed when it was installed.
 
That helps narrow it down. Do you have a tach to tell what your engine idle speed is? Do you have a vacuum gauge you can connect to measure manifold vacuum?
 
Thanks for the help. Here's what I have. All these values are static and vacuum advance. The vacuum can gives me about 8 to 10°. All we're done in neutral with engine warmed up properly . I don't have a tachometer but these are pretty good estimate of rpm when going into gear the rpm drops about 150 to 200 and timing drops off a couple degrees due to the variation in rpm

20 deg ,600rpm , steady 17" on vac : runs like shit under load

28 deg,700rpm,steady 19" on vac: runs a lot better with some bogging and hesitation about 30%-50% into throttle under load

32deg,800rpm,steady 20" vac: runs really well with only minor bogging and hesitation at about 30 to 50% throttle under load

at the 32° Mark I went ahead and rev the engine up with timing light. It seems to be mechanical advance gives it another 10 to 12°. So total for advance with vacuum is around 44 when revved to max advance.
Motor idles great and pulles great vacuum. Unfortunately with all the timing it's a little hard to start and it'll crank over several times before grabbing . It never gets hot and I never hear any detonation or pinging. It never diesels or runs on when the key is turned off !
I'm at my wits end with this thing and any help is much appreciated.....
 
Pretty good vacuum. The timing index on the engine only goes to 25. How are you seeing numbers larger than that? There aren't any switches or settings on your timing light that could possibly be influencing what you're seeing, like a cylinder number selection or dialback feature? What kind of timing light are you using?
 
I have a dial back time light . So I always use the 0° timing Mark on the balancer and then use my timing light to read how much advance I'm getting. When the dial back timing light was set at 32° and I revved up the motor I got an additional 10° or 12 on the balancer. That's what I came up with the 44° number
 
Can you switch off the dialback and just go into old school mode or is that not possible with your light? I've never used one, so I have no idea. I just have an el cheapo standard light and every one of these IH motors I've shined it on from 152 4-poppers up to 392 sv8 has shown me predictable readings on the engine mounted index, well below 25 degs at idle. When revved up, mechanical advance will take it of the scale, somewhere into the low 30's. That's pretty much all in for advance on these engines. I think your fancy doodad might be playing some tricks on you. Go old school on it if you can, just for shits an howdees and prove me wrong if you can.
 
Thanks for the help. Regular basic timing light with no advance. In gear. No vac hooked up. 16° initial and it's pulling 17 inches of vac on guage. Very smooth. Anything lower than this initial and it runs like shit under load. Severe hesitation and blogging about 30% into the throttle. After that goes away (bogging and hesitation) it revs up fine if I add more timing it won't start. If I take away it runs worse and worse depending on how much initial I pull out
 
Ok. That's more like it. I think we might be getting somewhere, although it May not seem that way to you. 16 initial is about where I was guessing it would be (15 - 20). Its not unheard of for folks to have as much as 15 degrees of initial advance work well on these engines, although 10-12 seems to be more common. Is the choke functional on this carb? What effect does it have if you apply it while the engine is idling hot? I know you had it professionally rebuilt, but you'd be far from the first person I've heard of to find that their supposedly professional job as in fact botched in one or more critical ways. I'm not saying lets jump to that conclusion just yet, but given your symptoms, we simply cannot rule out the possibility that you're having some kind of fuel delivery issue that is being masked somewhat by advancing the the timing.
Has this engine and carb combination, or any other carb that you've ever had on it ran well enough to be driveable at any point in your ownership history?
 
I really appreciate all your time and help. I bought the car about five months ago with this carburetor. It was not drivable at the time because it did not have breaks but I heard it run and thought it was fine. Runs like a top when not under load at pretty much any timing setting. Far as the choke goes I don't think it's on. There's a rod coming from the intake manifold that goes up to the flapper on top of the carburetor. Everything is adjusted and seems to work fine. Once the car is warmed up that flapper is most of the way open in the vehicle idles down as it should.
 
You bet. Thanks for the backstory. You never can tell what seemingly insignificant tidbit could turn out to be the key that solves the riddle. What I'm wanting you to try is a manual application of the choke while the engine is idling and also while you give it some throttle. Might need to wedge something or wire it to keep it partially closed. What should happen is some rough and stumble possibly accompanied by some black smoke and Rich exhaust smell that will clear up with the choke back off. If you instead find that it has little to no effect or even seems to make the engine run better under a load, that will be instructive. I don't care much for that 2210 model, but I'll try to keep my personal bias at bay a little longer.
Another question. Are you running some electric fuel pump, or the stock mechanical?
 
Manual pump. I assume it's working ok because I have visually watch the fuel filter when driving and it always stays full and never goes dry. My original thought was a fuel pump issue or at least filter never seems to be out of fuel ( hood off of truck right now ).
Do I manually engage the choke by just pulling that rod down in a lower position or perhaps trying to fix the plastic cam on the driver side so that it keeps the choke on?
 
You can either pull on the rod or press on the butterfly plate. I wouldn't do anything that would tweak or upset the normal actuation. I think the plastic cam is for your fast idle step down.
 
Great. I will check it out tomorrow after work. Don't know why I just thought of this but it May be important. When I set the timing to a "normal" level let's say at zero or 5° initial advance. When trying to drive the car it will backfire through the carburetor. It has basically no throttle response it bogs and hesitates and backfires. It never backfires when I crank the timing up 10 or more.
 
Umm hmm. Well, popping back thru the carb can be a sign of fuel starvation. So, I'm thinking that with your choke applied and the timing backed off a bit, the thing just might almost be driveable. We shall see. If having the choke applied improves things at all, then I'm going to be calling major bs on your "pro" carb rebuild. Since we're kind of in hiatus for the evening, I can't hold my anti-2210 bias back any longer. I think they make great paperweights. They're not that tuneable. They can be downright finicky to tune. They were developed as an emissions carb during the very dark emissions days of the early to mid 70's. They worked alright for what they were back then, but they don't make a pimple on a performance carb's ass today. They're worth having and rebuilding if you live in an area where vehicles of a certain vintage are subject to periodic smog inspections included visual underhood peek-sees. Or if you're doing a by the numbers, bolt by bolt concours level restoration where every last washer and screw has to be an original part, then you need the original carb. Outside of those two scenarios, they aren't worth messing with, unless you're just a glutton for punishment who just can't back down from a challenge and you really want to prove to the world that you have the chutspa to tame the shrew that is the Holley 2210. Me, I'd rather spend my time in other pursuits, but to each his own. I hope you didn't pay too much to have your carb refreshed, because I have a decent hunch that something wasn't done right.
 
Scout boy you are an absolute genius !!!! I wired the choke flap closed so it was only about 15% open and the bog and hesitation has disappeared. Then I pulled out 5° of timing. Still drives great.
I cannot thank you enough for all your help!
Now to answer your other question. I do need to use this carburetor in the short term while I am doing the restoration. After that my plan is to go to a four barrel intake and a fuel injection set up. So now I need some more advice.
1. Do I drive this thing around like it is with the choke wired closed? ( I'm assuming this would not be the right answer )
2.can I pull the top off carb and just put in fatter jets myself?
3.should I mail it back to the carburetor shop and tell them they need to make it richer because there's a flat spot in the middle of the range?( they will not charge me for this I have already spoken with them on the phone )
 
Better to be lucky than good, I always say. Sorry for the delay. I just started a new job today, so my temporary life of leisure has ended. That's a good thing though.
It won't hurt anything except for maybe your mileage to drive it with the choke partially closed for awhile. If the morning start up is cold where you live, your going to want that choke to snap shut all the way on your initial warm up before you "haywire hank" it into place. Kind of a hassle, I know.
I don't think this is a jet size issue. It probably has the same jets in it that it rolled off the line with. They got the job done back then. The craptacular corn squeezins alky gazz that we're forced to burn these days does tend to burn a bit lean. The jets might be a size too small for optimum a/f ratio, but shouldn't be so far off to be causing the severity of issue that you've had. I'm leaning more towards an incorrect or damaged gasket somewhere that's either capping a hole that needs to be open, or the reverse. Or it could be that some internal orifice is plugged up. It doesn't take much of a blockage to cause problems with these mixers.
If the carb shop is willing to take another stab at getting it right at no additional cost to you, I say absolutely have them go over it again when its convenient for you. I don't know if they have any way to hook it up to a test mule and put it through its paces before they bless it as healed, but that would be extra handy if they could.
What's the mean elevation where you play? If you're up pretty high, (6 to 10k) it would be super easy to over jet to the point of belching black smoke, fouling plugs and making your eyes burn from the Rich exhaust smell. You don't want to go to that extreme. So if any jet change is made it should be very subtle. No more than one or two sizes above whats in it now. And make sure you get the removed jets back to have as keepsakes.
Gradual changes followed by testing is better that drastic measures. I still feel like they need to scratch and sniff a little deeper than jets. Something else is wrong.
As for your future plans, don't quote me because I'm not all that lerned up in efi, but you might not need a 4bbl intake as a base for a suitable setup. Your present 2bbl might be fine. That would be a question for bill hamilton in the injection tech section. Navy bill can get you on the right path when the time comes.
I'm glad we were able to make some headway with this headache to the point that you can drive the sumbitch without advancing the timing elevendybillion degrees. I knew that wasn't going to be the right recipe.
 
Thanks again and congrats on the job. I am at sea level in florida so the only altitude we get is by looking up.ill send the carb back to them for some rework. I was reading another thread today and it said these motors need a big pump shot when using these smog carbs. Ill sent a note with the carb with these recommendations. Fingers crossed
 
Thanks. Good for you for spending some time trying to lern yerself up guder. Big 10-4 on the pump shot. These rigs are heavy and it takes a strong shot of juice to get them going from a dead stop. This is something you can check yourself next time you get the notion. With the engine off and the choke open, position yourself over the carb with a flashlight and blip the throttle. You want to see two strong squirts, one in either hole and there shouldn't be any lag between the linkage movement and the squirts. Anemic dribbles don't get it done.
 
Just want to say thank you scoutboy for your help. You are an invaluable resource. Just got the carburetor back from the rebuilder they fatten it up and everything is working great. Drop the initial timing down to 10° without vacuum. Everything works great,starts easy,runs cool,no bog or flat spots!!
 
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