Front end whacked

J

jmalloy

Member
1980 traveler turbo diesel/t-19/d-300, mostly on road use.

I'm getting ready to replace springs/shocks and have some questions.

The springs are shot. I have about 1" of clearance between the front axle and the bump-stops. Since stock springs are hard to come by I'm planning on using the Rough Country 2 1/2" lift kit ( Rough Country lift kit for 71'-80' Scout II, terra or traveler - International Scout parts ). As the attached pictures show, the front end was whacked at some point (how do you bend both hangers inward? I'm guessing the po drove into something low and solid and caught the swaybar.) so I also plan to replace the front hangers ( angled 2" leaf spring hanger - pair - International Scout parts), shackles (stock replacement shackle plate's for 71'-80' Scout II - International Scout parts And the sway bar.

I'm not interested in moving to a reverse shackle setup. I recognize doing so would provide a smoother ride, and that now would be the ideal time since I'm replacing the front hangers but it's not in my budget and won't be for quite some time. (reverse shackle kit + long travel front drive shaft cost almost as much as the springs...)

questions:

1. What's the proper distance between the front hangers? (I'm not willing to trust that the po didn't already replace one or both incorrectly...)

2. Where can I get a new (flat) front swaybar? I realize it's just a flat hunk of steel. I have a local ironworks that can provide that. Is the swaybar just mild steel? What's the right way to specify what I need?

3. There seem to be a whole bunch of choices for shackle replacement. Should I be looking at something other than the stock setup? (I'm not looking for monster tires or more lift, and it's not entirely clear to me what benefit a dogleg provides...)

4. What am I missing? Do I have appropriate parts selected? Are their any "gotchas" I should be aware of?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

--jim
 

Attachments

  • Front spring hanger - driver side.jpg
    Front spring hanger - driver side.jpg
    82.2 KB · Views: 1,850
  • Front spring hanger - Passenger side.jpg
    Front spring hanger - Passenger side.jpg
    28.2 KB · Views: 938
  • Swaybar.jpg
    Swaybar.jpg
    59.7 KB · Views: 1,297
Jim - the front swaybar is made out of spring steel. New ones are not available and simply putting mild steel in its place is my opinion not a suitable replacement. We should have one or two more good use bars that we could sell you but you will have to call to order or check availability and price.

As for shackles I recommend our 5" shackle kit - Scout II 5" shackle kit - International Scout parts - longer shackles will help smooth out the ride and add another 1" of lift. You will need some castor shims though and that will help control wander and get the castor angle back to specification. I recommend 4* castor shims.

The leaf spring hanger you have picked out is incorrect for what you need to replace which is the shackle hanger - not the spring hanger. Again we have those available but they are not online so please call for more information on that.
 
... and this is why I ask lots of questions:)

I'll call next week to discuss parts/pricing for the stuff I need .

I'm not particularly interested in more lift - stock height would be just fine with me . I am, however curious about "smoothing out the ride" . my general impression was that lifting the suspension generally made the ride/steering tougher, not smoother . I can tolerate the height if it actually makes the ride smoother .

with 2 1/2" springs and another inch in the shackles, am I going to need to modify brake lines, pitman arm drop, or anything else I might not be thinking about yet ?

if I put 5" shackles on the front, I assume I should also change the back to match . are these the right ones ? CPT shackle plate's - International Scout parts[/url ]

as discussed in a previous post ([url ] http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/basic-tech-questions/6277-my-drive-shaft-got-longer.html ), my rear driveshaft is pretty close to bottoming out with the current setup . will Skyjacker springs and 5" shackles move the axle closer to the transfer case or further away?
 
What you have pictured as a sway bar is not a sway bar - at least to me.

Looks like a flat piece of steel that goes between the spring hangers.

An anti-sway bar is round and "u" shaped (and made of spring steel like Jeff stated) -- the bottom of the "u" is attached to the front frame cross member (isolated by rubber bushings)> the "arms" are attached to the axle by "uprights" (with bushings) which "articulate".

Do not "see" a anti-sway bar in the picture -- maybe the po whacked it also and removed it???

You May need all the attachement pieces for the sway bar, also.
 
Robert, I think you May be confusing fs stuff with sii. On scouts, that flat bar is the oe front sway bar. I've never seen the item you're describing on any unmodified sii.
 
I'd never seen a sway bar like this before either.

Also, I just realized the 5" shackle kit Jeff mentioned does both the front and rear springs. No additional stuff required for the rear springs. (which also explains why it was so darned expensive...)
 
All Scout II's were equipped from the factory with what is shown. It was a cheap resolution for road steering and handling. The factory shackles were equipped with the welded and drilled tabs for just this purpose. They came with the sway bar on the front end only.
 
Scout papa; I have an early 74 Scout II and it does not have the sway bar or the flanges on the shackles to mount too. How much difference does it make between having one or not? I remember reading in this forum somewhere that road manners were better with but off road was better without. Just my 2c.
 
I didn't mean to imply I doubted it was stock - only that I'd never seen anything quite like it. I also understand that off-roaders often remove the sway bar to improve articulation. I plan on very little and very mild off-road use so I want to keep mine. (well, one like mine, but straight...).

Back to the original question - am I likely to end up with a decent ride for a street vehicle with the 2 1/2" lift, 5" shackles, new shackle hangers, and a new (old) sway bar? Is there anything else I'm likely to need or anything I've listed (after Jeff's corrections) that seems like a bad idea?
 
I had a 73 Scout II that did not have the sway "bar" between the shackles, it rolled like the titanic in turns and you had to constantly adjust the steering wheel to keep it straight down the road. The 78 I have with the sway bar handles much nicer in turns, however its still not great, like was said earlier it was just a quick fast cheap solution they slapped in there. It helps a bit but probably not like an actual sway bar attached at the Ubolt area would. A Scout is not a road racer so is it needed? Depends on what you want to do I I guess, hard fast turns is just not really an option in a Scout II unless you like looking down at the greasy side.:icon_wink:
 
If I wanted something with zippy acceleration and tight cornering, I wouldn't have picked a Scout (and certainly not a diesel Scout :)

I'll keep the sway bar.

Question on shims. Jeff recommends 4 degree shims in front to improve caster angle.

1. Do the shims go in fat end forward or fat end back?

2. In another thread ( http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...e-line-vibrations-after-4-lift.html#post44874) mochamike pointed out that with a two joint drive shaft the differential and the transfer case yoke should be parallel to each other. Doesn't adding shims change this geometry? If so, am I going to introduce vibration by adding them?
 
It helps but if you want a true anti/roll/sway system, Jeff has a kit that can be disconnected when wheeling. Very similar looking to the Ford 3/4 ton sway bars. My opinion, that is the way to go. On the Scout I drove in high school I actually had extended shackles but welded in the tabs for the sway bar. I installed the bar in the front and the back to try to keep the roll in the truck less pronounced when cornering (felt like I was in pirogue and drunk to boot when I made a turn).
 
Cool!

I'll ask Jeff about the anti roll/sway system. Does anyone have any pictures, installation stories, or information about how much difference the system makes?

Current shopping list is:

1. 2 1/2 " Rough Country lift kit
2. 5" shackle kit (front and rear)
3. 4 degree shims (plus 2 degrees for having a 1980 Scout)
4. Stock sway bar or anti roll/sway system
5. Front shackle hangers

as always, any comments or suggestions are much appreciated.

--jim
 
Most of the parts I ordered should arrive Thursday. It just occurred to me that I May be short a few bushings. The new springs will come with bushings. The 5" shackle kit doesn't appear to come with bushings. Assuming the ones I have are 30 years old, I'm going to need to replace the bushings at the top end of the shackles.

Am I missing something or do I need 4 bushings for the shackles? Does ihonlynorth sell these? Can I source them locally? How would I specify what I need?
 
2-1/2 months later...


All parts installed!

Any number of logistics issues made this take a long time, but nothing was terribly difficult. It took three tries for ups to actually deliver four springs to my door. They lost one, lost the replacement, and finally get it right on the third try. By the time I had springs, the guy doing my welding for me wasn't available...

Anyhow, I now have: 5" front shackles / shackle mounts, new (straight!) sway bar, 5" rear shackles, 2-1/2" r/c lift, 4 degree shims in front, new brake lines front and rear, and new master cylinder (since I was already messing with the brakes...) I was expecting about 3-1/2" total lift. 2-1/2 from the springs and 1 from the shackles. I got way more than that. I'll measure later this week and let you know how much. There were 1/2" spacer blocks above the springs on the passenger side, front and rear. After discussions with Jeff and others about whether they needed to be there or not, I left them out. Lo and behold, the passenger side sits about 3/4 higher than the driver's side. I'll put them back in:(

I haven't driven it very far, but the handling is much improved. I'm working on new body bushings, tires, and alignment (in that order). Once all is done we'll see how it rides.

--jim
 
I put the 1/2" block back into the passenger side rear spring assembly, and learned much in the process.

I don't really have much more lift than I expected. Measuring from the top of the axle to the bump stop bracket, I have the following:


.......... df .. dr .. pf .. pr
before .... 3.00 2.75 3.00 3.75
after ..... 6.75 8.00 7.25 8.25
difference 3.75 5.25 4.25 3.50
[/font ]
I was expecting 3.5, I got 0.25 to 0.75 more in front and 0.75 to 1.5 in back . more interestingly, my Scout is no longer level !

I've poked and prodded and haven't come up with a good explanation as to why it's not level . I did, however, discover that the junk tires the po gave me are all marked as 225/75r15 (from three different manufacturers!), but they vary in overall height from 26.5 to 27.75 inches (tire size calculator says 28.28" for 225/75 r15 ... perhaps they're under-inflated, but if so they are consistently under-inflated.) . it's not clear to me why the Scout sat level before ...

I'll worry about leveling the Scout after I get new tires on it (hopefully this weekend) . there was one more surprise waiting for me as I cleaned everything up . in order to put the 1/2" block back in, I had to remove the rear passenger side u-bolts . when I put them on I torqued them to the specs Rough Country supplied (110 ft . pounds, I think...) . when I went to take them off, the washers they provided were so distorted that it took a bfh to get them off . I got replacement u-bolts from a local spring shop (chantilly spring works in sterling va - $7.50 each) . they make them to order, very quickly . the new bolts and washers are significantly beefier than the old ones were . I have no doubt that these won't bend . I'm irritated enough that I'm going to replace the fronts too before I get the alignment checked . I'll post pics later today .

I haven't driven enough to tell you what I think of the springs yet, but I'm not impressed with the u-bolts.
 
Washers aren't supposed to do that...
 

Attachments

  • Rough Country hardware vs spring shop hardware.jpg
    Rough Country hardware vs spring shop hardware.jpg
    37 KB · Views: 486
So what ended up being the solution to the Scout not being level?
I am getting ready to do the same modifications.

Would be nice if IH Parts America created some "how to's" on this forum. Any mod I do I try to document with pictures on my build thread, but would be nice to see some of these common upgrades documented, including the unplanned issues that can arise, like the Scout not sitting level.

Does anyone have pictures of there Scout sitting on 2.5" springs?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top