extreme oil filtration

overdrivesteve

overdrivesteve

Member
Hi,

I'm in the process of trying to figure out the best possible oil filtration system for the sv v8 engine, using the newest synthetic nano-technologies available.

No technical specs were found on the canister filters. And the large spin-on oil filter, usually stock on a loadstar type of truck, such as wix p/n 51797 flows great at 12 to 16 gpm but only has a nominal micron rating of 32. However the smaller wix filter, p/n 51452 used on our engines has a nominal micron rating of 21, so it clearly filters better, at least theoretically. (for reference, 25 microns is about .001 in.)

however new oil filters push that limit even smaller. Amsoil sells oil bypass filters that are rated 98.7% effective at 2 microns or 39% efficient at less than one micron. And I would like to quote from their web site:
" engine wear is caused by dirt particles of about 5 microns. By-pass filtration removes particles less than one micron or larger, virtually eliminating engine wear. Filters all of the oil in a 6 quart system in about 5 minutes. "

to me, that sounds impressive. Even if their statement is a bit over-optimistic, it still sounds like better filtration than just our wix 51452.

So I have two questions. First, would such a fine mesh oil filter also filter out any of the additives in the swepco oil or are they all chemically bonded in the oil at a much smaller molecular level?

Second, would someone please help me with the nuts and bolts of setting up such a by-pass oil filtration system in my truck? I will be happy to provide lots of pictures of the modification. I'll be the test rat if I can have someone commit to helping me who either has experience setting up oil by-pass filtration systems or is experienced with old IH v8 engines. I'm handy with a wrench however I have no experience with either as I'm very new to IH trucks.

You can see some pics of my engine in this discussion: http://forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/basic-tech-questions/9147-so-many-questions-so-overwhelming.html

Thank you for your opinions, suggestions and comments on this subject.

Steve

p.s. Amsoil recommended something from the bottom of either of these pages:
amsoil bmk30 heavy-duty by-pass filtration system
Or
amsoil dual-gard oil bypass system

However I'm open to using the set-up by donaldson, racor or any other filter manufacturer you have experience with.
 
A bypass filtration on an old engine might not be a good idea as you really don't know the condition of the oil pump and lube system. A typical lube oil pump , from what I've read, used to be sized 150% of what the system would need at operating temp. The thought was that would account for increased flow needs over time due to bearing wear in the engine. The pump itself wears, so no tell'in where it's at in it's health. How much can be bypassed without running into low pressures or flows to the most remote bearing surface is just a wag at this point.

Today's oil with better detergents will also clean an engine somewhat. How gunked is the engine now? You might change oil at intervals that keep contaminates to levels that extra filtration isn't needed; or without periodic tests the filter could plug before you know it.

Also consider the dirt brought in through the induction, I.e. Carburretion. Filtration ought to be a system so one end isn't crapping on the other.

If it was my engine, I'd also look at the cooling system and see it the coolant was fresh and up to snuff.
 
This is an interesting subject, and as fate would have it, I already have an article on oil filters planned for January (2013). The article was written by jeremy wright of noria corp, a well-known and factual reference on anything related to lubrication. Unfortunately it does not address micron size, however in that respect, know that most oil blenders/manufacturers filtration in their plants are usually around 25 – 30 microns, or so I am told if my memory is right. Swepco engine oil is run through a 10 micron filtration system to eliminate any oversize particles to go into the finished product. There have been a slug of companies which offer filters with a ultra-low filtration, some even as low as 1 micron in size. Sometimes consumers think that the lower the micron size, the better it is due to the advertising on the products make it out to be. The jury is still out on that one, but taking a conservative stance, I have heard and agree that 5 microns would be sufficient, and for reasons of possible additive depletion on the ultra-low filters, or engine condition as greg mentioned. Five microns, when you think of it is really, really low.

I hope you find the article interesting, it will be repeated in the January newsletter for those of you who subscribe to it.

The real story on automotive filters

early automotive engines didn’t use any kind of filtration for the oil. It wasn’t until a patent was granted to ernest sweetland and george greenhalgh in 1923 for their product the “pure oil later” or “purolator,” that you could buy an automobile with a full pressure lubrication system.
It would be many years later before a full flow oil filter found on today’s automobiles was incorporated.
The 1940s would bring about filtration systems on mass produced vehicles, and the 1960s made oil filter changes much more convenient with the advent of “spin on” disposable filters. Through the next few decades, advances were made in the internal construction and filter media, making the filters much more efficient. Today, all automotive engines, whether gasoline or diesel, come with filtration designed to improve oil cleanliness and thus extend the life of that engine.
What makes today’s filters better than those of the past is the filter media itself. Early designs incorporated steel wool, wire meshes, metal screens and more to keep the particles from entering the system. The next iteration of the media was in the form of bulk cotton or various woven fabrics, like linen. When disposable filters became popular in the 1960s, cellulose and paper were used to minimize production costs. Although cellulose and paper filters still can be purchased today, a better technology exists: synthetic
media.

Today’s filters are made of cellulose or synthetic media encompassed in a steel can. The top of the filter has a threaded center hole with smaller holes surrounding it. Oil will enter through the surrounding holes, pass through the media and exit the threaded center. The can typically screws directly to the engine block and uses an o-ring gasket to prevent leakage. Some filters will also have a drain back valve at the smaller surrounding holes to prevent dirt and debris that is trapped on the face of the media from washing back into the system during depressurization. There is also a pressure relief or bypass valve that allows the oil to bypass the media in the event that it becomes plugged or the pressure differential becomes too high.
A good filter has a strong steel can to withstand the high oil pressure (60-80psi when cold), an anti-drain back valve that works without creating too much back pressure, a pressure relief valve that doesn’t leak below its opening pressure, and a strong element and cap that can withstand the pressure and flow of oil without falling apart.
The element media has to be able to trap small particles, but not restrict the flow too much. Cellulose is used on economy filters. The fibers in the paper act as a mesh to block particles while still allowing the oil to pass through. Some manufacturers add other media, such as cotton,
to the cellulose to improve its performance. Also, there is synthetic fiber me


dia for the high-end filters that has smaller passages to trap smaller particles, but can also pass more fluid through because it has more passages, thus increasing the inherent surface area.
There is also media that is a blend of the two. Not only does the type of media play a role in the filters ability to remove debris, but also the construction. Depth filters are usually made of a synthetic material that has a passage size gradient to it. In other words, the deeper into the element the oil goes, the smaller the passages get. This way, large particles are trapped on the surface and small particles get trapped deeper within, allowing the filter to hold more particles before it becomes too restrictive.
So how do you know which ones to buy? A large portion of all passenger car oil filters are sold to do-it-yourself oil changers. Last year, that accounted for 189 million oil filter changes. Cost plays a major role in deciding what oil filter to purchase. The cost of a synthetic depth filter is almost double of that of the cellulose filter. It May only cost a few extra dollars in the beginning, but there have been multiple case studies on the effect of the cleanliness of the oil affecting component life to the tune of three to four times the life extension of the engine.
Ask yourself the next time you are standing in front of a store shelf full of engine oil filters … “is it worth a few extra dollars to me now to save an expensive rebuild down the road?”
 
greg r said:
a bypass filtration on an old engine might not be a good idea as you really don't know the condition of the oil pump and lube system. A typical lube oil pump , from what I've read, used to be sized 150% of what the system would need at operating temp. The thought was that would account for increased flow needs over time due to bearing wear in the engine. The pump itself wears, so no tell'in where it's at in it's health. How much can be bypassed without running into low pressures or flows to the most remote bearing surface is just a wag at this point.

Today's oil with better detergents will also clean an engine somewhat. How gunked is the engine now? You might change oil at intervals that keep contaminates to levels that extra filtration isn't needed; or without periodic tests the filter could plug before you know it.

Also consider the dirt brought in through the induction, I.e. Carburretion. Filtration ought to be a system so one end isn't crapping on the other.

If it was my engine, I'd also look at the cooling system and see it the coolant was fresh and up to snuff.
Click to expand...

Yes, those are the same concerns I had in my mind too. From what I've read, it seems the oil pump is only marginally over-rated for the job it must do, therefore resulting in low oil pressure (or at least lower than I am accustomed to seeing in an engine).

So my thoughts were to use a small electric oil pump to feed the bypass filter. (I think I just like to design and over-build things for fun). In addition to the bypass filtration, a simple 10 psi ball check valve to the engine's oil lines could provide oil pressure to the engine to prevent dry starts, and anytime the engine's oil pressure drops below 10 psi then the electric oil pump would help keep the engine at that 10 psi oil pressure.
And one more benefit, it would make changing the oil very easy with the use of the electric oil pump and another valve.
There is less than 1.5 inches of clearance between the oil drain plug and the axle's tie rod immediately below it. See pics. That's probably why the po seldom changed the oil after spending over $5k to have a shop rebuild and replace the engine.

Eventually I will be installing a set of mechanical gauges under the dash to monitor everything. For oil I'm thinking a 0 to 50 psi scale from this company:
http://www.umainstruments.com/
But I'm still looking for suggestions where to connect it to, preferably on the engine's top end.

Somewhere in one of the posts I read where its suggested that the oil filter be changed every time there is a general 5 psi drop in overall oil pressure. To me that sounded like a good way to monitor if the filter is starting to load up.

I agree with the concept of filtering everything the best possible. But I don't yet know what to do about extreme filtration of the incoming air. Seems I'm limited to whatever filter will fit whatever housing is installed. Any suggestions there?

The coolant looks good at this time. However, I do plan to install a filter there too. Most likely it will be attached in line with the heater core. Although it will only be filtering when coolant is flowing through the heater, but occasional filtering is better than no filtering. Wix makes some very fine spin-on filters for this too, at 5 microns or less.

Although perhaps overkill, does this sound like it will work with an electric oil pump? And if I understand correctly, I should use the 5 micron oil filter and not the 1 or 2 micron oil filter to keep from filtering out the oil additives, correct?

Thanks.

Steve
 

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Once upon a time I used to sell motor guard oil filters. The old fashioned ones that used a "roll of toilet paper" as the filter. These things are remarkable. The application I sold them for was to filter the oil in vacuum pumps. In one instance I sold a filter to libby owens Ford for use in a architectural glass coat machine. It seems powder from the glass was getting into the pumps and tearing them up.

Lof put the filter on their dirtiest pump and ran it for a month and the sent an oil sample from the pump and one of fresh oil from the barrel. The test came back that the oil in the pump was cleaner than the new oil! Them came back to me and purchased 12 more filters at $1k each in 1980 $'s.

One of the neat things about these filters is that the elements, yes cellulose, absorbs water this prevents acid from forming in the oil. The oil is filtered from end to end on the roll between the sheets. The filtration is sub-moronic. Don't know if these are still available for automotive use, but they are real common as air driers/filters on compressors.
 
for oil I'm thinking a 0 to 50 psi scale
Click to expand...

An 80 pound gauge would be better. A mechanical gauge is most accurate between 1/3 to 2/3 scale. Even though 10 psi might not register to accurately, a good gauge (more$$) will show 10 psi okay. The oil pump relief on sv's I've seen generally lift at around 54 psi to hold at 45 to 48 psi; usually seen with cold oil or above 3,800 rpm.
 
Chappie,
in 1973 I bought one of those tp kits (the name brand one). I still have it although I haven't used it in decades. It needs new hoses. They are remarkable devices and while I wouldn't give up my quality spin-on oil filters, I can see their utility as an adjunct filter, especially in that they do remove water. Funny little story along the lines of yours. I put one on a new datsun pickup I had, and only changed the oil three times before I sold it with 70,000 on the clock. Never had to adjust the tappets. As I was working at an airbase at the time, I had a "connection" and pulled an oil sample to be run in their sop lab. Oil came back super-clean is all they told me and stressed "we can't believe this". But while the oil May have been super clean, additives vital to protect modern engines do wear out and won't be adequately replenished by using the recommended "a roll of 2-ply every 2,000 miles and top up the missing half-quart or so". So today, at least, it is a false economy. Plus, 2-ply toilet paper is hard to find, and many brands are made to dissolve easily because of water treatment plants.
 
Unless your starting with a new engine, adding a filter that tight could cause loss of pressure and your bottom end could get wiped out on the freeway. Well then you will then be starting with a clean motor. :icon_up: I would stick with a regular good quality filter and oil
if you need to clean out the engine, you could change the oil more often. A friend of mine changed his oil every 500 miles. Easy to do when you work at a truck stop. I was surprised at how much cleaner it looked just looking down the oil filler cap.
I don't remember how many changes he went through, but just changing it every 500 miles did wonders.

I had tranny issues years ago, pulled the pan and the oil was dark, and clutch materiel was all over the pan and tranny insides. I did the same thing, drain and fill the tranny every 500 miles. After about 4 changes, I pulled the pan to replace the filter and the insides were spotless. But tranny oil is a lot different then motor oil.

I bought a full sweep electric oil pressure gauge. Auto meter.
Expensive, but I know for sure what my engine is doing. If you run one of these type for a while before running a 1-5 micron filter you will know if the filter is getting plugged up.

images
 
With the sky high price of fluids these days, that seems wasteful, most especially in the auto trans example. I've yet to read in any auto trans service literature where ultra frequent fluid changes are a necessary or recommended maintenance procedure. It doesn't address the underlying reason for the sloughed off friction material. But since this discussion is about an engine, I could see reducing the duration between the first two lof's, followed by a return to normal intervals from then on.
 
scoutboy74 said:
I've yet to read in any auto trans service literature where ultra frequent fluid changes are a necessary or recommended maintenance procedure.
Click to expand...

That's because the oem's have a vested interest in making sure you car or truck only needs to last for a 100,000 miles.

Try this, go new car shopping and they will tell you that the transmission can go 100,000 miles without an oil change.
Now walk out of the showroom over to the maint dept and ask how often should I change the transmission oil. Different story.

My new car (well 2004) I changed the engine oil like clock work every 5,000 miles. At 30,000 recommend transmission oil change, the oil was full of clutch material. Replaced the filter and then just changed the transmission oil each time I changed the engine oil.
Couple changes and its nice and clean. Is it a waste of money on oil? (takes 3 qt's @ a cost of $15) I put 3x that in a week for gas.

On my suburban, at around 30,000 miles the tranny had a slight hiccup, took it to the dealer and they did a trany flush. No chem's, just replaced all the fluid using a machine. It has run fine ever since. Since it was under warranty they gave me a great deal on the oil change.

But we digress on the oil changes. For my Scout I'm using the motorcraft filters. I'm sure there are better ones I could use, but I bought a few of them and there not gone yet. My oil comes out looking like the ace of spades.:frown5:

oh wait that 306 oil goes in dark purple to start with. :yesnod:
 
Yeah, I meant actual service literature with greezy fingerprints and dog-eared pages, not glossy smoke blow and purdy color artwork. Its just like those stickers on the light line vehicle radiator supports which state that the vehicle is equipped with lifetime coolant. Yeah right. Who's lifetime? Routine maintenance is still required. Getting sort of back on topic, I've always done the lof's on my modern daily drivers at 3k miles, even though the label on the oil, the owners manual and the on-board pooterized oil life monitor says that I could go awhile longer. Maybe so, but I've always had good success with that interval, so I'll stick with it.
 
greg r said:
an 80 pound gauge would be better. A mechanical gauge is most accurate between 1/3 to 2/3 scale. Even though 10 psi might not register to accurately, a good gauge (more$$) will show 10 psi okay. The oil pump relief on sv's I've seen generally lift at around 54 psi to hold at 45 to 48 psi; usually seen with cold oil or above 3,800 rpm.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I was considering the 0 to 50 psi gauge because everything I read previously said these engines never get above 45 psi. So the 0 to 100 psi gauge it is.

On an unrelated note, I will be running a very tight 1 to 2 micron gas filter between the rusty gas tank and stock fuel pump. Planning on putting a mechanical pressure gauge at the carb inlet to know when the gas filter starts to load up. My available choices are 0-5, 0-10 and 0-25 psi scales. Would the 0 to 10 psi gauge scale be most appropriate there?

In the 70's when I was in high school, my friend put a tp filter on his car. At the time I thought it was the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of. But I can't deny the results - he always had the most unbelievably clean engine oil. And that is one of the motivating factors behind me wanting to add a 1 -2 micron bypass filter to my engine now.
That and my experience with my other cars, especially my honda civic. I bought that car new, changed the oil and filter (carefully filling the new filter with oil first) every time it hit 2500 miles (which was at least once a month as I was driving a lot of miles then). But after about 150k miles it started smoking (the car, not me), :) with a rattle for about 5 seconds before the oil pressure built up. So then I just concluded that an engine just does not last longer that that, even with perfect maintenance and never abused or over heated, etc.

But now I wonder... If I had been using better filters (I then always used valvoline and fram) if it would have lasted longer.

I've seen the receipts, the po I bought the truck from spent over $5k on just the engine (at a transmission and muffler shop), but, when looking down the oil filler tube, it looks like he never changed the oil in the 30k miles he put on it since then. The engine does not smoke or rattle now, and I want to keep it that way for many years to come. So I need everyone's help in choosing the best micro gas, water, air, and especially, especially oil filtration systems possible. Then it will be interesting to see how long an engine really will last before smoke and rattles begin.
 
A 10 psi a gauge would be the best for monitoring your fuel pressure. Make sure the filter is big. One of the drawbacks of high filtering (small micron) is reduced flow because of media restriction; smaller channels the fluid goes through to impinge the dirt. To compensate, a larger filter with more surface area has a lower pressure drop for a particular flow. Mechanical pumps are poor suckers.



Trevor, I never saw any rig with lifetime coolant:hand: maybe longlife. I our case IH and all the others usually said "permanent". Remember that back then permanent meant that that you didn't have to add or drain and refill the cooling system 2x a year as anti-freezes were alcohol base and ethylene was the new stuff on the block. Like anything else it falls apart and it was recommended it should be changed every 2 years.
 
That every 2 years is a good rule of thumb for all the fluids.

If it been over 2 years, you might want to think about changing it.

I like to do that with my brake and power steering fluids. Do I always get it done on time ?

No.

But it's is in the back of my mind somewhere.

As for the gas tank filter, I think napa has some big screw on types. I pulled my tank and clean it out. Not much rust, but a lot of organic matter ( little hard berries :icon_eh:) foil tops of of carb cleaner bottles, and small sticks.
 
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