Couple more Build questions.

jauringer

jauringer

Member
Unfortunately more questions. Robert, you've been such a big help with the couple I've already asked, I'm starting to feel like I need to run more past you:yikes:

304 contoured piston, .060 over, new kb pistons (non hypereutectic), isky split duration cam, 8.8cr

one is ring gap for sealed power, premium molly rings. Machinist recommended that I add .010" to the top ring which kind of goes along with some of the info I've read on kb's site. Just haven't found much on the second compression and oil control ring. Should I adjust them to the high side of spec as well? What would you recommend?

Second are lifter bore grooves? Hocus pocus? Seems like a pretty simple way to increase flow to the lifter/cam lobe contact area. What do you think about'em?

Thanks a bunch,
jason
 
Top ring gaps are increased for heat and the top ring will see the most. The bottom gap is less sensitive due to being shielded by the top ring. The problem arises from the inability to bleed off pressure between the top and bottom. The pressure needs to escape past the second gap. I would set it at just a bit smaller then the top. Assume you'll be around .0045/inch of bore or around .017-.018, set the second at .015.
Oil ring gaps should be fine as supplied.

Lifter grooves and face holes are interesting on for instance a sbc where lifter to bore clearances are around .001. The sv engines are running .003. .003 will oil very well. A bump in oil pressure should be enough to enhance cam oiling.
Hope this helps.
 
Late night working on the engine. Been verifying valve to piston clearance and degreeing cam. Thought I would get an early jump for you Sunday morning folks

clearance's all look great, it's cam timing I have a question about. Isky 256/262, 110 lobe separation.

Used the split centerline method and it's centerline is 115.5 degrees so I'm ~5.5 deg retarded, right? It looks like it's coming down to my timing gear set. Below is a picture of the dots lined up as closely as the gear set will allow. Seems to be retarded about 1/2 a tooth.

Wanted to know what you would do if it was yours? Locate an offset key (if even possible) for 110deg, advance it entire tooth, or let it be?

I'll probably be pushing it to 4krpm on a regular basis, but not much over that. I do a lot of in town driving and enjoy a good pull from a dead stop. These are open chamber heads, contoured piston setup @ 8.8cr (9.1 w/steel gasket) hope this info helps. Let me know if you need any more!

Thanks a lot!

Jason

100_2078.jpg
 
Robert kenney said:
which lobe is 115.5? If you measured the exhaust there I would leave it.
Click to expand...

It was the intake lobe @ 115.5.

Just for kicks, I advanced the cam 1 tooth from the above pic. Here's what it looks like now.

Intake lobe
center line 107.25
duration 201 (advertised 202 @ .050)
opens @ -7 btdc
closes @ 28 abdc

exhuast lobe
center line 113.25
duration 207.5 (advertised 208 @ .050)
opens @ 36.5 bbdc
closes @ -9 atdc

these number seem to look a little better hugh?

Thanks again Robert.

Jason
 
If you trust the measurements then your perfect now. Iirc 8 deg/ tooth. Looks like that's exactly what it shifted too.
Good job on that solution.
 
Fantastic! Feel good about the measurements. I've duplicated them three times on each lobe. It decreased my piston to valve clearance some however I'm still in the .100" min range (low @ 8 deg atdc), exhaust being roughly three times that. .040" off the deck seems to be about max for a contoured piston 304 w/ composite gasket.

Thanks a bunch Robert,
jason
 
Well, I got it running. Break in went relatively well. Had to shut her down @ the 15 minute Mark due to a poor connection at the pickup coil that was pretty much all me. However, she never dropped below 2k rpm and once I repaired the connection, I ran here for another 20 minutes. Was running Joe gibbs break in oil w/ a bottle of eos for good measure. After break-in was completed, I drained the oil in a clean container and did an inspection. All looked good so I threw on another filter, brad penn 15w40, and another bottle of eos.

Robert and this site have been crucial to me getting to this point and I really appreciate that. This has become a fantastic site with great builder info.

Anyway, I'm still tuning but here she is with about 3-4 miles on her, the next day after break in. She's running a little hot but I'm thinking that will all calm down as I get here broken in. 1 IH sv8 (contoured slug) back on the road.

Final number on the old contoured piston 304, 060" over bore, 8.9cr, isky 256/262, 10/10 crank, murphy's roller tip rockers, gasket matched ports, bowl work and polished on the exhaust side.

Video:
International Harvester sv8 304 - youtube
 
Hope everyone had a good easter. I've got a question.

I seem to have a lifter on each bank that is bleeding down too fast. They will pump up and are quiet during operation but if I shut the engine off, I can come back ~20 minutes later, start the truck and they start making noise again until they're pumped up. They also seem to take longer to pump up, especially when cold.

I've checked my cam lobes via dial indicator while I was in advancing the cam (back to 107 in. Cl...should have left it there in the first place. Live and learn.) so I know the cam is good.

I figured I would just replace the lifter? Or should I take the existing ones apart and clean them?

Also, do you think 20w50 is too thick for a new tight engine?

Thanks,
jason
 
I would steer away from the 20-50 if the lifters are slow to pump up..... Was the lifter symptom there when it was newly built?
Don't replace the lifter unless there is something wrong with it... Also it is mated with the cam. The mating won't ever be the same with another new lifter. I would remove it and see if you have some thing in the valving...
 
Robert kenney said:
I would steer away from the 20-50 if the lifters are slow to pump up..... Was the lifter symptom there when it was newly built?
Don't replace the lifter unless there is something wrong with it... I would remove it and see if you have some thing in the valving...
Click to expand...

Thanks Robert, no sir. I remember being surprised how little lifter noise there was during first start/break in. It's hardly clacked at all. It's at the 300 mile Mark now. I've been trying to remember exactly when it started happening.

I think it coincides with a couple things. (not that any of them have anything to do with it.) switching from 15w40 to 20w50 is one of them. I've also been playing with lifter preload, so that's changed a few times to get a feel for what I like. It's been as light as .025 to as heavy as it it's current setting @ .063.

I'll pull the two in question and take them apart. Also would be interested to know what weight and brand oil you use for your new sv's.

Thanks,
jason
 
I'l hold my toung about the possible causes... The lifter should refill in one or two strokes once it has oil surrounding it... That should be quick... How long does it tap after you have oil pressure on the gauge?
Since the oil comes from the rear of the gallery and the gallery is up from the feed point, the fronts are likely the last to see oil. I think the IH had the unique design of not much oil pressure in the gallery and a relitivly low fill and air purge rate. My 152 tickes a bit after sitting for a bit after being up at running temperatures. It May be 10 seconds max but usually 5 seconds. Under normal conditions I would expect the 152 pumps up quicker than a v8 simply based on having more volume to fill...

I buy one oil type and brand for all of my old iron and that is valvoline vr1 20-50..... I have and always use it in these vehicals. No sence in me changing my ways after many years of no failures... :icon_lol:

did you cut your first oil filter open? Lots of good info in that thing... If we suspect a possible cam bearing issue I would suggest an other filter change and cut to see if there is any evidence to that.
 
Robert kenney said:
I'l hold my toung about the possible causes... The lifter should refill in one or two strokes once it has oil surrounding it... That should be quick... How long does it tap after you have oil pressure on the gauge?
Since the oil comes from the rear of the gallery and the gallery is up from the feed point, the fronts are likely the last to see oil. I think the IH had the unique design of not much oil pressure in the gallery and a relitivly low fill and air purge rate. My 152 tickes a bit after sitting for a bit after being up at running temperatures. It May be 10 seconds max but usually 5 seconds. Under normal conditions I would expect the 152 pumps up quicker than a v8 simply based on having more volume to fill...

I buy one oil type and brand for all of my old iron and that is valvoline vr1 20-50..... I have and always use it in these vehicals. No sence in me changing my ways after many years of no failures... :icon_lol:

did you cut your first oil filter open? Lots of good info in that thing... If we suspect a possible cam bearing issue I would suggest an other filter change and cut to see if there is any evidence to that.
Click to expand...

All right, let me try to get to these without skipping anything. Thanks btw and definitely don't hold your tongue. I want to know if there is an issue I need to be looking at. 14 of the 16 act just as I understand that they should. I get a tick in the morning for a very short period of time. (never timed it) then they go quiet. (just as the old engine did). There are two that stay ticking for a bit. I would say maybe a 45 seconds to a minute. The Scout hasn't been driven since this morning so I just tried to time it for you. Of course it didn't do it. Then they will pump up and stay fine until the engine sits for ~20 minutes. (most of the time, obviously not all the time) I haven't quite isolated the lifter on the passenger side (looks like one of the two on #4) making noise however, I do think the driver side is the #3 intake.


As soon as I finished break in, I changed the filter and the oil. I also changed the oil again after a couple hundred miles. I inspected the oil on both and I cut the filter on both. I also cut the pleats out of the filters and spread them out on the table.

There was nothing that looked worrisome in either. The first change the oil did have some 'sparkle' in it but it wasn't to the point I thought something had failed.

Thanks for the oil info.

Edit: one more thing I forgot to mention. I've had the valve covers off several times. During break in, messing with the valves ect. I can see oil pushing up out of the lifters bores. They're definitely getting oil. Can't comment on the quantity but the oil is there.

Jason
 
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I had a pontiac firebird 400 back in the early 80's that I had rebuilt and I was pennzoil fan. For the life of me I could not get the lifters to pump up at all. I switched to castrol gtx 10-40 and no problem. Maybe try a different brand and see what happens. Danny
 
Well, hopefully I'm not speaking too soon but I had a chance to clean a few lifters last night. Like I said, I was pretty sure the #3 intake was the culprit on the driver side and one of the two on #4.

I cleaned all 4 just in case. Nothing really stood out on any of them but so far so good. Stayed up late last night just doing a little testing. Driving around the block, coming back and letting it sit and then doing it all over again. Once they initially pumped up, all seemed to be much better.

I've already had it out this morning as well and cold start is better too. The initial tick was just a tick, there were no stragglers and no clacking. I've started it a couple time at half hour intervals with success as well.

We'll see how it goes the rest of the day. I guess it would be cheap insurance to go ahead and change the oil again and cut this filter too. (wix) certainly wouldn't hurt anything.

Robert, a week or so ago I ready you do this every oil change which is what prompted me to go ahead and cut the other two. I think I'm going to do the same. My local speed shop has a filter cutter I might go ahead and pick up. I guess it would better than the angle grinder I used on the other two :icon_lol:

I think I might give the vr1 a try. It's inexpensive and it obviously does the job. You're not using the synthetic version are you Robert? I think I've seen where you recommend the purolator filter as well?

I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks a bunch.

Jason
 
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jauringer said:
. You're not using the synthetic version are you Robert?
I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks a bunch.

Jason
Click to expand...

Nope no synth-oil in my flat tappet engines...

As far as the viscosity of 20-50, the IH clearances are larger that the average GM etc. The cold end of 20 is fine... These used to call out straight 30. Late model crusader injected big block GM engines recommend straight 40...
 
Robert kenney said:
nope no synth-oil in my flat tappet engines...

As far as the viscosity of 20-50, the IH clearances are larger that the average GM etc. The cold end of 20 is fine... These used to call out straight 30. Late model crusader injected big block GM engines recommend straight 40...
Click to expand...


Great Robert, that does make sense. I'm running .002" on the rods and .0025 on the mains. Just as a check during this lifter deal, I pulled my in dash gauge and installed a nice oil filled gauge in the oil gallery. W/ 20w50, I'm @ 24 psi hot idle (700 rpm) and start getting very close (or at) the bypass around 2k,. Based on some numbers you posted a while back I've calculated my bypass to be at ~55spi. All readings which ended up being higher than those from the cheap little in dash gauge. .

on a side note, your recommendation on the cam placement seems to be right on . seat of the pants feel is noticeable going from 2 retarded to 3 advanced . I definitely feels like it's kicking in a little sooner and feels better . even though this is a little tractor engine, a dyno is about an hour away from here . I've been really curious to know what all these changes have done to the stock numbers

Danny, thanks to you too .

jason
 
Just a quick update. No clacky clacky yesterday! Still haven't changed the oil yet but I'll probably get to it this afternoon.

Jason
 
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