Correct TO bearing/sleeve assembly for a Scout II?

S

stu simpson

Member
I am trying to help out a couple of folks with throwout (to) issues. Both are experiencing problems that make it seem that their to assemblies are too short.

What is the correct length of the to assembly for a v8 Scout II with a t19? Does the type of clutch plate matter?

What is the correct to assemly loa for a sii with a 196ic and a t15 3 speed? Again, does the clutch plate matter?

I have recently been made aware that the v8 t90 takes the same bearing but a 2 13/16" sleeve. I have a 196ic/t19 setup on the floor of my shop, it worked when removed and uses a 3 3/8" long assembly.

All of the extra assemblies I have for sv applications are 3 3/8" long, which is not meant to imply that they themselves were right for the specific application. The bearing on these examples is pressed down to the shoulder of the machined surface/casting interface, not pressed onto the tip, which makes a 4" long assembly overall. Also, it seems that the correct finger heitght for all plates is 2.125 to 2.25", so the only variable should be the sleeve or the to fork on the cross-shaft in the bell. In these two above cases, the owners have determined that the bells and forks are not the issues.

Anybody?
 
Since I'm one of the guys stu referred to I'm going to chime in. Actually stu the more I think about this the more convinced I am that there must be a pressure plate with a much higher finger height. So does anyone have a listing of the various clutches and their finger heights?
 
All the critical clutch "adjustment" (bench adjustment) data is in the appropriate service manual...way too many pages to post here.

You will need to I.d. Your clutch cover by "model code" to reference the manual, same as for many other IH "option" components.

Same for the clutch cover "finger-to-throwout bearing clearance".

However, the parts list shows only one "clutch release sleeve" used with all clutch cover variations, p/n 416291c12.

Each clutch cover part number variation must be used with it's companion disc...thus there are three different disc p/n's used.

I have two of the "short" clutch release sleeves, they are identical. It's my understanding that these I have are used in fullsize pickalls, not Scout II. Unfortunately, like most parts, these don't carry any ihc p/n or other form of id. The dimensions "match" what stu posted regarding the overall length. However, the throwout bearing is pressed onto the "tip" of these collars, not all the way down the shank.

It's entirely possible that the throwout bearing being used in your application is the wrong inside diameter for the clutch application you have and is installed "too deep" on the collar.

Post #11 in this thread shows the two collars I describe:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/transmission-tech/1017-proper-clutch-identification.html
 
After some more researching yesterday I had an ah ha moment. Found some pics of 2 long throwout bearing collars that externally look identical except for a grease fitting but the inside bore is machined much different. The non greasable unit has a much deeper, about 1" more, front bore than the greasable unit. Could this be a superceeded partnumber? Is the non greaseable collar a late 70's part which would seem to coincide with the shorter input retainers of same vintage but still fit and work fine on the earlier long input retainer?

Fwiw the LST shows 011216 clutch which decodes to 11" Dana
 
The various throwout bearing sleeves encountered in IH stuff are not due to any parts supercession. They are dependent upon the transmission and clutch options by vehicle platform application.

The same clutch variations (along with engine/flywheel combo) could have been found in forklifts, aircraft tugs, prime movers, ag equipment, etc.,...any piece of equipment that May have used an ihc-produced power unit along with some variation of either an IH or warner gear or clark (or whatever) transmission (including a flywheel-driven pto).

There are significant differences in various transmission input shaft stickouts, that must match their respective bellhousings by platform app. The shaft stickout is spec'd by the oem...thus a Ford version of some warner gear trans will not interchange directly with some ihc, etc.

The "step" machining in these collars tells me they were mixed and matched with various throwout bearings in order to create the proper travel distance for one particular combination of "option" powertrain componentry.

The Scout II parts list shows only one single collar/throwout bearing used with all manual transmission/clutch variations.

In your case, it's most likely that at some point the wrong components were installed...most likely...the throwout bearing. Use the parts list to analyze this issue.
 
Following up on this thread.

In both cases the throwout bearing collar was the incorrect part.

In both cases the proper length to collar is 3 3/8". Both t19 applications had the short nose input bearing retainer assembly tube that the to sleeve rides on. The problem in rr's case was that the leading id machined surface of the to sleeve was too short. the correct length of the interior machined lead guide surface is almost 2". It was likely an aftermarket sleeve that got imported into the project by the po from a kit, and its lead surface was closer to 1". Since the machined (guide) surface was too short, as the sleeve moved forward to engage the fingers the guide reached the end of the snout and the assembly fell off into the grease pocket. Rr fixed the problem by sourcing a correct to sleeve, still 3 3/8" long, from an IH dealer.

This correct sleeve matched the one I have in my shop sitting on the input of a t19. My setup seemed to theoretically allow for full engagement of the pressure plate without any lateral or radial play and stayed on the tube through engagement. Mine must be an original or correct oem IH part for the application.

The other guy took a different route. He kept the short collar (2 13/16") from the v8 t90 application and replaced the bearing retainer/tube assembly. He apparently found a 4 bolt, full-length input retainer/tube assembly for a 4 speed, replaced the seal, and adjusted the clutch all the way in!!! I fear he paid 3 or 4 times the price for this assembly rather than for the correct to sleeve. I guess he needed to get the truck on the road before it was conclusively determined that he had the wrong to collar altogether, and that I might have a correct used part? I hope he doesn't have any bad issues. I doubt there is any adjustment left. My guess is that one day the to collar will fall out of the to fork fingers at full extension-engaged and will jam leaving the truck out of gear. Bad things May happen. Without a v8 t90 bell I was never able to verify that the position of the cross shaft of the crank was in the same position or if the to fork was sufficiently different to make up for the difference in to assembly length.

Both trucks are apparently on the road or driveable.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for closure on this thread stu!

We wish everyone would do the same, otherwise we never know if our back and forth was effective or not!

I've seen many similar "workarounds" on this same kinda stuff! Most always in regards to Scout 80 since the clutch actuation system on those is totally different from anything else in the IH world. And, those are very poorly designed from the git-go, and have no leeway for wear or throwout travel adjustment, yes the pushrod and pedal do have free-play adjustment, but once the clutch fork and the collar are worn down, the system is screwed and the workarounds begin in order to not have to remove the clutch and bell and fit it correctly!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top