After reading some of the threads talking 'bout the proper install of the shaft I pulled a cover on my motor to see how mine is installed. On my motor the witness notch is down, but I don't have the type of rocker seen in those threads or even in the shop manual. This is the way mine was installed since I've owned it - 18 years. I don't think the motor had ever been messed with previously since it had around 80k miles when I bought it. I had to replace cam bearings a couple years ago, and replaced the cam long time ago but I never pulled the rocker assemblies apart, so the towers have always been in the same relationship to the shaft. Installing the shaft with the notch facing up would put the oil holes on top in plain sight with boat type or stamped rockers. What gives?! Here's a couple pics of the shaft and a rocker, also showing the wear on a 160k mile motor - normal?
"Boat" type rocker assembly question
- Thread starter scouttoo
- Start date
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
I would say that is normal especially since you have had the cam bearings die on you so for at least for a short time the rockers May have been poorly lubed. The oil hole (boat rockers only) would need to be located such that is oiled the load surfaces like you show and not shooting the under side of the valve covers. You had it ok. I just looked at a used boat rocker shaft and it showed less wear but I am not sure how many miles it had on it. Mm sent it to me for a test setup sooooo... He will know.
Robert
Robert
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ronmc1954
Member
Scouttoo; did you see the tread on the 5 post rocker? Pics show one dissasembled.
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/gas-engine-tech/963-5-post-rocker-assembly.html
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/gas-engine-tech/963-5-post-rocker-assembly.html
Thanks for the replies. I pulled the other cover and of course it was installed the same. I also just looked at those pics for the 5-stand. So, is the 9-stand an older set-up? Seems like the shaft could be freshened by welding closed the existing oil holes and drilling new ones on the other side providing a new contact surface? At what point does the wear of the rocker assembly require longer push rods?
The reason I checked this out was because of valvetrain noise. My Scout will sometimes sit 2-3 weeks without being run. I can hear the lifters quiet down fairly quick after starting except for one tapping sound - sounds like the front cyl on the right bank. It does go away after several minutes. This motor has always had some valvetrain noise ever since I've owned the Scout, but the long lasting noise is since the new cam bearings, cam and lifters. I've only put 1,500 miles on it in the last 2 years.
The reason I checked this out was because of valvetrain noise. My Scout will sometimes sit 2-3 weeks without being run. I can hear the lifters quiet down fairly quick after starting except for one tapping sound - sounds like the front cyl on the right bank. It does go away after several minutes. This motor has always had some valvetrain noise ever since I've owned the Scout, but the long lasting noise is since the new cam bearings, cam and lifters. I've only put 1,500 miles on it in the last 2 years.
ronmc1954
Member
Scouttoo, yes the nine post "stamped" rockers are the older version of IH rockers. Unless you find a good used set somewhere, new stamped rockers just are not availible, boat style are. I think some might say the can rebiuld the stamped rocker but I think the general concentses is just stick with the 5 post assmebly. I you can feel actual wear on your rocker shaft you acn also assume the boat rockers are also worn, possibly causing the noise you hear. I think ihon has shafts and boat style rockers if you need them.
If you go back to the thread for 5 post rocker there are 2 other links in the first post that pretty much tell you all you need to know about the IH rockers and their lubrication problems. Imho unless your shafts clean up better than in your pic, they look worn.
Lifter rattle is common at start up but should quiet down after running.
Another option for you is find another motor, the 5 post assembly in my pics came from a 345 in a junk loadstar which cost me nothing.
Ron
If you go back to the thread for 5 post rocker there are 2 other links in the first post that pretty much tell you all you need to know about the IH rockers and their lubrication problems. Imho unless your shafts clean up better than in your pic, they look worn.
Lifter rattle is common at start up but should quiet down after running.
Another option for you is find another motor, the 5 post assembly in my pics came from a 345 in a junk loadstar which cost me nothing.
Ron
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Let's try and straighten this out one more time!
First...no ihc-produced service reference has correct illustrations and text for all rocker assembly variations (or any other part/component/assembly). I've said this over and over, these manuals are references...not gospel!
We fully realize the confusion this creates when folks who are enthusiasts/hobbyists are not trained vehicle service professionals, but that is just the way it is! And...that is exactly why this forum exists...to separate fact from myth and provide some background info regarding variations that exist in vehicles and components that span a production life of nearly 60 years...but have not been manufactured since 1984 (speaking of sv engines here). There is much information to learn/understand that is not in any IH service reference, those manuals were updated through the use of sales/parts/service/fleet "bulletins" and we just don't have access to that information as it's never been reproduced for current resale/distribution.
If one has access to all ihc-produced parts and serive manuals for all light/medium duty vehicles produced between say 1957 and 1984, you will see some inclusion of "updated" information, but it's very rare...that is just the way ihc did it...a dealer handled that by constantly making certain that all literature was corrected using the bulletins and revised reference pages.
But what we have today as repop service literature, is simply a "snapshot" of a "master" publication that was used for the reproduction process. And we're dam lucky to be able to have that stuff thanks to Scout light line and binder books!
The two pics that scouttoo posted show perfectly normal wear pattern for the boat or stamped rocker assembly as Robert pointed out. And imho, after looking at hundreds of these items, I do not think they are as durable and trouble-free as the original design welded rocker units which incorporated an inserted bronze/steel composite bushing. But then...onna 160,000 mile motor what would anyone expect??? I mean...this shit wears out! It's no different than any other engine, no matter what the "ihc mythology" claims!
Right now, toddjo and I are doing a Ford fe (390) build, those motors used exactly the same rocker assembly scenario as the IH stuff, but are not nearly as well engineered imho. And the motor we're doing is a solid lifter/adjustable rocker variation. That is a fact attested to by the many variations of "upgrade" parts that are available for the Ford fe engine series. And likewise, they have their own unique set of "lubrication/durability" issues too. If ya study the massive knowledge base for the fe series, ya find tons of problems associated with the valve train...along with tons of solutions! But that doesn't make an fe an sv or vice versa!
The only reason for ihc going to the stamped/five stand rocker assembly was cost reduction, there is no doubt that even with tooling cost associated, that change reduced the production cost of the I-4/sv motors significantly. In my book, that was a giant step backwards but obviously it worked well enough to "meet" (but not exceed) a longevity/performance standard based upon engineering criteria.
No supplier currently manufactures new nine stand/welded rocker shafts, they were available up until about three years ago. Neither are new rocker stands available in any type of quantity/dependable supply. Same for new or reconditioned welded rocker arms and I promise ya...Scout light line and ihon have researched this issue extensively!
But ihon does have a limited supply of perfectly usable used welded rocker arms (intake and exhaust), rocker stands (both types, oiler and non-oiler), and very few used nine stand rocker shafts.
And...in some cases, there are additional fixes for parts supply problems that are too extensive to go into here. We would welcome anyone contacting us personally to discuss your particular situation so that we can help ya in determining the best way to approach an issue regarding the valve train in general.
Based upon design...boat-type rockers must have the rocker shaft installed to the engine with the oil holes for the rocker bearing point down. Welded-type rockers muast have the shaft installed with the oil holes for the rocker bushings up! That is a simple concept to understand just by looking at each when compared.
Any form of "reclaiming" machine work to re-condition nine stand/welded rocker shafts is simply not any where near cost effective. Just try drilling a scrap shaft using commonly available tooling and that fact will be evident. So that means ya either source good used stuff, or ya make a boat rocker conversion.
Likewise for the welded rockers, the last source for the bushings needed for the reman industry to continue to bring those back to life is history! It's simply good sense on the part of the suppliers, there is just no demand for those type parts any longer in the market place, either wholesale, retail, or at the commercial engine rebuilder point. And the only real market for stuff like that is/was the commercial engine rebuilder.
There are multiple ways that these systems can be assembled though, I recently found one engine with nine stand welded rockers on one side, and five stand boat rockers on the other. Would I do that? Hail no! But it can be done very successfully! All that's needed is proper assembly technique and correct push rod application.
I also have here one pair of rocker shaft assemblies that have mixed welded and boat rockers!!! Will that work?? Shit no! But the motor will run until the lubrication issue (lack thereof) causes a valve to seize in it's guide resulting inna dead cylinder or three!
The "lifter noise" thang is a totally separate issue as far as diagnostics...but, it's very common to find a motor with both issues, along with cam bearings leaving the scene being root cause of failure!!!
The lifter noise issue on some I-4/sv motors is a design problem in my book. But who cares as long as it cures itself within a few minutes of operation?? Don't park the rig with the nose higher than the azz! Run a purolator pure one, or a wix, or a hastings, or a baldwin oil filter and the issue can also be minimized but not eliminated. How about replacing the lifters onna old/tired motor?? They do become shitee inside when the oil is only changed once a decade!
Longer pushrods will not cure this design issue, neither will cutting down the rockers stands. And many times, the lifter tick only comes about after a cylinder head service has been performed and the dam machine shop did not set the "installed height" to spec. Now the used lifters either can't compensate for a change oin valve train geometry, ot the the lifter guts are operating inna "new" position and are sticking internally due to varnish accumulation. And new lifters will not "fix" a cylinder head that has had the valves and seats cut and incorrectly assembled.
First...no ihc-produced service reference has correct illustrations and text for all rocker assembly variations (or any other part/component/assembly). I've said this over and over, these manuals are references...not gospel!
We fully realize the confusion this creates when folks who are enthusiasts/hobbyists are not trained vehicle service professionals, but that is just the way it is! And...that is exactly why this forum exists...to separate fact from myth and provide some background info regarding variations that exist in vehicles and components that span a production life of nearly 60 years...but have not been manufactured since 1984 (speaking of sv engines here). There is much information to learn/understand that is not in any IH service reference, those manuals were updated through the use of sales/parts/service/fleet "bulletins" and we just don't have access to that information as it's never been reproduced for current resale/distribution.
If one has access to all ihc-produced parts and serive manuals for all light/medium duty vehicles produced between say 1957 and 1984, you will see some inclusion of "updated" information, but it's very rare...that is just the way ihc did it...a dealer handled that by constantly making certain that all literature was corrected using the bulletins and revised reference pages.
But what we have today as repop service literature, is simply a "snapshot" of a "master" publication that was used for the reproduction process. And we're dam lucky to be able to have that stuff thanks to Scout light line and binder books!
The two pics that scouttoo posted show perfectly normal wear pattern for the boat or stamped rocker assembly as Robert pointed out. And imho, after looking at hundreds of these items, I do not think they are as durable and trouble-free as the original design welded rocker units which incorporated an inserted bronze/steel composite bushing. But then...onna 160,000 mile motor what would anyone expect??? I mean...this shit wears out! It's no different than any other engine, no matter what the "ihc mythology" claims!
Right now, toddjo and I are doing a Ford fe (390) build, those motors used exactly the same rocker assembly scenario as the IH stuff, but are not nearly as well engineered imho. And the motor we're doing is a solid lifter/adjustable rocker variation. That is a fact attested to by the many variations of "upgrade" parts that are available for the Ford fe engine series. And likewise, they have their own unique set of "lubrication/durability" issues too. If ya study the massive knowledge base for the fe series, ya find tons of problems associated with the valve train...along with tons of solutions! But that doesn't make an fe an sv or vice versa!
The only reason for ihc going to the stamped/five stand rocker assembly was cost reduction, there is no doubt that even with tooling cost associated, that change reduced the production cost of the I-4/sv motors significantly. In my book, that was a giant step backwards but obviously it worked well enough to "meet" (but not exceed) a longevity/performance standard based upon engineering criteria.
No supplier currently manufactures new nine stand/welded rocker shafts, they were available up until about three years ago. Neither are new rocker stands available in any type of quantity/dependable supply. Same for new or reconditioned welded rocker arms and I promise ya...Scout light line and ihon have researched this issue extensively!
But ihon does have a limited supply of perfectly usable used welded rocker arms (intake and exhaust), rocker stands (both types, oiler and non-oiler), and very few used nine stand rocker shafts.
And...in some cases, there are additional fixes for parts supply problems that are too extensive to go into here. We would welcome anyone contacting us personally to discuss your particular situation so that we can help ya in determining the best way to approach an issue regarding the valve train in general.
Based upon design...boat-type rockers must have the rocker shaft installed to the engine with the oil holes for the rocker bearing point down. Welded-type rockers muast have the shaft installed with the oil holes for the rocker bushings up! That is a simple concept to understand just by looking at each when compared.
Any form of "reclaiming" machine work to re-condition nine stand/welded rocker shafts is simply not any where near cost effective. Just try drilling a scrap shaft using commonly available tooling and that fact will be evident. So that means ya either source good used stuff, or ya make a boat rocker conversion.
Likewise for the welded rockers, the last source for the bushings needed for the reman industry to continue to bring those back to life is history! It's simply good sense on the part of the suppliers, there is just no demand for those type parts any longer in the market place, either wholesale, retail, or at the commercial engine rebuilder point. And the only real market for stuff like that is/was the commercial engine rebuilder.
There are multiple ways that these systems can be assembled though, I recently found one engine with nine stand welded rockers on one side, and five stand boat rockers on the other. Would I do that? Hail no! But it can be done very successfully! All that's needed is proper assembly technique and correct push rod application.
I also have here one pair of rocker shaft assemblies that have mixed welded and boat rockers!!! Will that work?? Shit no! But the motor will run until the lubrication issue (lack thereof) causes a valve to seize in it's guide resulting inna dead cylinder or three!
The "lifter noise" thang is a totally separate issue as far as diagnostics...but, it's very common to find a motor with both issues, along with cam bearings leaving the scene being root cause of failure!!!
The lifter noise issue on some I-4/sv motors is a design problem in my book. But who cares as long as it cures itself within a few minutes of operation?? Don't park the rig with the nose higher than the azz! Run a purolator pure one, or a wix, or a hastings, or a baldwin oil filter and the issue can also be minimized but not eliminated. How about replacing the lifters onna old/tired motor?? They do become shitee inside when the oil is only changed once a decade!
Longer pushrods will not cure this design issue, neither will cutting down the rockers stands. And many times, the lifter tick only comes about after a cylinder head service has been performed and the dam machine shop did not set the "installed height" to spec. Now the used lifters either can't compensate for a change oin valve train geometry, ot the the lifter guts are operating inna "new" position and are sticking internally due to varnish accumulation. And new lifters will not "fix" a cylinder head that has had the valves and seats cut and incorrectly assembled.
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Thanks again guys. When I looked at the pieces it seemed to me it was installed properly, I just wanted to make sure. Obviously 9 stands are gonna hold the shaft better than 5 - deflection. I'm running napa 20w50 oil, could there be any benefit to using a synthetic in the same weight to help quiet the lifters or would it be worse? I wondered just how hard the shaft is to drill! I know the rockers are gettin oiled because of oil pooled in the recesses of the rocker. So, longer pushrods can't compensate for wear of the rocker assembly?
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
The only way to "compensate" for wear in the entire rocker assembly is to replace the shaft and rockers with new! And because of the inherent slop in the boat rocker setup (they flop all over the place at speed), that won't make any difference either unless the lifters are at the end of available "travel" and can't compensate for variations in valve train total dimension.
With the boat rockers/shaft ya can't even measure the wear inna cumulative fashion as ya can with the welded rockers/shaft. Ya can only measure the "roundness" of the shaft at the point of contact. If you are concerned with the rocker/shaft wear, then simply replace both assemblies with new parts, those are very reasonably priced! You would need only two shafts and 16 rockers, ya don't need all the associated "conversion kit" parts.
Review the information Robert has posted regarding standard hydraulic lifter "preload" and you can readily see that the oem lifter travel is far more than sufficient to compensate fopr any wear that May ever be present inna ihc assembly.
That is not why your lifters are tickin'!!!
Heavier viscosity oil will do nothing for lifter tick as well, May even prolong it! But it will increase oil pressure a measurable amount, but the filters I mentioned will make the most difference regarding pressure.
Just having oil "in" the boats doesn't mean squat...ya gotta watch the lubrication action while the motor is running. Oil residue in the boats could simply come from the oil mist/throwoff up the lifter access hole from the lifter gallery. That is why you watch that area witha flashlight while the motor is running!
One more time...the oil selected has nothing to do with top end lubrication, it's all a function of an ihc engineered lubrication scenario which is completely unlike any other chryfordrolet motor in that respect! Put 10 wt. Hydraulic oil in it, put 85-140 gear oil in it, won't make any difference to the lifters except for longevity!
See this thread for a current example of a non/poor oiling motor:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/gas-engine-tech/1016-waynes-non-oiler-392-a.html
With the boat rockers/shaft ya can't even measure the wear inna cumulative fashion as ya can with the welded rockers/shaft. Ya can only measure the "roundness" of the shaft at the point of contact. If you are concerned with the rocker/shaft wear, then simply replace both assemblies with new parts, those are very reasonably priced! You would need only two shafts and 16 rockers, ya don't need all the associated "conversion kit" parts.
Review the information Robert has posted regarding standard hydraulic lifter "preload" and you can readily see that the oem lifter travel is far more than sufficient to compensate fopr any wear that May ever be present inna ihc assembly.
That is not why your lifters are tickin'!!!
Heavier viscosity oil will do nothing for lifter tick as well, May even prolong it! But it will increase oil pressure a measurable amount, but the filters I mentioned will make the most difference regarding pressure.
Just having oil "in" the boats doesn't mean squat...ya gotta watch the lubrication action while the motor is running. Oil residue in the boats could simply come from the oil mist/throwoff up the lifter access hole from the lifter gallery. That is why you watch that area witha flashlight while the motor is running!
One more time...the oil selected has nothing to do with top end lubrication, it's all a function of an ihc engineered lubrication scenario which is completely unlike any other chryfordrolet motor in that respect! Put 10 wt. Hydraulic oil in it, put 85-140 gear oil in it, won't make any difference to the lifters except for longevity!
See this thread for a current example of a non/poor oiling motor:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/gas-engine-tech/1016-waynes-non-oiler-392-a.html