Bilstein-5100 question

[Patrick Morris]

Bilstein claims this shock has "independent rebound and compression tuning"; and one vendor (that a friend of mine asked--not IHOnly btw) states that the adjustments are accessible externally. Unfortunately, their explanation was also laced with marketing hype and double-talk.

My question is, do these shocks have two external knobs (or similar), one for compression and one for rebound?

Edit: the actual p/n he was asking about is #5125 in case it matters.

 

[ihpartsjeff]

The Bilstein 5100 shocks that we sell do not have any tuning knobs nor am I familiar with a Bilstein product that does. Really this question would best be directed to Bilstein themselves.

 

[Patrick Morris]

No, but thanks Jeff. You've answered my question. Bilstein's description is clearly hype, or at least exaggerated. Since you handle these shocks you'd know in a minute if they have adjustments of this kind, just like anyone who's ever handled a rancho 9000 shock will know it's got a little knob on the bottom for changing the damping. If Bilstein's shock are "tunable" it's not done without disassembly, which would be a horrible pita for the average truck owner---not that they aren't great shocks out of the box. (I wouldn't mind trying them myself.)

the reason I asked the question is that a buddy of mine wants better shocks for his '72 Scout. He (like me) is running the r9000s all the way around. But their single adjustment control both compression and rebound, which is okay, but not optimum I guess. He is a dirtbiker from way back. I guess motorcycle shocks have the ability to adjust the two characteristics independently and with dramatically different results. Anyway, so he's looking for a Scout-compatible shock that'll do this. So the search goes on. Fwiw, companies like fox and king make some pretty insane shocks with 4-way external adjustment for race and pre-runner trucks but they typically cost $700+ per shock. Ouch.

 

[ihpartsjeff]

It would be nice to have a economical adjustable shock similiar to what is found on dirt bikes and quads but economical is the key word.

 

[RobertC]

no, but thanks Jeff. You've answered my question. Bilstein's description is clearly hype, or at least exaggerated. Since you handle these shocks you'd know in a minute if they have adjustments of this kind, just like anyone who's ever handled a rancho 9000 shock will know it's got a little knob on the bottom for changing the damping. If Bilstein's shock are "tunable" it's not done without disassembly, which would be a horrible pita for the average truck owner---not that they aren't great shocks out of the box. (I wouldn't mind trying them myself.)

the reason I asked the question is that a buddy of mine wants better shocks for his '72 Scout. He (like me) is running the r9000s all the way around. But their single adjustment control both compression and rebound, which is okay, but not optimum I guess. He is a dirtbiker from way back. I guess motorcycle shocks have the ability to adjust the two characteristics independently and with dramatically different results. Anyway, so he's looking for a Scout-compatible shock that'll do this. So the search goes on. Fwiw, companies like fox and king make some pretty insane shocks with 4-way external adjustment for race and pre-runner trucks but they typically cost $700+ per shock. Ouch.

No, it is not hype, but it is marketing...

Bascially, "they" are talking about the internal construction of the shock. To understand the "differences" you would have to spend time on the various aftermarket shock site studying their diagrams...

Looking at the Bilstein website, they will provide "custom" compression / rebound valving for 5100 (and probably 5125) series shock. I doubt the price will be the same as the "off the shelf" 5100 shock. And, you will have to know what you "want" - I doubt they (anybody) will provide a "shock engineer" to figure out the unspring weight / spring rate / etc for a Scout II.

Bilstein does provide an externally adjustable shock - 9100 series, but the price appears to start around $300. - $400.

No aftermarket supplier is going to provide an "off the shelf" shock (of any type) specifically "tuned" for scouts -- not enough of a "market".

Many years ago, I went to a "4wd store" to try to get rancho shocks for my 2wd 1210 t/a -- the guy (owner?) was not even interested in "looking" for a set.

Fwiw, Jeff / ihon put a set of Bilstein 5100 on my t/a a little over year ago (11,000+ miles).

Are they perfect, sometimes I vacillate -- and think I would like a little "stiffer" valving on the next set.

But, they are very good... Would you think so? I have no idea...

As Jeff states, it is the "economics"...

 

[random thoughts racing]

Joel from Bilstein here, to answer your question if the 5100 or 5125 series shock is externally adjustable... No. If chossing a Bilstein I would reccomend starting with 255/70 valving front and rear on a Scout.

Making an adjustable twin tube (rancho) is fairly simple and cheap. Making an adjustable monotube (Bilstein) is not so simple or cheap. Performance wise, twin tube and monotube arent even in the same category.

Bilstein claims this shock has "independent rebound and compression tuning"; and one vendor (that a friend of mine asked--not IHOnly btw) states that the adjustments are accessible externally. Unfortunately, their explanation was also laced with marketing hype and double-talk.

My question is, do these shocks have two external knobs (or similar), one for compression and one for rebound?

Edit: the actual p/n he was asking about is #5125 in case it matters.

 

[Patrick Morris]

Thanks for answering joel. And just as I was about to make the wisecrack: "marketing = hype". But I have always liked bilsteins so I won't go there

in fact, I've got the distinction of having owned the first subaru in the world to ever wear bilsteins. But that's a story for another time. So, are you in poway? In my readings I've seen that Bilstein has a western office there.

I really don't know that much about the ranchos, despite having them on my rig for a couple of years. For instance I have no clue of the relative valving (xxx/xx). And I have to assume that clicking little dial up numerically must increase rebound and compression equally, making them "stiffer" overall. It's okay if you're trying to compensate for changing vehicle weight, as in being loaded up for an expedition vs. Just driving around town. Stuff like that.

I was looking at the #9100 external bypass Shocks. That would seem to be the way to go. They aren't cheap, but from my research they're a lot less money than say, equivalent king shocks.

Speaking of that, I May as well throw in a picture from our desert trip last weekend. On the left is my buddy's Scout. He's the one who brought up all this shock business. On the right is my Scout. The dark f150 in the center belongs to my friend chris. Speaking of economics (as Jeff brought up), that Ford looks kind of stock but there's a lot of money sunk into it. It's got four king bypass shocks plus new springs, a currie 9-inch 4.56 racing rear diff, front gear change plus eaton trutrack to match the rear, three mastercraft rubicon seats, four hid driving lights up front, plus numerous other little things. And all of it he paid someone else to install I'm sure.

 

[75scout2]

no, it is not hype, but it is marketing...

Bascially, "they" are talking about the internal construction of the shock. To understand the "differences" you would have to spend time on the various aftermarket shock site studying their diagrams...

Looking at the Bilstein website, they will provide "custom" compression / rebound valving for 5100 (and probably 5125) series shock. I doubt the price will be the same as the "off the shelf" 5100 shock. And, you will have to know what you "want" - I doubt they (anybody) will provide a "shock engineer" to figure out the unspring weight / spring rate / etc for a Scout II.

Bilstein does provide an externally adjustable shock - 9100 series, but the price appears to start around $300. - $400.

No aftermarket supplier is going to provide an "off the shelf" shock (of any type) specifically "tuned" for scouts -- not enough of a "market".

Many years ago, I went to a "4wd store" to try to get rancho shocks for my 2wd 1210 t/a -- the guy (owner?) was not even interested in "looking" for a set.

Fwiw, Jeff / ihon put a set of Bilstein 5100 on my t/a a little over year ago (11,000+ miles).

Are they perfect, sometimes I vacillate -- and think I would like a little "stiffer" valving on the next set.

But, they are very good... Would you think so? I have no idea...

As Jeff states, it is the "economics"...

Bilstein also has their 7100 series shocks that are cheaper than the 9100's. 9100's are a 2.5 inch body shock, where as the 7100's are 2.0. They come with or with out an external reservoir and custom valving. If you go on their website, they have a list of pre determinded valvings you can choose from, but if you give them a call, 800-537-1085 ask for either shane or joel. They can custom make a valving set up per your specs. They pretty much are the go to guys for their offroad shock market. I have delt with them a lot with my pre runner I had that was equipped with 9100's all around. They know their stuff.

 

[RobertC]

Bilstein also has their 7100 series shocks that are cheaper than the 9100's. 9100's are a 2.5 inch body shock, where as the 7100's are 2.0. They come with or with out an external reservoir and custom valving. If you go on their website, they have a list of pre determinded valvings you can choose from, but if you give them a call, 800-537-1085 ask for either shane or joel. They can custom make a valving set up per your specs. They pretty much are the go to guys for their offroad shock market. I have delt with them a lot with my pre runner I had that was equipped with 9100's all around. They know their stuff.

Thanks for the info...

I "saw" the 7100's (but did not read about them) as I was only looking for the adjustable series - per patrick's post...

The 5100s on my t/a were purchased / installed at ihon, so I would talk to Jeff (who would talk to shane / joel) when / if I decide to change...

Actually, I have not been on too many dirt roads since they were installed -- 99.5% highway miles...

 

[Patrick Morris]

Yeah, I'm starting to think the real benefit of the 9100s and other similar, technically complex shocks is for pre-runners and the like. Basically, they're great to have for driving fast over rough terrain---some of those shocks even have independently adjustable high- and low-speed damping! That's in addition to the independent rebound and compression adjustments. They might be way overkill for a general purpose rig.

That Ford truck above illustrates the difference. It looks almost stock, especially compared to the two scouts and the toyota pictured. And the owner has a little bit of a harder time in rocky and twisty terrain than we do. But he's got 12" - 18" of travel at each wheel and can drive 60+ mph on whooped out roads that would beat me to death if I tried them at 25 mph. (my solution has always been to avoid those roads as much as possible.)

the 5100s are actually starting to make a lot of sense, especially if valved per joel's recommendation.

 

[75scout2]

Also if you look at their site they have a 9100 rock crawler series. They come in coil over and non coil over. They to can be custom valved...as far as the external by pass shocks that is over kill but it is so worth it. This is the route I plan on going with my Scout. As I want akittle of both worlds, crawling and hauling lol I even plan on using hydro bumps like I did on my prerunner.

 

[random thoughts racing]

As to the shane / joel question.... Shane is sales while I am the race/tuning guy (also run the off road dept.). I am gone for 2 days in support of the parker des race then 8 days for the king of the hammers race. So... If you want an office answer call the office if you are racing... Find me at the race.

 

[random thoughts racing]

I wish I were in the pic patrick. Will we see you out at king of the hammers? Ill pitch all of the marketing tuning into your rig as I can!

thanks for answering joel. And just as I was about to make the wisecrack: "marketing = hype". But I have always liked bilsteins so I won't go there

in fact, I've got the distinction of having owned the first subaru in the world to ever wear bilsteins. But that's a story for another time. So, are you in poway? In my readings I've seen that Bilstein has a western office there.

I really don't know that much about the ranchos, despite having them on my rig for a couple of years. For instance I have no clue of the relative valving (xxx/xx). And I have to assume that clicking little dial up numerically must increase rebound and compression equally, making them "stiffer" overall. It's okay if you're trying to compensate for changing vehicle weight, as in being loaded up for an expedition vs. Just driving around town. Stuff like that.

I was looking at the #9100 external bypass Shocks. That would seem to be the way to go. They aren't cheap, but from my research they're a lot less money than say, equivalent king shocks.

Speaking of that, I May as well throw in a picture from our desert trip last weekend. On the left is my buddy's Scout. He's the one who brought up all this shock business. On the right is my Scout. The dark f150 in the center belongs to my friend chris. Speaking of economics (as Jeff brought up), that Ford looks kind of stock but there's a lot of money sunk into it. It's got four king bypass shocks plus new springs, a currie 9-inch 4.56 racing rear diff, front gear change plus eaton trutrack to match the rear, three mastercraft rubicon seats, four hid driving lights up front, plus numerous other little things. And all of it he paid someone else to install I'm sure.

 

[Patrick Morris]

Wow, has it really been three and a half years gone by? My shocks project has taken quite a back seat to other things.... Building a new roof-rack, cutting and turning the front d44, and some personal things.

So I'm finally moving ahead with this project. Further information and updates can be found here.