Backfire at the carb

eightOsix

Member
The truck I am working on is a ’65 d1100 4x4. T98 tranny with a np202 tc, Dana 44’s front and rear. The engine is a 72ish 345 with the “e” stuff deleted. I believe it originally came with a 304.
Carburation is a stock holly 2300 which I have completely rebuilt, jetted at #48 mains – I am at 9000 feet elevation. Air screws are set about two turns out where it seems to run well and I get the highest vacuum reading, which is about 13 and steady at 750-800rpm. Last time I checked I had a good pump shot.
The stock holly points dizzy is set at 8* btdc, although I believe the truck runs better at 12-15*. Dwell is 25. Within the last couple years I have installed all new points, plugs, wires, cap. Oil pressure will start up at around 50 psi, and then drop off to around 5 at warm idle. Pressure will come up with increased rpm.
This truck has an easy life - just drive around the valley, no highway driving, no wheeling. Last spring I noticed that I was getting a popping noise from the carb on acceleration, but only when the engine hot.
I did a number of checks to try and cure the problem. Checked for exhaust leaks – ok. Checked for vacuum leaks all around the carb – ok. Steady vacuum confirmed this. Checked the timing and dwell and set as above.
I checked all my spark plug wires, checked routing and confirmed firing order. Installed some new wire separators. Checked the motor in the dark and could not see any arcing.
The problem persisted. With the air cleaner off, hot engine, the popping is more of a backfire, and appears to come from the passenger side venturi. Sometime there is also a knock, again only with hot engine, that seems to be associated with the backfiring. Here is a link to a video Where you can hear the knock and see the vacuum gauge drop about 1 mm with each knock.
So I started to believe that I was having an issue with a sticking intake valve. The truck sat all summer while I dealt with other commitments, but last week I jumped back in.
I removed the pass side valve cover with a warm engine and confirmed that all the valves were moving, push rods were rotating. Didn’t look to me like there was a lot of oil moving around, but I’m not sure how much there is supposed to be. There was oil drooling at several of the valve stems but I couldn’t confirm oil at all of them. I pulled the valve train and disassembled per instruction on this site. I had to tap the stands off the shaft, and I had significant wear at several rocker locations. However, the top of the head was relatively clean and the spit holes were all open. The rocker oil passages were clear. I cleaned the inside of the shaft, which had some grunge but was by no means clogged. See attached photos.
I removed the dizzy, fabbed up a tool and rotated the engine while turning the oil pump. Pressure went right up to 50 at the gauge, and when I got to where oil would flow out of the supply hole there seemed to be an adequate amount. The drainback is slow, but it does eventually drain. Without taking the driver side valve train off I verified that there was oil flow to the rocker shaft with the drill. Even so, I took the drivers side valve train off and did the cleaning routine. This shaft also had wear at two rocker stations. With each I lightly buffed the damaged areas with emery cloth. I know that out of spec shaft/rockers (clearance at the worst spot is around .011) will make the engine not perform as well as it could, but I am hoping that with adequate oil the engine will run reasonably well. So, my first question: would the worn rocker shaft cause the backfiring at the carb?
All of the pushrods and rockers appeared to have similar wear, with the pushrods having a slight flat spot. The assemblies were reinstalled and torqued to 12#. Spinning the drill confirms rapid and profuse oiling at the stands. I couldn’t run the drill long enough to verify oil at each rocker because of the messy overflow.
Got the dizzy restabbed and the motor running. Reset the timing to 8*. Let the engine warm up and burn off all the spilt oil. After the engine got hot the backfire on acceleration was still there. Didn’t hear the knock.
So that’s where I am right now, about the same place as I was last spring, except I know that the valve train is clean and the valve covers look great with some new paint. Not really sure of what the problem is. I was thinking of doing a wet and dry compression test and maybe a leak down test. I also should visually check the valve train with a hot engine. I was also thinking of going back to 50 main jets.
Any suggestions or comments are appreciated.
 

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The 'snap' sounds like a spark jumping to ground, not a mechanical problem like a bad valve. At 9000 ft elevation, that would be like 4 jet # lean compared to the original sea level carb jets, which could be from #50 to #53 - depending on application. Carb jets are not an 'exact' number and a jet# will cover about 2000 ft elevation range up or down without much problem. I would tend to stay with the #48 jets in the 275cfm Holley 2300 for your elevation. Consider a low restriction air filter element if you have the correct housing. If the engine has been spitting back through the carb - doesn't matter which side, the power valve May be damaged. There is a small valve that can be installed in the carb to resist damaging the power valve from the spit back. Check at a local speed shop. Might try a power valve with a lower opening value, like maybe a #4.5. The dwell should be between 28* and 32*. Need to adjust the setting of the points. What plugs did you use and what is the sparkplug 'gap'? Have you checked the vacuum advance unit and verified the mechanical advance is working correctly = not stuck?
Sez me sitting here at sea level!
 
Hi there bill.
That would be great if the knock was an errant spark. I probably fixed it with all the manipulating of the wires, plugs and distributor, but it sounded more like a knock to me.
I had done some research before jetting down from 50 to 48, so I feel pretty comfortable with the jetting, I drove the truck quite a few miles with those jets.
My air filter is oil bath style. I thought the new Holley power valves were resistant to blowing under backfire? And a blown power valve wouldn't cause a backfire, would it? I am sure that I replaced it when I did the rebuild, but don’t recall what number is in there.
I could fiddle with the air gap and get it right, but that is not what’s causing the backfire – right? Plugs are brand new a-85 gapped at .035. Last time I checked the advance it was working fine. I will recheck. But would the vacuum advance not working cause backfire only on a hot engine?
 

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If you are still hearing the 'snap' sound linked to in the first post, listen to the time between the snaps. There is a slight difference in the time between the snaps. I don't think the same cyl is the source of the sound. The plugs and gap is close enough as is. Clean the coil 'tower' and where the wires connect to the coil. There May be a 'carbon track' allowing the spark to jump to ground. I wonder if the accelerator pump is set correctly? The ethanol in the fuel can cause the rubber components in the fuel system to fail in a couple years. Check the fuel pressure at the carb inlet and verify the fuel level in the fuel bowl is 'just below' the bottom of the sight hole on the passenger side when the truck is sitting level and the motor is running. Fuel should not run out of the sight hole.
When you eventually go to the larger 350 cfm carb, you will realise a world of difference in how the truck performs at your elevation.
 
Today I decided to check the carb closer to try and eliminate the backfire. Checked the fuel level - right on. Checked the pump arm clearance - right on. Checked the pump shot - present, but not so strong as I remember. See the photo for what the accelerator pump looked like. A new pump, strong shot, no more backfire, time for a test drive.
Drove maybe a mile and it seemed to be a little weak on power, was thinking of advancing the timing back to 15 btdc. Life was good.
Then the knock came back. Limped it back home with low power and a lot of noise. Tried pulling spark plug wires while it was banging away. Pulled #7 wire and the noise stopped. Looked in the oil filler hole and the dang exhaust valve is just sitting there. video here.

The rod is not tight against the rocker. This is new territory for me. Is this a valve/valve guide problem, or a collapsed lifter? Doesn't appear to be a lot of oil. What are my options here? I have a valve spring compressor and a lifter removal tool. Am I going to have to pull the heads? Should I try some seafoam?
 

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Are you saying the rocker May be sticking on the shaft and not allowing the valve to move? Check the valve spring for being weak or broken. Is the pushrod moving against the rocker? If you push down = in, on the rocker, does the rocker move from the cam pushing up on the rod? Your description indicates the engine does run on all 8 cyls until the engine gets hot. Can you repeat the test with the valve cover off to see if the valve is moving while the motor is still cool?
The old accelerator pump diaphragm looks like the part for the 50cc pump instead of the 30cc pump. Is the internal return spring installed? For the 275 cfm and 350 cfm 2300 carb, the 30cc pump is the correct size. The 50cc pump requires a larger pump housing.
 
I am confident that the valve was working when I did the spin up with the drill. There was also a ton of oil flowing through the rocker shaft. The push rod wasn’t bent when I had the valve train off, and this is the same knock as before I took it apart. I had checked all the valve springs for breakage, and this one is intact for sure. Not sure if it’s weak, or how to test.
I spun the motor with the starter just now and the valve is not moving, but the push rod/rocker is. Valve must be stuck open. Later I’ll put the valve cover on and run the motor until the oil warms up, then take the cover off and observe.
“the old accelerator pump diaphragm looks like the part for the 50cc pump instead of the 30cc pump.”
Hmmm? :icon_eh: I guess that’s possible. Been in there for almost two years, believe it came with the Holley #37-1343 kit, but I could be mis-remembering. I just ordered a new kit and a 4.5 power valve.
 
Stuffing a rope in the spark plug hole will work in an engine that has the valves inline with the piston. On a IH mill with canted valves, you'll more than likely end up with a bent valve stem or worse.
 
Don't know I haven't tried it. The Ford the gentleman is working on has canted valves. I think setting a cylinder at tdc, stuffing a rope inside the combustion chamber, removing the valve spring at said cylinder using a valve compressor to remove the valve keepers, I think the rope would keep the valve from falling into the cylinder, say if you were replacing valve seals.
 
today I decided to check the carb closer to try and eliminate the backfire. Checked the fuel level - right on. Checked the pump arm clearance - right on. Checked the pump shot - present, but not so strong as I remember. See the photo for what the accelerator pump looked like. A new pump, strong shot, no more backfire, time for a test drive.
Drove maybe a mile and it seemed to be a little weak on power, was thinking of advancing the timing back to 15 btdc. Life was good.
Then the knock came back. Limped it back home with low power and a lot of noise. Tried pulling spark plug wires while it was banging away. Pulled #7 wire and the noise stopped. Looked in the oil filler hole and the dang exhaust valve is just sitting there. video here.

The rod is not tight against the rocker. This is new territory for me. Is this a valve/valve guide problem, or a collapsed lifter? Doesn't appear to be a lot of oil. What are my options here? I have a valve spring compressor and a lifter removal tool. Am I going to have to pull the heads? Should I try some seafoam?

If the rod is not tight against the rocker, peek down inside and see if the push tube is against the lifter. The push tube May be bent. Remove the rockershaft, and tap the valve in question and see if it moves, using a soft mallet. Remove the push tube and roll it on a flat surface and make sure it is flat. If possible remove the lifter from the cylinder in question and inspect it for problems.
 
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I agree, to hold a valve in position the rope trick will work well. Air is easier and less risky though. But to unstick a valve that is stuck open is another kettle of fish.


don't know I haven't tried it. The Ford the gentleman is working on has canted valves. I think setting a cylinder at tdc, stuffing a rope inside the combustion chamber, removing the valve spring at said cylinder using a valve compressor to remove the valve keepers, I think the rope would keep the valve from falling into the cylinder, say if you were replacing valve seals.
 
Really don't need the rope. Piston at tdc and the valve can only drop about 1/2". Actually good to be able to move it up and down while working it loose.. Air will help while replacing the keepers.
 
Just to be clear, the rocker and the pushrod both move when the engine is rotated. The valve does not.
I did a compression test on the #7 cylinder and found that it held 115#. So the valve must be closed!
Loosened the stand bolts enough to remove the pushrod. Perfectly straight.
Tried my new removal tool, but you have to hold the collet with a wrench to expand it. Maybe a crows foot wrench would work, but what a pita. Tried a magnet and "Bob's your uncle" the lifter came out of its bore, but then it dropped. After a few hectic minutes I was able to fish it out using a flexible flashlight in the adjacent pushrod bore, a retrieval tool and a magnet. I thought I had lost it into the bowels of the engine.
Attached is a pic of the lifter. It was pretty much clean - just wiped it off. If the bottom is supposed to be flat it doesn't look good. It's dished about .016.
 

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Give the lifter plunger a push while on the bench before allowing oil to drain out of it. Betting it compresses some distance with hand force..

I suspect it has some debris in the internal valving prevensing it from getting a solid pump up.. You can disassemble the lifter and clean it all up. Pay close attention to the disk or ball valve by the top of the spring and make sure it is clean.. Stick it back together submerge it in a cup of oul and depress the plunger fully until it pumps up. Reinstall/reassemble and see how it runs.

If it still won't pump up I suspect cam bearings..
 
So the dishing is ok?
Somewhere on this site I read a thread that detailed lifter tear down, but I can't find it. I have read every post I could find on valve train issues.
I'll see if I can get it apart.
Thanks.
 
The lifter didn't want to collapse on the bench.
Got the lifter apart. I was trying to be careful but the spring clip still got away from me. Fortunately it stayed on the bench after hitting the bill of my cap.
Is there a need to disassemble the check ball/spring?
I have posted a pic of the parts. Shouldn't there be some sort of o-ring? Want to make sure before I put it back in the engine.
 

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