152 ???'s

[71mtnscout]

Ok, so I'm gunna change the oil in the goat today. Run it for 15 min to get alittle heat in her and pull the plug and drain the oil (really black). Now I go on to the canister filter, pull the plug and drain it and then pull the canister off.

1st question......this thing had an IH filter in it! Can you even get those anymore?

Had a napa gold filter that came with it, so I put that one on, cause the wix filter that my wife got was about 1/2 the size that it should be. That canister is the biggest pita to get back on!!

2nd question........will a spin-off unit off a late model bolt on the 152?

Put in 20-50 valvoline and a zinc additive, had the oil. Will get the right oil for next change.......the additive is $$$$.

 

[DF Sales&Marketing]

Glad to hear that you are mindful of using the right oil.....

Please re-post your question in the "basic tech" section for feedback from people who have had the same scenario, or who can give you some advice about the filter change over. The oil tech section refers only to lubrication.

 

[Michael Mayben]

I'll move this thread to engine tech since it's an engine question rather than directly related to lubricants.

Yes those filter cartridges were available through an IH/navistar dealership but would be a nos item depending upon the labeling stamped into it. Dealers bought filtration parts in huge quantity (case lots) since they are truck dealers.

Ihc as we know it ceased to exist circa 1984 with the bankruptcy, but the dealerships and parts distribution network have continued to this day. The navistar brand is normally associated with parts labeling but in various ways depending upon a lotta partnerships and trade agreements/contracts.

My personal opinion is that any cartridge filtration system is superior to any "spin-on" setup. Spin-ons were developed as a convenience factor (and that certainly is not always the case).

Yes, the spin-on filter adapter will mount right to your block, but there are many variations of those as far as how the filter header is oriented,...straight up and down, at an angle, etc., all dependent upon the platform any engine is installed in.

And, the earliest adapters use three holes to mount instead of four, and some applications use a spacer/"adapter" between the filter header and the block which involves a separate and extra gasket.

The stroker 152 I'm building will use a cartridge-style oil filter unit, not a spin-on. The biggest issue with these is that unknowing diy'rs loose the spring and washer inside the canister when discarding the cartridge at change-out without knowing it. I have no idea where to find one of those springs, though I have used a spring out of a tf727 tranny that has been modified in an emergency. There are many of the 152 motors out there with no retaining spring inside the filter canister, that means no filtration is taking place.

 

[71mtnscout]

The spring was there, but there was no washer. Where does the washer go and what size is it? I tried to find a diagram or blow-up in my service manual, but theres not one.

 

[Michael Mayben]

The washer goes under the head of the center bolt. It's normally a semi-hard copper, sometimes it's been done with a fiber washer, sometimes soft aluminum.

Make sure only one ring gasket seals the canister body to the header, that gasket gets changed along with the filter cartridge.

Here's the parts list for one version as used on s80 with 152.

 

[71mtnscout]

Thanks michael..........I thought that there should be a sealing washer/o-ring at that point, I drove the goat to work today to "test" her out. I dont have a leak or drip at that point, but will put it on my list for next oil change, to get a copper washer.

By the way, the "rebuilt" 1904 is crap, and that will have to be fixed next. I have some knocking down low in the block at low rpm and under mild load that I believe to be piston slap. The lifters all pump up on startup and the rockers are "semi" quite as compared to when I got it. I'm gunna run this 152 till I can find a replacement, or rebuild one. I have alot of 152's that I can pick up...................funny last time I had an 80 and I siezed the 152 up tight, I couldnt find one.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Piston slap is fairly common on the 152 and 196. I have a 196 with severe piston rattle up to the point it's run about 45 minutes (full temp), then the noise is almost eliminated. That is due to the fact that the offending piston (in my case #1) expands slightly in the skirt area reducing the excessive skirt clearance due to piston collapse.

Why this is more prevalent on the fourbangers is always beerthirty talk. But I have discussed this with a few very knowledgeable folks (one of who worked for an ihc factory branch, the other the last remaining light line dealership mechanic) and we all agree as to root cause.

That said, they can run for tens of thousands of miles with this condition, the only downside being they sound like a diesel.

 

[71mtnscout]

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That said, they can run for tens of thousands of miles with this condition, the only downside being they sound like a diesel.

Yup!! Thats exactly what it sounds like. I guess I havent run the goat long enough to get the pistons to quiet down. Maybe I'll just run her till she drops and take my time rebuilding a complete drivetrain for it. Has that "problem" been eliminated with the newer pistons that are now available for these engines?

As I "feared" my wife has claimed the goat as hers! I have never seen her excited about any vehicle that I brought home, so I gave it to her. She has spent hours reading through the service manual, learning about her new toy, and wants to participate in all aspects of maint and repair. So I have procured another suitable 80 for my plans. This one is a 62 p/u and hasnt run in over 3 years, but I was told that it was surprisingly quiet when he got her running last.

 

[Michael Mayben]

yup!! Thats exactly what it sounds like. I guess I havent run the goat long enough to get the pistons to quiet down. Maybe I'll just run her till she drops and take my time rebuilding a complete drivetrain for it. Has that "problem" been eliminated with the newer pistons that are now available for these engines?

As I "feared" my wife has claimed the goat as hers! I have never seen her excited about any vehicle that I brought home, so I gave it to her. She has spent hours reading through the service manual, learning about her new toy, and wants to participate in all aspects of maint and repair. So I have procured another suitable 80 for my plans. This one is a 62 p/u and hasnt run in over 3 years, but I was told that it was surprisingly quiet when he got her running last.

We need to get your wife playing with us here on her own "reader's rides" thread! The s80 we have is actually supposed to be my wife's, though the long term nature (due to "toy's" budget) has kinda put the kabosh on her interests.

We have beerthirtied that the oem pistons used in the 152/196 were affected by rod angularity and the firing order/crank throw layout of the four-banger as opposed to the sv engines. The exact same pistons were used in 266 and some 304 where piston slap is not a major issue, though occasionally we do run across that on engines that haven't run this century when finally brought to life. It's possible that differnt primary vendors for the actual pistons differed over time for the fourbangers also, we don't have access to supplier codes for that stuff, though I have been told by someone who knew the vendor codes varied that was the case. The supply cahin for any automotive production system can be very convoluted and complicated, I assure you, ihc did not cast the oem pistons though. And who ever did, the various supplier sources have all played musical chairs with buy-outs, dis-solutions, bankruptcies, takeovers so that it no longer matters, all the players on the s80 platform are gone! And the 152 motor existed way before the platform did, it was used in many ihc-produced ag products.

But the only way to determine if piston skirt clearance is root cause is to measure the piston(s) and cylinders to determine if it does exist and is not simply wear from prolonged use. One piston with excessive clearance is piston slap/rattle. All cylinders with wear is a plain old overhaul issue.

Piston slap is certainly not a dealbreaker, though it's irritating! Don't let this get in the way of having fun with this rig, yawl have much other work to do while still driving it as needed!

On the other hand...non-oiling rocker assembly is a dealbreaker which will leave ya stranded when ya least are expecting it. But know you have verified that issue and know it's not a problem as least at this point in time.

Here's a link to another chick-version s80, linda wiese's little red wagon which has been a long-term project nering the finish line now:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/I-h-s-t-o/1552-weises-little-red-wagon.html

I had previously ragged on lyle about not working on that one, now he rags on me for not working on ours!

 

[Robert Kenney]

One thing I have recognized on 4 poppers is that they run dam near 100% duty cycle when a 8v typicaly runs 75% or less due to the under powered nature of the trucks they are installed in.

My 152 had .020 piston to cylinder clearance and .125 piston ring gap before it got a oh and it did not rattle one bit nor did it burn oil that I could see. Did have blow by and a flat cam lobe but ran great down the road.

I suspect the real issue comes from overheating and collapsing a skirt allowing a very large rocking moment.

 

[brained]

I don't want to hijack to far here but what is the piston skirt for?
I saw some pistons from a european race car and there was just enough meat underneath for the rod to hook into - obviously done to lower rotating mass and such. After that though I've been wondering why a skirt is used at all?

 

[Robert Kenney]

I personally luv short skirts.

now on a piston there are 2 primary functions of a skirt.

1) aid in stabilizing the rocking motion of the piston.
2) support the side loading the piston undergoes due to the rod angle and combustion loads. Basically larger skirts have larger bearing area and allow more miles out of an engine.

Racing pistons are a special bread and depending on stroke and deck height the skirt needs to be shortened so it clears the crankshaft counterweights at bottom dead center.

Yes the overall piston height can aid in reducing recip. Mass and increase an engines efficiency and fuel economy. If a high quality forged aluminum is used the piston will live for a long time given a reasonable skirt below the wrist pin.

The heavy cast piston in IH engines are greatly responsible for their poor fuel economy and low hp/liter. Yes there are other factors for low hp/liter but the energy required to accelerate and decelerate a very heavy piston 4000 times/minute is substantial. The 152 stroker project will reduce the recip masses by over 50% and end up at 194 inches. It will out perform any IH built 196 hands down and last as long.

 

[71mtnscout]

Ruthie isnt into the forum/computer thing, she leaves that to me, but I will update with pics and progress on the goat.

The "goat" or "billy" is what she has named it, because there is an etched billy goat on the drivers wing window from a po. She likes it, so that her name. I call it her, she calls it him.

Work on the goat is gunna stop for a bit till I get the 62 home, and I need to clean out some leftover parts trucks out of the backyard. I'm also into early GM flatface vans and have to cut my parts van up for scrap since most everything has been stripped or sold off of it and its just taking up space. I also have to loose the body on the 71 sii since that will be the "base" for the 62 thats coming. It will be a trial rig and will probably never be "pretty". I really need to win lotto so that I have the time and $$$ to build all the things that are in my head.