I was going through the pre oil procedure while I have the engine on the stand and I ran into a couple of issues. First the passenger side is not getting oil second I noticed what appears as a crack down the rocker stand (driver side). I now I will have to replaced any cracked stands but any tips on the passenger side oiling problem. I have printed and studied the procedure I found on this site and followed it to the letter. The oil pressure was reading a steady 15 psi during the entire time. Just some history on the engine: I had it rebuilt a few years ago and had it running good for about <2000 miles, then while riding on the highway it started knocking real bad. Took it apart and found the #2 cylinder wall scored badly along with a ruined piston I believe the cam bearings were damaged also. So now, after the machine shop did its thing, im trying to get it back in the Scout. I know the first time I ran it I did the pre oil but did not have these instuctions to follow and I also ran regular oil in it not knowing any better. Currently I am using the proper cj4 oil. Any help would be nice.
No oil to passenger rockers
- Thread starter jmr71
- Start date
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
You will need to rotate the engine by hand slowly. The holes that supply the rocker assemblies oil are from the cam bearings only do so for part of the cam's arc of rotation. I always rotate the crank about 25 degrees then continue priming and repeat untill all points are well oiled.
Did you assemble the engine? If so did you happen to verify cam bearing/block oil hole location? Some times the machine shop will get a cam bearing installed 180 out and the rocker passage will be blocked.
as for what appears to be a crack in the rocker stand,that location is usualy a casting Mark. The cracks that I have seen are from over tightening and usually under the bolt/washer.
Did you assemble the engine? If so did you happen to verify cam bearing/block oil hole location? Some times the machine shop will get a cam bearing installed 180 out and the rocker passage will be blocked.
as for what appears to be a crack in the rocker stand,that location is usualy a casting Mark. The cracks that I have seen are from over tightening and usually under the bolt/washer.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
When ya say the oil pressure was 15psi the whole time, I assume you mean that you were observing the "non-oiling" situation while the engine was running with an oil pressure gauge installed in the oil gallery where the oil pressure sending unit mounts?? Or were you running the oil pump from a drill motor??
Follow Robert's advice for very slowly rotating the crankshaft by hand in small increments until the spit hole in the #4 cam journal aligns with the hole in the cam bearing and block. Finding the "sweet spot" is extremely tedious.
And what you see on that end rocker stand is casting flash at the mold parting line for the stand. If there is an "oiler" stand installed in that position...yes, a leak would appear if that is actually a crack. If that stand is not an oiler, then no oil would appear even if cracked! That stand cannot "crack" at that position if it's a non-oiler stand, it's nearly 1/2" wall thickness at the point.
I'd remove the rocker assembly and verify oil flow at the feed port on the head as outlined in the procedures I've posted. If there is oil to that port at 15psi, but no oil emerges from the rocker interfaces on the shaft, then the rocker shaft is grunged or you have the wrong rocker stand in the "oiler" position.
We also need to know "which" rocker assembly/system you are using...nine stand?...five stand?...welded rockers?...boat rockers?...?
And since you have mentioned only the passenger side is not oiling properly...does that mean the driver side is ok??? Has that been verified visually? The driver side oils off the #2 cam bearing/journal, the passenger side oils of the #4 bearing/journal.
While "type" of all selection is critical for longterm engine life, that is not an issue for verifying oil flow here, neither is viscosity. This is a diagnostic/verification process and in doing so, expect to waste some oil!
Follow Robert's advice for very slowly rotating the crankshaft by hand in small increments until the spit hole in the #4 cam journal aligns with the hole in the cam bearing and block. Finding the "sweet spot" is extremely tedious.
And what you see on that end rocker stand is casting flash at the mold parting line for the stand. If there is an "oiler" stand installed in that position...yes, a leak would appear if that is actually a crack. If that stand is not an oiler, then no oil would appear even if cracked! That stand cannot "crack" at that position if it's a non-oiler stand, it's nearly 1/2" wall thickness at the point.
I'd remove the rocker assembly and verify oil flow at the feed port on the head as outlined in the procedures I've posted. If there is oil to that port at 15psi, but no oil emerges from the rocker interfaces on the shaft, then the rocker shaft is grunged or you have the wrong rocker stand in the "oiler" position.
We also need to know "which" rocker assembly/system you are using...nine stand?...five stand?...welded rockers?...boat rockers?...?
And since you have mentioned only the passenger side is not oiling properly...does that mean the driver side is ok??? Has that been verified visually? The driver side oils off the #2 cam bearing/journal, the passenger side oils of the #4 bearing/journal.
While "type" of all selection is critical for longterm engine life, that is not an issue for verifying oil flow here, neither is viscosity. This is a diagnostic/verification process and in doing so, expect to waste some oil!
I removed the passenger rocker stand and no oil is coming up through the supply. My rocker arms are assembled correctly and yes I'm running a drill to prime the engine. I looked inside the supply hole and can see that there is a blockage. Is it possible for the block and head to be misalinged? I stuck a rod down inside the supply hole and it hits a solid surface.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
The spit hole in the head does not align directly with the mating passage in the block. If you had the camshaft out of the engine, and tried to probe that passage with a thin wire, you would not be able to push it through into the feed hole in the cam bearing and bearing saddle.
The head gasket has an oval relief in it to seal that area between the block and the head...and the passage on the block side of the head also has an oval-shaped transition "well" to provide for oil flow.
No matter how carefully an engine assembler May be when installing cam bearings, it's always possible that the hole in the bearing is not properly aligned with the hole in the bearing saddle. When I install cam bearings in these blocks, I run an extra-length drill bit from the deck of the block through the cam bearing hole in order to "clean up" any mismatch that might occur. Then a small handpiece with a carbide burr is used to chamfer the oil hole in the bearing to remove any possible burr.
Cleaning the oil passages on either side of an sv block is imperative when it'd down for overhaul. And of course, removing all oil gallery plugs and sterilizing is also part of that process. An example of that is contained in this thread:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/gas-engine-tech/1143-sonjamotor-lives.html
The oil galleries/passages in that block were all full of crap resulting from the cleaning process. All oil holes have now been cleared with the drill bits. The cam bearings will be installed and then alignment verified middle of next week, that process will be well documented in that thread.
If no oil is moving topside, then either the camshaft is not aligned properly, or there is a blockage/mis-positioning in the cam bearing/saddle, camshaft, etc. The camshaft will allow oil transfer when it's parked at only two distinct spots, and those spots are not 180* across from each other . The lube orfice is cross-drilled through the journal in an offset manner. Rotate the camshaft about 5* at a time while watching for oil to emerge from the hole.
This pic shows a sample head gasket in place, with a drill bit used for cleaning purposes inserted into the feed hole for the passenger side rocker assembly. This is not the gasket that will be installed in this engine build, this is a "template" gasket I use for checking multiple points during block prep.
The head gasket has an oval relief in it to seal that area between the block and the head...and the passage on the block side of the head also has an oval-shaped transition "well" to provide for oil flow.
No matter how carefully an engine assembler May be when installing cam bearings, it's always possible that the hole in the bearing is not properly aligned with the hole in the bearing saddle. When I install cam bearings in these blocks, I run an extra-length drill bit from the deck of the block through the cam bearing hole in order to "clean up" any mismatch that might occur. Then a small handpiece with a carbide burr is used to chamfer the oil hole in the bearing to remove any possible burr.
Cleaning the oil passages on either side of an sv block is imperative when it'd down for overhaul. And of course, removing all oil gallery plugs and sterilizing is also part of that process. An example of that is contained in this thread:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/gas-engine-tech/1143-sonjamotor-lives.html
The oil galleries/passages in that block were all full of crap resulting from the cleaning process. All oil holes have now been cleared with the drill bits. The cam bearings will be installed and then alignment verified middle of next week, that process will be well documented in that thread.
If no oil is moving topside, then either the camshaft is not aligned properly, or there is a blockage/mis-positioning in the cam bearing/saddle, camshaft, etc. The camshaft will allow oil transfer when it's parked at only two distinct spots, and those spots are not 180* across from each other . The lube orfice is cross-drilled through the journal in an offset manner. Rotate the camshaft about 5* at a time while watching for oil to emerge from the hole.
This pic shows a sample head gasket in place, with a drill bit used for cleaning purposes inserted into the feed hole for the passenger side rocker assembly. This is not the gasket that will be installed in this engine build, this is a "template" gasket I use for checking multiple points during block prep.
Attachments
Last edited:
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Eric VanBuren
Member
If the head gasket was installed improperly it could block off the oil passage to the rockers.
If you look at the pic micheal posted in post #5 you'll notice that there is only 1 oil passage per gasket. You'll also notice that there is a protrusion in the gasket to match the oil passage in the block and head. With the intake and valley pan off you should be able to see if the protrusion is in the wrong place. If that protrusion is clearly visible hanging out there in the wind it is on backwards.
That gasket it for an "ic" engine the non ic gaskets have large coolant holes where the small steam holes are at along the top of the ic gasket so if your oil level is going down you May be pumping the oil into the cooling system. You can see the impression of the head gaskets coolant passage holes in the pic of the head in post #6.
Many engines use head gaskets that have a "front" stamped on them which must go to the front of the engine, but the sv is not one of those engines. They should have an "up" stamped on them to help those that are only used to dealing with "common" engines but they don't.
If you look at the pic micheal posted in post #5 you'll notice that there is only 1 oil passage per gasket. You'll also notice that there is a protrusion in the gasket to match the oil passage in the block and head. With the intake and valley pan off you should be able to see if the protrusion is in the wrong place. If that protrusion is clearly visible hanging out there in the wind it is on backwards.
That gasket it for an "ic" engine the non ic gaskets have large coolant holes where the small steam holes are at along the top of the ic gasket so if your oil level is going down you May be pumping the oil into the cooling system. You can see the impression of the head gaskets coolant passage holes in the pic of the head in post #6.
Many engines use head gaskets that have a "front" stamped on them which must go to the front of the engine, but the sv is not one of those engines. They should have an "up" stamped on them to help those that are only used to dealing with "common" engines but they don't.
Thanks for all the info guys. I'm gonna start by rotating camshaft again. Then I'll move on to possible incorrect installation of the head gasket. I don't think it's is any of the first two but I want to rule them out completely. I will probably check for oil passage blockage in the block next and finally check for proper cam bearing installation. If it turns out to be the cam bearing I hope I can adjust it myself. One question before I begin- will my headgasket be ok to reuse if I remove the head?
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
I would not recommend reusing them. They crush and take a set when torqued. The machine marks on the deck and head surfaces also imprint them selfs into the gaskets so they will not likely seal correctly again.
Eureka! Apparently I was not spinning the camshaft slow enough. This time I took my time and looked for the "sweet spot". One step closer to getting my Scout back on the road. I will probably use this thread for futher issues or any updates. Gentlmen, once again thanks for your help and insight.
Can someone explain the reason why the intake gasket covers the water passage ports on the intake and head? It appears that the previous gasket covered the exact port also. These ports are located directly in the center of the intake. Just as a reminder my engine is a 304a w/ 2brl carb.
Attachments
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
The one in your photo clearly says 152/266/304 so you have the correct gasket.
The center port is an exhaust crossover. It is used on some applications to aid getting heat to the intake manifold and of choke stove for better cold running. It is commonly blocked and perfered when running an electric choke.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
That is an "lpg" intake gasket shown in your comparison pic. That one was designed for, and is used on engines equipped with dual fuel or propane only systems. That blocks the exhaust heat crossover as Robert advised. It is also used on the all 152 engines (one gasket only), except the very earliest ones that had a functional exhaust heat passage cast into the intake manifold. That design feature was eliminated after the first year or so of production on those engines.
I also use those on performance engine builds, especially with the rpt aluminum intake manifold installation.
If that lpg gasket is the only type ya might have available inna time of need, and you desire a functional exhaust-heated intake manifold (such as oem), then that block section in the gasket (each side) can be cut out carefully. In order to take full advantage of the heated intake system, you must also have a functional heat riser valve between the exhaust manifold and head pipe.
