oil for transmission, transfer case, and axles

kjc-01

kjc-01

Member
What are the proper 'current' oils for a '70 1200d transmission, transfer case, and differentials? I refuse to believe this hasn't already been addressed here, but searching has yielded nothing useful (except a reference to michael recommending 50 weight engine oil for the transfer case). Per the user manual and service manual, a 1200d should be running the following oils:

t-419 transmission: 7 pints straight mineral oil sae-90
tc-141 transfer case: 6-1/2 pints straight mineral oil sae-90
fa-15 front differential: 4-1/2 pints sp type lubricant, sae-90 per mil-l-2105b (no zinc)
ra-16 rear differential: 5-1/2 pints sp type lubricant, sae-90 per mil-l-2105b (no zinc)

what can I pick up at the local napa to meet these requirements? Is 'straight mineral oil sae-90' gear oil or engine oil? What is sp, maybe standard pressure instead of extreme pressure? No one seems to carry it as described per the manual.

I am ready to just put some 75w90 api gl-5 gear oil in the diffs and some 50 weight engine oil in the tranny and transfer case unless I can find some better info here.
 
The straight mineral oil in question was recommended because of yellow metal compatibility in those gearboxes. The recommendation was for either straight 90wt mineral gear oil, or straight 50 non-detergent engine oil. The viscosity of both of those oils are the same. They do not contain ep (extreme pressure) additives.

The mil 2105 gear oil spec is the same as a "gl-5" gear oil.

To simplify your needs, you can use swepco 210-80w140 gear oil in all of the applications you mentioned, it is a true "multi-weight" gear oil and will meet all the specs called for in oils from 80w90, 90, 85w140, and 140, and is much more energy efficient than the straight 90 which is called for.

The "type sp" you mention is not recognizable, looking in the check chart "sp" is designated to be a speedometer cable lubricant. A later version of automatic transmission oil for Ford pickups is "sp" but that has since been discontinued and is replaced by "lv" - don't use either of those because it is not close to a gear oil specification. I only mentioned it to clarify sp for you.

IHPA uses and stocks the swepco 210-80w140 gear oil, you can purchase it from them by the gallon, but you won't won't find it at a napa store. The 210 formulation does not contain an aggressive sulfur compound and is compatible with yellow metals, not too many other brands have that capability, so my advice is not to go to napa and get a gl 5 gear oil for use in all of those boxes.
 
Hi,
in the past (when dinosaurs roamed) I was always taught that a rear differential in a truck, such as a 1 ton truck, for example, should only use an extreme pressure rated oil, such as a 160wt ep, due to the sliding action of the teeth of a hypoid spiral bevel gears differential. And that oil would last 100k miles, unless some type of positraction was used, then its a whole different story.

And I was taught that a manual truck transmission should never use an ep oil, but only a 85 or 90 wt gear oil. How can one oil meet both requirements better than two purpose-designed oils?

I recall hearing a story once where someone put an ep oil in their transmission, believing that if it held up to the high pressure in a differential, it would last forever in a transmission. Perhaps it would last forever, but the transmission was extremely difficult, if not impossible to shift, as the oil never allowed enough friction to allow the syncroes to engage.

Thanks.

Steve

p.s. I also read somewhere that people are now using a full synthetic oil (I forget the brand name) in their rockwell axles as they run considerably cooler.
 
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Also, just for comment, back in high school we used to flip the diff covers of our 3/4 and 1 ton GM corporate axles (nobody in los angeles knew of IH) which allowed the addition of several more pints of oil. I know the book says not to over-fill as the churning oil would not lubricate as well, over heat, and come out the vent. But in reality, I never knew that to happen to anyone. And I can't think of anyone who flipped their diff covers to ever have a rear axle failure, at least not oil-related. I drove my truck cross-country several times, from l.a. To ohio, michigan and canada and never had an issue. It seems as though fillers are located only high enough to provide "adequate" lubrication.

I know I've read some problems with sv IH engines are fixed by over-filling a quart, and I know I've read the same for some t35 type transmissions. I just wonder if the same can be said of IH axles. Do they last 250k without incidents? My only previous experience has been with GM corporate axles in back and Dana 70's in front, and that combination would last forever. I would only go through them once when I first get them, then never a bearing or gear failure after that, ever.
 
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Hello again steve,

your facts and figures are slightly off...the past differential application would not have called for a 160wt ep gear oil, there is no such thing, you probably meant 140wt, or what some used at that time, an 85w140, which is actually a 140 wt with a slug of pour point depressant to get it to meet an 85wt when cold. That is typically an unknown fact by many, even well-versed mechanics. The 140wt at 210 deg can also be met by an 80w140 (such as swepco 210 80w140 gear oil), which also meets the requirements from 80wt, 90wt, 85w140 and straight 140wt. It is more energy efficient than all of those mentioned. It also meets gl-5, and is compatible to use in gearboxes calling for gl-4 gear oils.

The 50wt non detergent engine oil and 90wt mineral oil are basically one and the same, they do not have ep additives and were called for because of the yellow metal compatibility issue. That was the recommendation in the older manual transmissions, not for differentials. However, as mentioned previously it depends on the chemistry of the products because mixing an aggressive sulfur compound in a gl-5 oil with mineral oil in a transmission could conceivably cause the oil to thicken, and even to the point of having the characteristics of being asphaltic - hence the reason why the transmission you mentioned was hard to shift.

The average Joe out there will not know which gl-5 oils can be substituted for the 50wt non detergent engine oil or the 90wt mineral oil, so unless one is not sure, he should continue using what was called for in the original specs. So, you might ask, “why change and go against the spec?” simple, 1) 50 wt non detergent engine oil and 90wt mineral oil is very hard to find. 2) you will get a lot more protection, and cooler operation than the originally called-for products. 3) for convenience sake, one oil meets all of those application requirements. It is for those reasons that I can confidently recommend one product to fit all of those needs: swepco 210 - 80w140 gear oil, it has proven itself in those applications for decades.

Note: when you are planning to change over to a different gear oil, it is recommended that you warm up the unit to operating temperature, then “pull the plugs.” some people actually let it sit overnight to make sure to get all of the old stuff out.

As far as differential cover plates are concerned, “flipping” the older ones as you did probably did increase the capacity, and that is a good thing, but you don’t want to increase the capacity by overfilling, that’s a bad thing which creates more heat, churning, possibly aeration, and foaming out of the vent....it can be messy as hell and stink to high heaven as well. Aeration and foaming causes boundary lubrication, so if you had no problems, more than likely it was probably because you did not overfill the punkins to the point where that would occur.

There are several manufacturers who have made aftermarket larger capacity diff covers, and they have the drain plug hole as well as the check level hole at the proper heights. Many of them are aluminum and are “finned” for better cooling. You can check with IHPA for their recommendation on same if you wish to increase your capacity.
 
To the original poster kjc-01: in summation, a 90wt or 140wt (depending on load and temperture) ep hypoid rated gear oil is for the axles. A non-ep oil such as a gl-1 90wt gear oil or an engine sae 50wt oil is used in manual transmissions and transfer cases.

As the moderator has said, the swepco product covers all applications so you can reduce your inventory to one oil. Additives can be active or non-active in their chemistry on how they accomplish meeting the gear and manufacturer's specification for protection and gear life. Using non-active type additives is more costly, but then again one oil can cover more types of uses. Being that some of swepco's customers are otr trucks with axles pushing 80k or more lbs, I'm sure it will stand up to our smaller demands.

Never overfill. Aeration, foaming, and heat degrade the oil and do not allow it to physically lubricate as well. The gears depend on splash lubrication, not immersion. There's more to failure than just obvious to the untrained eye metal fatigue. Blown seals, weepage at the axle ends and pinion, "wet" brakes are also symptoms, and a few testiments of "ididit" doesn't speak for the whole market.

Could a picture of "sp" type oil that is spec'd be posted? I've never seen that myself. There was a scl or hypoid, but I haven't run across sp yet.
 
Hi,

I guess what was throwing me is that your web site states your 210 has ep additives, which I was always told should never be used in a manual transmission. So the 210 is used in both the differentials of big trucks and their 10 speed manual road ranger transmissions?
Also can you better explain the application differences between your 201, 203, 210, and 212 multi-weight gear oils?

And another half-baked lube question - hope you don't mind. On an unrelated note, although I have not researched this enough to ask intelligently, and have not yet disassembled my little Dana 44 axle to see first-hand if my statements below are true, but I think they are, what lubricant do you recommend we use for inside the closed steering knuckle?

My preliminary research indicates it should be a semi-fluid form #0 grease with "adhesion" properties. (a regular oil will seep out everywhere). And it originally went by the similar names of short fiber grease; sodium based grease; or soda soap grease, all referring to the same type grease by different vehicle manufacturers. But, from my understanding, two problems are encountered - first, this grease is no longer available, although something similar but non-compatible is available called corn head grease. And secondly, the unique aspect of this axle is that the wheel bearings are also lubed by this #0 grease. And since the lube is designed to flow thru the spindle bushing, it must be 100% compatible with the wheel bearing grease used.
So what grease should be used to pre-pack the wheel bearings and is 100% compatible with what #0 steering knuckle grease?

Thanks.

Steve

p.s. Flipping the cover just moved the fill hole from a little below to a little above the center-line of the axle assembly.
 
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I used a belray product but any nlgi#0-00 will meet the semi fluidic requirments in the closed knuckle Dana..
I will need more for the Dana 44 hd (big ball) axle in the 1200c and did some research. Shaffer, amsoil, valvoline and mobil. All make semi fluid ep grease products that are perfect for this application. Most are mining and industrial applications. Penrite has a product that is for old cars and motorcycles..

#0,00 and 000 with 000 being the highest pumpability..
Whatever you choose to go with in the knuckle it would be wise to choose a like base formulation for the wheel bearings... That will prevent any problems.

Might see if Jeff can get swepco 723. Semi fluid wire rope grease.
 
Steve, here's a little experience of oil level. I was called to rebuild a nuclear reactor's primary coolant pump. Fancy name, but just a water pump with stainless construction and high end mechanical seals. It was rebuilt twice before in the space of 3 months by our facility senior mechanic. On my turn I had the shaft rebuilt and paid extra attention to assembly tolerances. On the previous rebuild the mechanic converted the bearing housing from grease lube to an oil bath. He put street ells in the lower lube vent ports and turned them straight up. This put the oil level high enough to immerse the lower bearing balls up to about the bearing's inner ring. The pump ran hot (non-nuclear) and the bearing temperatures approached 175-180 degrees. On my rebuild I lowered the oil level to about mid-line of the lowest ball. (from a picture I seen in an skf book). Besides pumping the rated flow of coolant, the pump ran cooler with bearing temperatures of around 125-130 degrees. That was 22 years ago and it is still fine. So yes, even small changes can make a profound difference when it comes to oil levels.

In the absence of 0 or 00 grease, you can mix 90wt gear oil with grease in the closed knuckles. Which I believe is better than shown in some 800 or 80 owner's manuals that shows to use chassis lube, the same as used on the tie rod ends.

I don't think wire rope lube would be wise for closed knuckles. While it says semi-fluid, I think that is more in comparison to open gear/rope lube that does get very stiff. The spec sheet shows that at 100*c the viscosity is up at 680 for rope lube while 0 or 00 grease is down at 5.5. Dick can answer better than I, but I believe 0 or 00 will allow lube to seep into the needle bearings of the knuckle's u-joints, and provide some lube to the joints even when cold like going through snow or winter conditions. It would still be stiff enough to prevent excess leakage.
 
Steve mentions swepco 201 gear oil, which I think he transposed the part numbers. We have been speaking of swepco 210 gear oil which is a true 80w140 multigraded gear oil and meets all of the specs previously mentioned. The swepco 201 product is made in 80w90, 90 and 140 weights, it would not be a good choice for transmissions and differentials unless you use the 80w90 (or the 90) in the transmissions and transfer case and the 140 in the differentials. And yes, steve, both have ep additives, and both are fine to use in gear boxes of any kind which have yellow metals, even in industrial uses which have backstops.

The difference in the swepco gear oils is as follows:

201 is a multi purpose gear oil suitable for most gear applications.
203 is the same oil with the addition of moly for more protection against heat and wear.
210 is a multi purpose, multi grade gear oil for more versatility and more protection than the 201
212 is the same as 210 with the addition of moly (just as the 203 is for the 201)

the 201 would be most popular in the automotive field, however it is not a “one product meets all” specs as the 210 would be. The sprint car racing customers I have use the 210 in their differentials with terrific results, often seeing as much as a 25 degree reduction in heat than the other high-performance brands, including synthetics.


As far as the wire rope lubricant, no, that would not work for steering knuckles, but swepco does produce #113 - 00 grade semi-fluid grease which will work, unfortunately the container size is not very handy as it comes in either a 6 gallon pail, or a 16 gallon keg. Semi-fluid grease is not packaged in standard grease tubes because it would seep out of the grease gun tube when it is not being used. I would suggest getting something else which is more conveniently packaged for the little you would use 6 gallons would last longer than the vehicle!
 
Hi,

and so is moly good or bad for gear boxes and differentials? So why would one not want to use an oil that contains moly? And what about wheel bearings? What is the absolute best wheel bearing grease available? Somewhere I thought I read that ep grease should also not be used for wheel bearings. Do I remember reading correctly, or does it not really matter? But I can't find that post now, so perhaps its my bad memory.

Here are a few other random quotes on wheel bearing grease I copied and pasted and would appreciate people's comments on, then another question at the bottom of the post:

“the best wheel bearing grease is aeroshell grease 14, a "short" grease and it stays in place. When you use that long threaded grease it works itself out the bearings. ... it is made with mineral base oil and a calcium soap thickener, which provides outstanding protection against moisture, corrosion and fretting . it has a useful temperature range of -65º f (-54' c) to +200º f (+93º c) . aeroshell grease 14 is qualified under mil-g-25537c specification."

"so don't use moly or any moly additive on any ball or roller bearing application . this includes transmissions also . the reason moly is not reccomended for ball bearings is because the moly can build up on the race surfaces and reduce the bearing clearances enough to cause bearing failure . some years back the model a Ford club reccomended a moly grease for the rear axle ball bearings . there was a rash of axle bearing failures traced to this moly build up on the races . it is in fact an irregular build up of the moly and forms patches on the races and it had the same effect as dirt in the bearing."

"valvoline synpower grease is the best there is for automotive applications."

"amsoil wheel bearing grease runs 20 - 30 degrees cooler..."

"I do this for a living and lucas red-n-tacky is all I ill use."

"kendall super blu ... better than the old red grease I used to use"

"#2 mystik jt-6 . it has the highest published dropout point of any wheel bearing lube (550 degrees)."

"compare jt-6 #2 properties with those of amsoil synthetic grease, you will see that the jt-6 is superior to the synthetic by most criteria . I can't find a grease with better published properties than gt-6, which is why I use it."

the more I read the more I become confused . has anyone ever done or published a technical specs comparison table on wheel bearing grease specs like I did with oil filters ? (page 2 of this post: http://forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ba...ense to me, thanks for sharing, greg . steve
 
Steve....aka questions, questions, questions;

moly gear oil
Moly gear oil can be used in gearboxes and differentials. Moly is attracted to the metal surface and forms a sacrificial coating to help protect surfaces during times of sudden impact, shock loading, start up and shut down cycles. The use of moly containing gear oils can extend the life of gear boxes and differentials when properly maintained. Pharmaceutical grade moly (which is what swepco uses) will not build up on itself - other moly of a cheaper grade May do so, but I don’t hear very much about that happening.

Moly gear oil is not recommended for systems that use ultra filtration or sets for more than 6 months. Moly will settle to the bottom when there is no agitation for a long period of time and depending on the configuration it May be difficult to re-disperse. So with the settling aspect of the moly, I generally stay away from recommending it for applications which are going to be dormant, and generally limit it to differentials rather than transmissions - it’s a matter of personal preference on that one.

steering knuckle lubricant
I checked with Chad at IHPA to get his take on what they use in steering knuckles and to get his opinion on why the lubricant steering knuckle lube would find its way into the wheel bearings. He tells me that they generally pack them with the moly 101 grease, and don’t mix it with gear oil. However the specs called for a semi-fluid grease, so with that being said, and as mentioned previously there are other products available in small quantities which would probably work. The smallest container of swepco 113-00 semi-fluid grease is a 6 gallon pail. If you wish to place an order for it, contact Chad at IHPA, since it is not an item which is stocked by them, it might take awhile to get it to you, the price would be $331.75 plus tax and shipping.

Chad also confirmed my thoughts that the lubricant used in the steering knuckles should never find its way into the wheel bearing, and if it does there is probably a bad seal somewhere. With that in mind, if a lube could get into the wheel bearing cavity, then so could water, dirt, etc. Why would IH design it in the way you describe if they knew it would be cross-contaminated? - that just doesn’t make sense.

wheel bearing lubricant
Astm d 4590 spells out the requirements for automotive greases including the gc/lb specification and there are extreme pressure requirements For this grease. Moly 101 meets the required application for both wheel bearings and chassis lube.

When you ask me to make a recommendation, of course I will always recommend swepco products, whether it is grease, gear oil, or any other product. I realize that other people have their favorites for whatever reason, but we, and IHPA are in business to supply what we feel is the best products for IH Scout owners. Some of the comments made on the previous post concerning wheel bearing grease are really off the wall and I would rather not go into a comparison or rebuttal on another opinion. We have the best, and thousands upon thousands of different as well as difficult applications have proved it over the years.
 
swepco said:
...the average Joe out there will not know which gl-5 oils can be substituted for the 50wt non detergent engine oil or the 90wt mineral oil, so unless one is not sure, he should continue using what was called for in the original specs. So, you might ask, “why change and go against the spec?” simple, 1) 50 wt non detergent engine oil and 90wt mineral oil is very hard to find. 2) you will get a lot more protection, and cooler operation than the originally called-for products. 3) for convenience sake, one oil meets all of those application requirements. It is for those reasons that I can confidently recommend one product to fit all of those needs: swepco 210 - 80w140 gear oil, it has proven itself in those applications for decades...
Click to expand...

So, what I am interpreting here, is that swepco 210 80w140 gear oil is ideal for use in a typical Dana 20/300 transfer case, as used in IH vehicles. Is this correct?
 
Erik,

yes, that is correct.....we are finally getting through that the swepco 210 is a true multi-graded gear oil which can be used in manual transmissions, transfer cases and both differentials. It is the oil of choice for those applications by IHPA.
 
Your best bet would be to order it from IHPA, however if that is too inconvenient because of high price and freight charges, you could check some of the high performance off-road supply stores in your area. Quite a few of them use the 210 in "baja"-type cars, along with other swepco products. I would suggest using an internet search for shops which might include going all the way down into orange county, and calling them to find out if they have it in stock. Imho that would be a lot more troublesome, and probably more expensive than purchasing it from IHPA.

Sorry I couldn't be more specific, as the covina area is not in my territory....so, I hope that helps.
 
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