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    Owner/Operator

No Spark on EFI Traveler

cbmind

Member
1980 traveler
1982 345 v8 out of a bus with 68k miles
junkyard GM TBI with duraspark/ IH Holley converted distributor
GM 8 pin module
msd blaster 2 coil
GM 7747 computer
afi chip and harness
msd bluemax wires
autolite 85 spark plugs
kwikwire 20+ circuit chassis harness
good fuses

no spark. Brought #8 cylinder to tdc, stabbed sitributor, wired plug wires to firing order. Did not pull valve cover on passenger side to verify tdc, used a wooden dowel and "feel."

have verified power in both key on and start positions on pink wire from computer to + coil, pink wire from c+ GM 8 pin module, and chassis harness (kwikwire) 12+ positive to coil positive. Orange/ violet wires from duraspark pickup n distributor to p/n terminal on GM 8 pin. No spark. Tried plugging in a new GM 8 pin I had laying around also.

Truck cranks strong. would a miss stab on the distributor create a no run situation? It doesn't even sound like it wants start. No backfires or anything. Just turns over.

Am pulling the passenger valve cover tonight, pull distributor, and follow procedure in sticky and restab distributor.

Anything else I should look for? This May be a half efi/ ignition tech thread question. Not sure.

Thank you.
 

int77345

Member
Did you pull a plug out and crank it with it still hooked up to the plug wire to make sure the plug isn't firing ?
 

Scoutboy74

Moderator
Remember that with any 4-stroke engine, each piston will be at tdc twice. Once on compression and once on exhaust. So if you happened to be at tdc on the exhaust stroke when you timed to #8, you would be 180 degrees out. You need to be at tdc on the compression or power stroke. This is evidence by compressed air exiting the spark plug hole as the piston comes up. But even being timed 180 degrees off wouldn't prevent the spark plugs from sparking. They don't care if the timing is right or not.
 

cbmind

Member
remember that with any 4-stroke engine, each piston will be at tdc twice. Once on compression and once on exhaust. So if you happened to be at tdc on the exhaust stroke when you timed to #8, you would be 180 degrees out. You need to be at tdc on the compression or power stroke. This is evidence by compressed air exiting the spark plug hole as the piston comes up. But even being timed 180 degrees off wouldn't prevent the spark plugs from sparking. They don't care if the timing is right or not.
Understood. Didn't get around to completing it last night. What I did do was make a piston stop tool out of an old spark plug, screwed into #8, removed distributor, rolled crank clockwise till it stopped, made a Mark at driver side of timing pointer edge, rolled counter clockwise and dis the same. Rolled it back to where the balancer timing groove was lined up to zero on the timing pointer. Removed piston stop tool. This puts the zero on pointer directly half way between these two marks, to me this verifies the piston is at tdc on compression stroke. Was significantly harder on final rotation on lining up balncer timing Mark to zero on timing pointer. Does this make sense? Am I on the right path? Stabbed distributor and left it for the night. Have to pick up a replacement plug.
 

Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
Your procedure only gets you tdc not tdc on compression stroke.
Better to pull the plug and then put finger over the hole and use a button or screwdriver to bump the starter a little at a time till the compression pushes your finger off the hole.
Then the timing Mark should be close to 0.
Just line it up and then check rotor.

The rotor should be at the trailing edge of the cap terminal and the reluctor should be centered on the pickup with the timing at tdc.

Pickup wires should be purple to p and org to n.

Curious why you went with afi for parts and tune after using all the info here to build a system?
I offer everything needed and probably cheaper.
 

cbmind

Member
your procedure only gets you tdc not tdc on compression stroke.
Better to pull the plug and then put finger over the hole and use a button or screwdriver to bump the starter a little at a time till the compression pushes your finger off the hole.
Then the timing Mark should be close to 0.
Just line it up and then check rotor.

The rotor should be at the trailing edge of the cap terminal and the reluctor should be centered on the pickup with the timing at tdc.



Pickup wires should be purple to p and org to n.

Curious why you went with afi for parts and tune after using all the info here to build a system?
I offer everything needed and probably cheaper.

Will check again. I seem to have no luck this time with your procedure. Fingers numb from the cold maybe:)

parts are old. Removed dystem for engine replacement, failed to relable adequately. New chassis harness installed as well. Did conversion 5 years ago. Will need abother custom chip soon due to more recent mods. Will be sure to give you a call. Thanks for the advice..
 

Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
If you have a cork or even a tight wad of paper it will work just as good in the hole.
Just bump till it pops out then set to tdc.
 

cbmind

Member
So I made a bump switch (long time coming), removed #8 plug, placed finger over plug hole, bumped motor till it blew my finger off. Result in pic below.

After noting this, removed cap and took a pic of my distributor. Rotor is pointing between terminals 7 and 5 on the distributor.

Current wiring situation.

So I tried to start it, again no start.
Brought #8 to tdc using same method above, removed distributor, rolled rotor so tip was pointing at #8 terminal on cap when installed. Re- installed distributor. Tightened distributor down.
Tried to start, no go. Engine continues only to turn over.
Removed coil wire at distributor cap and held end near passenger side valve cover. Coil throws a healthy spark during cranking.
On another note, was only getting 6psi fuel pressure on crank, adjusted Holley fuel pressure regulator to 12.5psi on crank. Using Holley electric fuel pump, red one I think.
Noticed fuel injectors are firing, fuel is being returned to tank.

Any thoughts, next step?

Thanks for the suggestions. Think I've nailed down that the timing is dead on. But maybe not???

Thank you!
 

Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
Based on your post I have lots of questions.
1. Did you follow the faqs to gather the parts for your system?
2. What are the specs for that pump? Isn't that a carb rated pump and not an efi pump?
3. What regulator? The throttle body has the regulator built in so no external regulator is needed. There should not be a second regulator. If you only have 6psi then you have a problem.
4. I'm confused how you set the distr.
You need to set it on tdc again. Then look and see what cap terminal the rotor is pointing at and move the plug wires so that is now #8. Then insert the rest clockwise in order. 84365721
5. The reluctor wheel should also be centered on the pickup while the rotor is pointing at #8.
Set these and then take a pic from above the distr showing the alignment. It helps to make a Mark on the distr housing where the #8 cap terminal is located.
 

cbmind

Member
based on your post I have lots of questions.
Responses in red
1. Did you follow the faqs to gather the parts for your system?
Yes, system installed five years ago with no issues. Bought converted distributor from chris pucci here on the forum, afi TBI harness and chip, other parts sourced from junkyard, off of 89' Chevy 1500 silverado w/ 5.7l. Throttle body sent off to turbo specialties in CA for rebuild prior to installation. Afi harness bought from afiin order to ease installation and get custom chip for my application.
2. What are the specs for that pump? Isn't that a carb rated pump and not an efi pump?
from website-
tumble polished billet look
lower housing casting designed for enhanced fuel flow and quiet operation
motor draws only 3 amps current
7 1/2 amp fuse recommended
improved design for street/strip applications
distinctive “blue” logo
flows 110 gph (free flow)
flows 88 gph at 9 psi
maximum pressure is 14 psi
includes p/n 12-803 fuel pressure regulator
provides constant fuel flow with no pulsation
has externally accessible pressure relief valve (max 14 psi)
rotor/vane pump design is more tolerant of contaminated fuels
weighs only 3 lbs
includes mounting bracket
repair kits are readily available
can be serviced from the pump end
not compatible with alcohol or methanol fuels
use of safety shut-off switch, p/n 12-810, strongly recommended
https://www.Holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_pumps_regulators_and_filters/fuel_pumps/carbureted_electric_fuel_pumps/parts/12-802-1
Not designed or recommended for use with fuel injection systems- go figure.

3. What regulator? The throttle body has the regulator built in so no external regulator is needed. There should not be a second regulator. If you only have 6psi then you have a problem.
I have 12.5psi after regulator, before throttle body now. Last crank was done with this pressure. Using this regulator-
https://www.Holley.com/products/fue...regulators/carbureted_regulators/parts/12-803

4. I'm confused how you set the distr.
You need to set it on tdc again. Then look and see what cap terminal the rotor is pointing at and move the plug wires so that is now #8. Then insert the rest clockwise in order. 84365721
I removed the number 8 plug. Made bump switch, installed. Bumped starter over till I felt compression blow my finger of off plug hole. Balancer groove Mark was at that point lined up with 0 on timing pointer on front timing cover. Removed distributor, lined up rotor tip with terminal I wanted to make #8 cylinder, and re- installed. Plug wires rechecked for correct wiring. No worky.
5. The reluctor wheel should also be centered on the pickup while the rotor is pointing at #8.
Set these and then take a pic from above the distr showing the alignment. It helps to make a Mark on the distr housing where the #8 cap terminal is located.
I've read the above several times over on other boards with pictures, and still don't get this in regards to the reluctor wheel being centered on the pickup. Will do what I think it is and try it. Take pics.

Thank you bill for your help and patience.
 

Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
Here's a few pics to show how the rotor and reluctor should be aligned with the crank at tdc #8.
Make sure you are on the compression stroke and the rotor goes clockwise from #8.

The rotor should be just past the cap terminal.



Then pop the cap and the reluctor wheel should be lined up with the center of the pickup.






For your regulator, it should be set to it's highest pressure and then the throttle body regulator should maintain pressure at about 12psi.
I have concerns that pump will not flow enough for the efi system. As you discovered it is not and efi pump. And not one of the recommended pumps. All you can do is try it and log data and see if the fuel leans out as you drive.

If you have spark and it's at the right time, and you have fuel, it will start.
The ECM isn't even needed for the spark so if it is good and the timing is correct then you could pour a little gas in the top and it would fire up just like a carb.

If you do have spark while cranking then that means you can hook up a timing light to #8 and check the timing while cranking and see how far your off, but do not move the distr until we know everything is correct.
Can you take a pic of the wires from the distr to the ignition module?
 

cbmind

Member
Bill, here's a picture of my current wiring at the ignition coil, module, and distributor,

Here's a picture showing the rotor position relative to the reluctor. This is with the #8 cylinder at tdc prior to changing rotor phase. A before picture

Again, putting engine at tdc, here's an after picture after correcting (I think) rotor phasing relative to the reluctor. Corrected spark plug wiring afterwards to accomodate new #8 location. Also, after correcting rotor phase, when reluctor was centered on pick up, my rotor was not pointing off to the side as you stated that it should be. Mine was dead nuts.

Tried it out, no go.
Pulled #8 plug wire at spark plug, getting strong spark.
Don't have a timing light, guess I left it somewhere between here and Nevada.
Buying one tonight.
Suggestions? Cranked up fuel regulator, holding strong at 13psi on crank.
Will check timing after I pick up the timing light tonight. Will hook it up on #8 wire at plug and crank. Should the timing (blue wire) connector at 8 pin module be disconnected for this?

Extremely aggravating.

Thanks bill,

chris
 

Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
Chris,
your changing things but I don't think you understand how they should be and what to set them to.
I posted pics showing how they need to be when the crank is at tdc #8. They both have to be just as shown at the same time.

You set the crank...just to make sure, you should be using the last cylinder on the passengers side, that is #8

Mark the location of the #8 cap terminal on the distr housing so you can see it when the cap is removed.

Pop the cap and now rotate the distr so the rotor is just as shown in the pic I posted. Just to the trailing edge of where the terminal is in the cw direction.
Now lock down the distr housing and do not move it.

Now set the reluctor so the spoke is centered on the pickup as shown in the pics.
These both need to be correct at the same time without moving the distr.

Now trace the wires fro the pickup to the ignition module.
The purple stripe goes to p and the org stripe goes to n.

Now put the rotor and cap on and check timing.
If you can't see the timing Mark then connect to #5 plug wire and see if you see it.
If so then you are 180 out on the distr wires.
 

cbmind

Member
Followed the steps to a t. Still not starting. Timing light connected on #8, strobe from light indicates timing is at zero.

Fwiw, coil is a msd blaster 2, pn 8203 with advertised .7 ohms primary and 4.5k ohms secondary resistance. Didn't give that info earlier.

Not sure what to try next. Will check my circuits/ wiring again for now.

Have faltered and not hooked up lap top to confirm voltage readings at sensors. May be of some use.

Thank you
 

Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
If you hold the coil wire about 1" away from the manifold you should get a good blue spark jumping as you crank the engine.
 

cbmind

Member
if you hold the coil wire about 1" away from the manifold you should get a good blue spark jumping as you crank the engine.
It does. Seems like everything is working, just not at the right time. Will hook up laptop today and run winaldl and see what the computer has to say.
 

Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
That's fine but I'll stress this again:
the computer has nothing to do with spark and does not affect timing until the engine is above 400rpm.

So if there is a problem with timing it's in the distr setup not the computer.
Lets start from scratch and do not do anything I do not tell you to do.
If at anytime you are not sure then call me.
36zero96929two5

pull the last plug on the passengers side and put your finger over the hole tightly. Bump the starter just a little each time until the air literally pushed your finger off the hole.
There will be no doubt when it is coming up on compression.

As soon as you feel it then stop and look at the crank Mark.
Rotate the crank by hand with a 15/16 socket in a clock wise direction until the timing Mark is at 0.

Now pop the cap and take a pic from above the distr.
Do not move anything.
 

cbmind

Member
Understood. Couldn't get the best shot so I took multiples. Here's the result.




Next step?

Thanks bill. May call in a few to expedite if that's ok.
 

cbmind

Member
Hi bill, I wanted to extend a hand of gratitude for your assistance. It's people like you who keep this IH community thriving and preserving our internationals.

Thank you!

Also, to update this thread-

have spark, engine fires with gas poured down the throttle body. With pedal to the floor, cranking the engine, will fire. Vehicle will not start on it's own without gas dumped through the throttle body. Last time trying to start it, paid attention to the injectors- they're pouring gas during run. On crank they will spray.

I have a spare cts laying around, as well as an old Ford external fuel pump. 6- 1/2 dozen the other... Believe it to be the wrong-application-for-me Holley blue fuel pump. The old one I have is handy to sqap, will try that first and remove my Holley regulator, then plumb lines directly to TBI.

Oh, and replaced my spark plig wires..

Thank you!
 
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