MSD boxes

Mastiff

Member
What do you guys think about using an msd ignition box on a 152, otherwise factory? I'm generally skeptical of these types of things, especially after blowing a bunch of money on jacobs stuff a while back, but then these engines are 40+ year old technology. Maybe a little more spark would be noticeable when you're starting with points?
 
I run the msd-6a box in every street performance setup I run. My Scout is one that is not running one yet but the 6a will fire through any tough application. I found that it improves low end the most on basically stock street vehicles and top end on high hp engines.

Can be triggered with oem points or a converted pertronix dizzy.
 
I will say...in the last several years, the overall quality of the msd stuff has improved dramatically. There was a point in time when I felt that quality-wise, most of their stuff was shit, for that reason I used alotta crane stuff which is identical in functionality.

Even in 2004 I had some major issues with msd quality and their so-called "customer service". But things have changed in the last few years and I don't feel the same, they have won me back as a customer when I need "stuff". But mallory is certainly their equal.

Crane stuff is history now though many of their products are still available, pertronix bought some of the cranes remnants out of the bankruptcy deal.

Jacobs went down the tube quite some time ago, they are now only a small "name" used for a few products as part of acccel which is in turn part of the prestolite performance operation today (as is mallory). The jacobs take on capacitive discharge add-on systems was quite different in design from the other folks, but they died because their quality and customer service was non-existent, and they certainly were not competitive price-wise.
 
I'm glad you guys like the msd since I decided to go for it. I sprung for the "off road" version of the 6. I plan to just trigger with the points.

I did read complaints about the reliability, but with points I could wire it up such that bypassing the msd and going back to plain points would be easy. Not that I wouldn't be irritated, but at least I wouldn't be stranded.

Anyone know if it's okay to use +12 that goes through the resistance wire for the msd key switch input? I imagine it's only used to enable the msd and doesn't sink any significant current, so the resistance wouldn't matter. That would make the wiring trivial. Running a non-resistance version of the key switch "I" might be a pain, at least if I wanted it to look clean.
 
Switched b+ and the "resistance feed" aren't hardly the same! Do not use the resistance feed!

Follow the directions, the system will work. The directions say "switched b+", not a reduced voltage switched feed.

An advantage of using any add-on cd box with breaker points is the same advantage when used with the old "transistorized" systems, they simply reduce current across the breaker points so they can last longer carrying only milliamps instead of 3>4 amps. But "last longer" is marketing hype...yes current is reduced, so then the rubbing block wears out just as fast so the net result, points have to be replaced inna maintenance cycle!

Breaker points need to go away man...the first thing that needs to happen! A complete electronic ignition system does not use breaker points or any form of an electro-mechanical switch. The breaker points are the weak link and should be the first item upgraded,...with breaker points a steady/solid/repeatable timing signal will never be achieved. An electronic trigger provides a solid/rock-steady/accurate timing signal and that is the key to idle quality and overall performance regarding a spark-ignition engine.

As described in the performance ignition thread, here's the "system" in component format:

1) electronic trigger distributor (hall effect (pertronix), optical, or magnetic trigger) in verified mechanical condition. The pertronix iii (former crane xri) will not trigger an add-on cd box!!!!
2) aftermarket six series capacitive discharge box (msd/crane/mallory/accel/etc.).
3) aftermarket "e" core ignition coil (low resistance primary specification, between 0.4 and 1.0 ohms.
4) harness wiring of minimum 14 gauge (12 gauge preferred) for providing no possible issue with voltage drop throughout the wiring connections along with suitable high quality connectors/terminations.
5) secondary cabling utilizing the now common "spiral" or "helical"-wound conductor technology with silicone boots treated with appropriate boot grease; rated for efi suppression without resorting to a resistance value exceeding 100 ohms per foot of length.
 
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Got my msd box and coil today. Hooked everything up loosely in about 30 minutes and it fired up instantly! Much smoother idle and nearly insensitive to choke position, unlike before. What a satisfying upgrade!

I'll spend hours getting it mounted and routed cleanly, but I couldn't wait to see how it would run. I'll have to make sure my spark gap is appropriate too.
 
I have been working on getting a 62 Scout 80 running and have spent a couple of frustrating weekends trying to get the engine to show any sign of firing. I was rebuilding the carb so most of these attmpts were made using starting fluid sprayed directly into the manifold.

I have replaced both batery cables and added an extra ground from the battery/frame to the head via a bolt on the alternator bracket. I removed and cleaned the original ground strap located near the starter motor. I replaced the starter as the original turned the engine only slowly and it kicked the breaker on the starter tester at the parts store. I had also removed the distributor and coil components to clean all mating surfaces to insure they are well grounded.

I am also fairly confident that I had the plugs connected in the correct order and that the distributor rotor on the number one plug was synchronized with cyl#1 at tdc.

Last weekend it seemed on the verge of briefly firing up - it was sputtering a bit - but I didn't get the burst I have experienced with the 345 on starting fluid.

I pulled the #4 plug (cause it was long enough to hold against a fire-wall bolt while reaching in to turn teh key) and while it had a spark it seemed fairly anemic.

So I have read with interest this and other threads on ingnition upgrades. I particularly liked the succinct "component format" list of michael mayben's "system".

I am planning on bulding a system like this (have already acquired an msd 6a/6200) but I have a couple questions about items in the list...

First, why an e-core coil (I.e. Msd blaster-ss w/ 70:1 windings) as opposed to say a msd blaster-2 w/ 100:1 winding ratio? (item #3)

item#5, calls for secondary wiring "rated for efi suppression without resorting to a resistance value value exceeding 100 ohms per foot" but most of the higher-end helical/spiral core wires I have found have resistance values of 500 ohms per foot.
What wires (brand/prod#) would you recommend?
 
Before performing any ignition system upgrade ya gotta make the motor run on whatcha got now. The upgrades won't "fix" anything that's broke!

The oem ignition system is far more than adequate to provide a stable signal for these engines if the distributor is not worn out, if the dwell is correct, if the base timing is ballpark, if the ignition coil is the correct primary value, if the battery is up top snuff during cranking output, if the switched primary feed voltages ("start" and "run") are correct, etc.

So let's make it run now and then upgrade after ya know the motor is gonna be a user!

Any "e-core" coil is far more efficient in actual operation than any canister-style coil. And far more durable also. Any canister coil is internally insulated with either pitch (tar) or oil and is subject to leakage when installed in a "lay down" manner as found oem on both IH stuff as well as chrysler apps. I personally have no use for the "epoxy" insulated conventional canister coils since they are nowhere near as efficient as an epoxy (or other type polymer potting) e-core coil.

The coil primary resistance ranges used with any add-on capacitive discharge conversions are designed to take advantage of the "step-up/transformer" design element provided only through the capacitive discharge boxes, canister coil primary resistance factors are limited, to nonexistent, so therefore one of the major advantages to the cd system is negated!

We can't run a coil with a primary resistance down in the 0.2ohms range on a street cd system , but those work beautifully on drag race stuff where the engines run no more than maybe 30 seconds total at a time. Super-low primary resistance coils will go up in flames when run more than a few minutes at a time without cooldown. The perfect coil match for any of the cd boxes is a coil with a primary resistance factor of between 0.4 and 0.7 ohms. A coil in that range must be used with either an add-on cd box, or is used with a "modern" computer-controlled ignition system with a crank/cam trigger setup,...those coils cannot be used with a pertronix, a crane conversion, a mallory unilite, a straight mag trigger conversion, etc. The "tfi" and "duraspark" version of e-core coils are wound with a different primary resistance factor compared to the versions used with any of the cd boxes,...yes, they are a vast improvement over canister coils, but are not suitable to use with cd boxes but work well with mag trigger conversions in stand-alone mode primarily for GM-based efi setups.

The "per foot" resistance factor regarding the spiral wound (for rfi suppression) secondary cables is my own subjective "opinion". Some of the cable manufacturers don't publish that data, but it's not real critical! But, we can't use "zero resistance" cables (as in stainless or copper inner conductor) on the street driven cd systems with the high energy coils either, the cd boxes do not like that stuff! But they are used with the full digital system in drag and circle track stuff with the correct cd ignition system (with all the bells and whistles). They also aren't considered "legal" for street use due to the rfi/radiation issue.

I'm using more and more of the msd "street fire" value line universal cable sets now in my work. The pre-terminated end connections are just as durable as the accel stuff and I like the black color for use where someone does not want the flash of the red, blue, or yellow jacket color of the other bands. I so no advantage whatsoever of using the 8.5mm stuff unless ya simply have it. The cables are far superior to any cable used oem all the way through the mid-90's and if a "spark plug boot puller" (along with boot grease which is imperative) is used to remove the silicone boots from the spark plugs when needed, they are a lifetime investment.

The msd cables are about $5 a set less for the same item from accel in my local market. The next step up in the msd cable offerings again is a total waste in my book. There is a tremendous amount of hype that surrounds all the "spark plug cable" business!
 
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Robert, what brand/part# plug are you running in your 152?


Champion
rj12yc

one note specific to zinc plated plugs vs black oxide coated. The zinc will give you a nice heat reading while not having much color. Black gives you nothing untill the insulator colors.
 
champion
rj12yc

one note specific to zinc plated plugs vs black oxide coated. The zinc will give you a nice heat reading while not having much color. Black gives you nothing untill the insulator colors.

I found my old order from 3/08 and I have autolite ap85 plugs in there. Any opinion on those plugs for this application?

I'm still getting the occasional miss at idle while warming up, so I'm trying to run that down. Reading some other forum posts people claimed the wrong plugs could make a huge difference.

I'm also still triggering the msd from points. I could change to a pertronix which might improve things.

The distributor is one of the few components on this vehicle I haven't replaced or rebuilt. How likely is it that the delco distributor itself is in bad condition?
 
Probably the cheapest swap you can do. No problems with the ones I am running and on the stock original coil and dizzy.

85's come up ofter but I like champions since they are all me seem to run it our birds. If the faa says they are ok I suppose they are fine on the ground.
 
probably the cheapest swap you can do. No problems with the ones I am running and on the stock original coil and dizzy.

85's come up ofter but I like champions since they are all me seem to run it our birds. If the faa says they are ok I suppose they are fine on the ground.

You're talking about the plugs, right, not the pertronix? Are you still running the points on your Scout?

On the plug gap, I just checked them all and they are currently at 0.035. Should I push the gap a little wider with the msd? I thought the name of the game was to push for the widest gap where you still get reliable spark.

Thanks for the help.

Are you an a&p then?
 
You're talking about the plugs, right, not the pertronix? Are you still running the points on your Scout?
Yes, I was refering to plugs. Yep, still old school, points at the present time

On the plug gap, I just checked them all and they are currently at 0.035. Should I push the gap a little wider with the msd? I thought the name of the game was to push for the widest gap where you still get reliable spark.

I run .035 probably out of habit from tuning high compression engines but tough to break me of the that one. Usually run .025 on magnetos and .035 om msd and good coil(not the typical oil filled can type). I like mallory promaster coils. Msd e-coils are great too.



Are you an a&p then?

Yes, I have both tickets. Had them since 92'.
 
Yes, I have both tickets. Had them since 92'.

Cool. I come from the pilot side. Owned an aviat husky for about 13 years, collected my commercial, instrument and sea plane ratings. After about 1200 hours I just grew tired of the expense, dealing with medicals and security. Sold the plane about 2 years ago. My Dad sold beechcrafts for most of my childhood.

After messing with 4x4's, it's frustrating all the things you can't legally do to an airplane, though many guys didn't fully follow the letter on that.
 
Michael, in your experience, would there be a noticeable difference going from points to pertronix with the msd box? Although points wear, they seem less likely to fail catastrophically...
 
The msd box is a capacitive discharge system, provides far more plug gap ionization energy that any inductive system can even think about. But...it needs a reliable, repetitive trigger to provide a stable timing signal and breaker points are not that item.

Breaker points used with the cd box will last virtually forever since they carry nearly no current now. But the rubbing block wears continuously, which in turn changes the timing over time.

The electronic trigger wears not at all, timing never changes and is far more stable once the endplay in the distributor is set correctly and the mechanical advance unit wear is within limits.

Using breaker points today in modern tuning of these engines is a bandaid. And to take advantage of the msd box you need a matching coil for the box. All this information is covered in this thread that is continuously expanding. In the next few days I'll be adding the pertronix conversion on a four cylinder delco distributor to that thread as one just came in this evening for a rebuild:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/644-ignition-system-performance-upgrades.html
 
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