Motor Oil By Dr AE Haas

[jauringer]

Afternoon guys, I hope everyone had a great 4th!

I wanted to discuss an article I ran across in some oil related research I was doing. This guy seems to be well respected in quite a few other enthusiast sites but I didn't run across his name once doing a search here so I though I would share. I guess he could be described as an oil fanatic and I found one his very interesting articles on the subject. His name seems to pop up in oil related discussion all over the web and on sports car sites. He looks to be the resident oil guy over at one of the ferrari sites too. In a lot of areas it would completely change the way I looked at motor oil. It's long so if oil doesn't interest you I doubt you'll read it but I would like to discuss everyone's opinion with the folks here if possible. Mr. Swepco, most of all I would love to hear your opinion on what he has to say.

His name is dr ae haas,

about the author:
dr. Haas is a physician and surgeon. He graduated from the university of florida with a degree in biochemistry with honors. He studied motor oils since high school where he did independent studies on this topic. He studied the properties of viscosity.

When he was a general surgery resident in chapel hill he studied the flow mechanics of human blood. Today he continues his research by discussion of oil products with chemists in the field and chemists from the oil manufacturers.

He has personal racing experience in formula super vee. He is his own lamborghini and ferrari as well as mercedes mechanic

article is here: motor oil 101-201


Thanks guys,
jason

 

[Greg R]

I came across his articles in around 1998 or 97. He has definitely done some homework, and has used sae sources I'm sure he bought at the sae website. Very good overall, and a good source for informed owners.

I do take exception with this though: [url"=motor oil becomes permanently thicker with exposure to northerly winter type weather. This is more of a problem to mineral based oils. Waxes form. This is why it is a bad idea to even store a bottle of oil in a cold garage. It goes bad on the garage self just because it is exposed to the cold."]motor oil becomes permanently thicker with exposure to northerly winter type weather. This is more of a problem to mineral based oils. Waxes form. This is why it is a bad idea to even store a bottle of oil in a cold garage. It goes bad on the garage self just because it is exposed to the cold."[/url]

I suppose it could regard oils with marginal base stock or additives. Like anything, you can have a product with the best ingredients and the additives biz is an industry to their own. Many lubricant sellers buy it for their product, some make their own proprietary chemistry.

 

[jauringer]

I came across his articles in around 1998 or 97. He has definitely done some homework, and has used sae sources I'm sure he bought at the sae website. Very good overall, and a good source for informed owners.

I do take exception with this though: [url"=motor oil becomes permanently thicker with exposure to northerly winter type weather. This is more of a problem to mineral based oils. Waxes form. This is why it is a bad idea to even store a bottle of oil in a cold garage. It goes bad on the garage self just because it is exposed to the cold."]motor oil becomes permanently thicker with exposure to northerly winter type weather. This is more of a problem to mineral based oils. Waxes form. This is why it is a bad idea to even store a bottle of oil in a cold garage. It goes bad on the garage self just because it is exposed to the cold."[/url]

I suppose it could regard oils with marginal base stock or additives. Like anything, you can have a product with the best ingredients and the additives biz is an industry to their own. Many lubricant sellers buy it for their product, some make their own proprietary chemistry.

Hey greg, thanks for sharing. I tell ya, after looking at his flow vs pressure vs bypass "pop off" numbers, it makes you want to drain the 20w50 and put a 5w30 in!

After the article I ran a few figures on my rig and the flow of my current oil is maxed out @ +/-2300rpm (about where my bypass starts to open.) 1200 @ cold startup. Sounds like I could get much better high rpm (really overall) flow numbers if I went with lighter oil.

I've heard it over and over again 10w30 is too thin for IH's. @ 212deg it provides the very same protection as a straight 30w which was recommended by IH. However, the 10w30 would give better start up protection than the straight 30. In that case why aren't we all trying to run 0w30 and get great protection? I don't think many people here would dare run a 0w30 in an IH?


Oils are not something I've spent a lot of time studying. The great articles here are my extent really. Needless to say this has really peaked my curiosity in the facts regarding what's most appropriate. Specifically in a newly rebuilt sv.

It's raised so many questions, I figured this would be a great place to discuss it and of course like you gave discuss reasons people would disagree with his data.

Jason

 

[Greg R]

You touched on some good points. Viscosity is a big one. We have to think what the oil is at operating temperature, and for the most part viscosity numbers are assigned with samples pretty close to the operating temperature range. Still for most of us, and those remembering the light, medium, and heavy oils, it's almost thinking in reverse, we tend to think of what it's like heating up, when actually it's more like what are the properties in cooling down from operating temp. Add to that there are hundreds of differences in oil depending on where it came from, plus what base stocks are used which makes huge differences price wise and good or not so good qualities; then the additives play in to keep them close to equal in performance.

More oil pressure in a system doesn't mean more bearing support, the actual pressures in the bearing area are independent of a supply pressure, and the flow's main job is heat removal. More pressure than is needed or recommended is just more engine drag.

I stay with close to original spec viscosity wise. 0 weight is only for extremely cold conditions on these engines, and there is probably a lot more mass working through those bearings with more clearance, say also from age, that they will need the film strength a lighter oil can't give.

 

[DF Sales&Marketing]

Sorry to get back a little late on this, I was offline for a few days.......

The l o o o o o n g article in question by dr. Haas went pretty deep, it was well researched and gave information to the layman that probably would not be known.

Since it primarily presents the facts of “flow vs. Viscosity” I need to tell you that “flow” is very important, and a well-known, but little discussed subject in the oil industry. But “viscosity” is the commonly accepted guideline on oil recommendations by the oems, and the api. The lengthy opinion, based on his personal research is meaningful about “flow.”

“true synthetics” - old definition, not the regurgitated products (legally and misleading) made from petro-stocks, or even the paos (semi-synthetics) have better flow characteristics over a broad temperature range. They do not contain viscosity improvers which are used in group I and group II products because they do not need them, and shearing is not a problem.

There are many other factors besides flow which are present in the higher quality engine oils such as: “wetability” - how the oil clings to hot metal for more protection, especially in the cam lobe/lifter area. “detergency” - (synthetic oils are naturally high in solvency) which is especially important in keeping new/rebuilt engines clean, as well as going to work on older, sludged/varnished up engines. “heat” - today’s engines run at higher than 212 deg f due to emissions requirements even though the optimal engine performance figures are generally given to be 184.4 deg f; 40% of engine cooling is performed by engine oil whether it is water cooled or air cooled. “true synthetics” as well as high quality (like swepco) oils have those capabilities. Some synthetic oils, as well as some mineral based oils should not be used in engines with flat tappet cams due to a lack of/not enough friction protection.

The article, as mentioned is good for its content, but just slightly dated as the automotive engine oil requirement for gasoline engines is now “sn” - it had some improvements, mainly in handling heat than it’s predecessor “sm.” the “major brand,” lower weight “sn” engine oils on the market are mostly paos (semi-synthetic) or “regurgitated” processed mineral oil stocks, group iii, which are allowed to be called synthetic.

As a side-note, gasoline engines prior to 2007, which called for “sl” or earlier can use the proper recommended weight with mineral base engine oils. Some oems specifically call for synthetic, and that is what should be used in those applications. It is estimated that 95% of automotive engine oil applications have the capability of doing very well with mineral based oils.....providing that the oil meets the application specification and is not what might be described as a “bargain brand.” (you get what you pay for is the warning here). So even tho an oil label says it meets the spec, there can be a lot of junk products on the shelf. The api has taken a more serious step about finding these and warning the consumers as well as imposing stiff penalties on the marketers of such products.
Think integrity.

 

[jauringer]

Thanks mr. Swepco. I appreciate you taking the time to post. I hope you had a good 4th.

In the very short time I've been tinkering with old cars as a hobby, I thought pressure was everything (with in reason) so I've always used oil that gave me the most pressure, period. I guess I just thought the more pressure in the oil gallery is what pushed the bearings apart from the journals. I thought flow cooled the engine and carried contaminants away and that's about it. This article basically tells me I have no idea what I'm thinking and flow is where the protection is, not just a bunch of pressure.


I have a follow up ? Regarding my comments in post #3.

He shows that even zero weight oil is too thick to flow properly in a cold engine. However, being that it's closer to the viscosity of a hot 30wt over a 5,10,20,30 weight, is there any reason that I wouldn't want to run a 0w30 (or 5w30) synthetic?

I guess I no longer understand why most of us IH'ers choose to run a 15w40 or 20w50 unless we're just talking about a really worn out engine.


Thanks,
jason

 

[DF Sales&Marketing]

Sorry once again for the delay, we were out of town and didn't back until Tuesday night.

Follow-up:

"I have a follow up ? Regarding my comments in post #3.

He shows that even zero weight oil is too thick to flow properly in a cold engine. However, being that it's closer to the viscosity of a hot 30wt over a 5,10,20,30 weight, is there any reason that I wouldn't want to run a 0w30 (or 5w30) synthetic?

I guess I no longer understand why most of us IH'ers choose to run a 15w40 or 20w50 unless we're just talking about a really worn out engine."

remember that the official definition of viscosity is "resistance to flow" - that is what this post is all about.

As mentioned earlier, the oem's have based their recommendations on viscosity and not flow, thinking at the time that a straight 30 weight oil would meet the requirements for the proper weight oil in IH engines. We now have a problem with that since straight 30 weight oil is getting harder to find, and it as well, is not the best choice to use since the modern multi-grade oils came out, which give better protection from wear at all temperatures.

The thing that concerns me with too much flow is heat dissipation, especially around the bearing areas at higher rpms. IH engines are not noted for high revving, so that May be a moot point. However the modern 0w30 or even for that matter 5w30 or 10w30 sm or sn rated engine oils do not have the right amount of zddp for protection of the cam and lifters. The synthetics, even the semi synthetics utilize an additive package which will include the right amount of zddp for the grade they are producing, but these are all "new generation" oils and I do not recommend using them in the older (pre 2007) engines which require sl or earlier, which IH engines fall under.

So, with that being said, you are between a rock and a hard place looking for more flow, and maintaining a 30wt viscosity at operating temperatures. My personal recommendation would be to stick with the dinosaur oil, preferably swepco 306, in the weight of your choice (depending on the ambient temperatures you use the vehicle in), but I would limit it to 10w30, 15w40 or 20w50 to use it in the appropriate climate. Imho I would just forget about the "flow" concept, it is not going to make much difference in a daily driver, or in an older rig.

IHPA uses and sells mostly swepco 306 20w50 in the rigs they work on, but that would be a little heavy for the cold winter months in the northern parts of the country. Quite a few of the older IH engines on the road do very well with the heavier weight oils, but if you have a recently rebuilt, or new engine the 10w30 will do a great job.

Hope this helps.....