Lifter Questions

[Mastiff]

Re: The Lifter Thread

I think this is a good place to post this.

I'm rebuilding my 152 and I've never had any lifter issues with noise or anything, but since I had metal in my engine, and to be thorough, I thought I'd pull apart the lifters and make sure they are clean. I've been trying to follow the manual, but I find that the lifters are just totally solid and I can't compress them to remove the spring. I'm leaning my body weight into them and they won't budge. On one of them I popped the open end of the spring and then the piston moved up and pinched the closed end. I still can't even push that piston back to where it was. It's like they have a ton of pressure built up in them or something. Any thoughts? I wonder if this means the lifters are in good shape, or messed up somehow.

 

[ihpartsjeff]

Re: The Lifter Thread

If you're rebuilding the engine don't be cheap by not replacing the cam/lifters. What a waste it would be to spend all this time and money and then toss in older worn parts.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Re: The Lifter Thread

I'm absolutely with Jeff here. The IH oem lifters have some real heat treat issues. Especially in the cam area. Lobes are only case hardened to +/- .015". Everything will look fine until the case hardening id worn through then death comes quickly.

Late manufacture cams are deap induction hardened and will last for a very long time using new lifters.

The factory lifters and cam should be replaces regardless of visual inspection. Don't go cheap azz on this build after spending over $2k on your rebuild.

 

[Mastiff]

Re: The Lifter Thread

This is the first I've heard of replacing a "perfectly good" cam. I just can't stand to do that since I've got the whole bottom end put together plus front cover and pulley all together and sealed with rtv. I hear what you are saying but I just can't stand the though of tearing that all apart.

If you are willing to accept that, what's the thought on just replacing lifters? I suspect you're going to say that the cam and lifters have to go together or the thing will destroy itself, but I'll ask anyway.

And any ideas on my existing lifters? Is it right for them to be rock hard like that?

Thanks.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Re: The Lifter Thread

this is the first I've heard of replacing a "perfectly good" cam.

My answer to that statment is that how many people have done a oem cam hardness /depth profile??? I suppose no body in the IH world.. I don't deal with what everybody else "does" or "says". So I'll leave that alone.

If you are willing to accept that, what's the thought on just replacing lifters? I suspect you're going to say that the cam and lifters have to go together or the thing will destroy itself, but I'll ask anyway.

If I were to accept that,
1) I would put new johnson only lifters in it.
2) only oil the out side do not pump them up.

And any ideas on my existing lifters? Is it right for them to be rock hard like that?

Exactly the way they are supposed to be. Oil won't compress.
You need to load them for quite a while for them to colapse and once you release them they will be back to there prior state.

 

[Mastiff]

Re: The Lifter Thread

my answer to that statment is that how many people have done a oem cam hardness /depth profile??? I suppose no body in the IH world.. I don't deal with what everybody else "does" or "says". So I'll leave that alone.

Don't take that one the wrong way. I just meant to say that I wasn't knowingly ignoring that when I put my old cam in. I thought a cam that was shaped right was good to go. I have approximately zero prior experience with motors.

if I were to accept that,
1) I would put new johnson only lifters in it.
2) only oil the out side do not pump them up.

So you don't think it's catastrophically bad to have the non-matched wear patterns between cam and lifter then? I think this is the conventional wisdom.

exactly the way they are supposed to be. Oil won't compress. You need to load them for quite a while for them to colapse and once you release them they will be back to there prior state.

Can you explain this? If oil won't compress, then the only way to get that plunger down is for some oil to get out, right? In that case I'd think that once you got it down the first time, you could thereafter compress it without as much trouble. What's wrong with that reasoning?

Two of the lifters worked as the manual suggested. I turned them upside down for a while, then I was able to compress them without much effort, like just overcoming the spring.

I thought that these lifters needed to compress and uncompress a little each cycle to do their lash compensation job, how could it work if they just pumped up into solid chunks like they are now?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Robert Kenney]

Re: The Lifter Thread

So you don't think it's catastrophically bad to have the non-matched wear patterns between cam and lifter then? I think this is the conventional wisdom.

I won't comment on the life expectancy of an unknown cam given only a visual inspection. Each lobe needs to be measured for nose height and each heal needs to be checked in vee- blocks for proper ground in taper.
I would say that suggesting the cam be reused without personally inspecting it is reckless and I won't go there but many will, so take from that what you will.

Only if you can say without a doubt that the lifters have not been mixed at all and the cam verified would they be considered reusable.

Can you explain this? If oil won't compress, then the only way to get that plunger down is for some oil to get out, right? In that case I'd think that once you got it down the first time, you could thereafter compress it without as much trouble. What's wrong with that reasoning?

I thought that these lifters needed to compress and uncompress a little each cycle to do their lash compensation job, how could it work if they just pumped up into solid chunks like they are now?
Thanks for the help.

It is called the proper term is "leak down"
a lifter does not compress significantly under running valve spring load if working correctly. When they do, they tick. While the lifter is on the lobe heal, any oil that May leak by the piston is replenished and the solid filled height maintained.

Place the lifter face down in a drill press. Put a piece of 1/4" metal in the chuck and put the lifter plunger under load while watching the plunger. After it has receded remove the retainer. Release the load and remove the plunger assembly. Use carb cleaner to de-varnish the plunger and bore. Lightly re oil the plunger and return to the drill press, compress and reinstall the retainer. Repeat 8 times. The manual has a leak down/at load test that should be followed prior to be reinstalling.

Iirc when fully pumped up with oil @ 50 # they should take 20 seconds to move .100 ?????? I really don't remember since I rarely reuse them.